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Josh_Lesnik

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #100 on: January 11, 2011, 05:15:29 PM »

Didn't Art Hills redo Westmoreland in Wilmette?


Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2011, 05:17:52 PM »
He did.  And it's a bit of a disaster, based on my one play.  Decent greens the rest a confusing mess of a course.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JR Potts

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2011, 05:25:17 PM »

Didn't Art Hills redo Westmoreland in Wilmette?



 :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

The first fairway has squishy ground....that's pretty cool.

Dan Moore

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Top Ten Hidden In Plain Sight Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2011, 05:27:57 PM »
Old Elm is special in so many ways.  The only Colt designed Ross built course in the world that is 90% exactly like it was when it opened for play in 1914. 

Dan:  do you want to amend that to "the only conclusively proven Colt designed/Ross built course in the world"?

(I'm reasonably convinced at this point (albeit only by virtue of circumstantial evidence thusfar) that there is one more, not too far away...  :) )

Fair enough, I really haven't looked at the other course in any detail, but so far there is scant evidence of what Colt did there.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #104 on: January 11, 2011, 07:34:26 PM »
Other than it being a stone cold FACT that the club hired Colt in 1913 and that the boards of the two clubs were better than 50% the exact same guys at the time....it's not a gigantic logical leap to deduce what happened, IMO.   

Just ask Moriarity et al to get to the bottom of it...
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #105 on: January 11, 2011, 07:51:43 PM »
We all know that there's more to a country club than just the golf course, so how about a Top Social/Dining Private Clubs in Chicago.

1.  Butterfield:  I mean, the place is just humming with humanity all year 'round.  They do great bar and restaurant business, the pool is full of families and the golf course is always rocking.

2.  Medinah:  I've never seen the Oasis in any condition but full of people during the summer.  Sure, they have something like 1000 total members, but there's no question that Medinah delivers the product as well as any club in town.

3.  Bryn Mawr:  The food at Bryn is better than 75% of the restaurants downtown.  The level of service is astoundingly high, which isn't all that surprising for a Jewish club, where they will happily lose money on the restaurant operation as long as everything is el perfecto.

4.  North Shore:  This is probably the most successful Catholic club in town, with a full membership and lots of local members who use the facilities quite often.  They redid their clubhouse a few years ago and everything is club perfect, if there is such a thing.

5.  Olympia Fields:  Everything "matches" at Olympia.  The clubhouse is big, dramatic and inviting.  So are both golf courses.  So is the pool and the tennis courts.  So, for that matter, is the Maintenance facility.  The dining is just spectacular, with a great formal restaurant, an excellent mixed grill and the regular Tuesday "Raider" dinners where a different member picks out the menu every week and service is family style.  Quite possibly the single best member golf/dining tradition in Chicagoland.


I'll stop there and ask for others to fill in the remaining five, because I don't do all that much socializing as opposed to golfing at the rest of the clubs in town. 
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2011, 08:11:58 PM »

Didn't Art Hills redo Westmoreland in Wilmette?



 :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

The first fairway has squishy ground....that's pretty cool.

Most of the southern half of the course has squishy ground, as it's built on a bog. Hills has been the archie consultant for about 20 years, supervised the big re-do then and comes back annually at the club's request to tweak. I've just finished writing the club's history, and can tell you he made the most of a layout that had bowling-alley fairways and lighting fast, but flat, greens. With only 124 acres, he couldn't change the routing, but he improved most every hole from what had been there before. I have his re-do plan, and every one of his changes, plus several subsequent, made sense.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

PThomas

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #107 on: January 11, 2011, 08:29:02 PM »
Other than it being a stone cold FACT that the club hired Colt in 1913 and that the boards of the two clubs were better than 50% the exact same guys at the time....it's not a gigantic logical leap to deduce what happened, IMO.   

Just ask Moriarity et al to get to the bottom of it...

only if you agree to sift thru all the evidence! ;)
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #108 on: January 11, 2011, 08:29:14 PM »
Tim,

The one time I played, it felt like three different courses.  The holes just didn't seem to fit together.  I made that comment to somebody over cocktails after golf and he laughed and told me that the course is actually located in three different suburbs, so maybe each one has a different "feel".  I couldn't tell you one hole that I found particularly interesting or fun other than the one that has some kind of a traffic light telling people in the fairway that it's safe to hit the blind shot into the green.  Having said all that negative about the course, it is a great social club according to my friends who are members, not that they'll ever invite me again if they get wind of my comments!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Phil McDade

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #109 on: January 11, 2011, 09:27:17 PM »
We all know that there's more to a country club than just the golf course, so how about a Top Social/Dining Private Clubs in Chicago....


....I'll stop there and ask for others to fill in the remaining five, because I don't do all that much socializing as opposed to golfing at the rest of the clubs in town. 


The bar at Ridge Country Club, blocks south of the Bev? I've heard it's like the Hotel California -- once there, it's hard to leave.

Jud_T

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #110 on: January 11, 2011, 10:24:26 PM »
Stiffest Cocktails:

1. Bob-o-link
2. Knollwood
3. Butler
4. Onwentsia
5. Beverly (by reputation only)
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 11:36:48 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #111 on: January 11, 2011, 10:38:29 PM »
So where do Hillcrest and Twin Orchard fit into this discussion?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #112 on: January 12, 2011, 03:40:25 AM »
Tim,

The one time I played, it felt like three different courses.  The holes just didn't seem to fit together.  I made that comment to somebody over cocktails after golf and he laughed and told me that the course is actually located in three different suburbs, so maybe each one has a different "feel".  I couldn't tell you one hole that I found particularly interesting or fun other than the one that has some kind of a traffic light telling people in the fairway that it's safe to hit the blind shot into the green.  Having said all that negative about the course, it is a great social club according to my friends who are members, not that they'll ever invite me again if they get wind of my comments!

Terry, you're right. It's huge on social. They redid their pool and tennis facility in 2000 and it's paid off big in terms of use, member retention, etc. They also have a huge children's program, going well beyond junior golf. Westmoreland doesn't draw many members from more than 15 miles away, but still has a waiting list. Might be the only one on the North Shore.

The hole with the railroad light is the third. Hills, like every other previous architect to come through (including Langford and Tillinghast, both on two occasions), wanted to cut the hill down. The members said no. (The original archie is Willie Watson.)

Most of the course is in Wilmette, but the south third is in Skokie. Evanston lurks on the other side of the OB fence on the east.

The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Mike Demetriou

Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #113 on: January 12, 2011, 08:45:06 AM »
An excellent thread, and nearly certain to break that well known maxim that as a thread approaches 5 pages, hell breaks loose etc.

I recognize that we have some big personalities and knowledgable GCA buffs here in Chicago, but I wish we could see a thread like this for some other cities in the US as well. 

Terry, if you were to have written this thread ten years ago, would your hidden gems have been the same? Put differently, have you seen a dramatic shift in maint., conditions, redesigns, etc. in the last 10 years? (the "lost decade")


Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #114 on: January 12, 2011, 10:51:34 AM »
An excellent thread, and nearly certain to break that well known maxim that as a thread approaches 5 pages, hell breaks loose etc.

I recognize that we have some big personalities and knowledgable GCA buffs here in Chicago, but I wish we could see a thread like this for some other cities in the US as well. 

Terry, if you were to have written this thread ten years ago, would your hidden gems have been the same? Put differently, have you seen a dramatic shift in maint., conditions, redesigns, etc. in the last 10 years? (the "lost decade")



Mike,

The last decade has been characterized by a certain number of clubs seeing "the light" and others resolutely sticking their heads in the sand.  The past ten years has featured a number of clubs that have had thoughtful renovations and major tree clearing.  Others have done absolutely noting but watch their bunkering look more "tired" and their trees grow horizontally into lines of play.  Some have done a little bit.

Let's take Rolling Green for an example.  It's your typical 6400 yard from the tips, jammed into a small piece of land suburban community country club with enough money to do things right.  Nice little golf course.  It's also your typical midwestern country club that screwed the pooch on the tree issue starting in the 1960's when the Dutch elm disease hit.  Most clubs had dozens of elms that provided the shade that everybody thought their courses needed, even if the course was built, like most in this area, on old farm land.  When the elms died, with their majestic upward branching pattern, they were replaced mostly by maple, ash and river birch trees, which are really not suitable for golf courses.  Rolling Green is a disaster of a place tree wise.  It's hard to see the golf course sometimes.  In any event, a couple years back, they redid the bunkers in a nice fashion, even put in the expensive, synthetic white sand, but they didn't cut down a single silver maple, pine or locust tree and they should cut down 1000.

Contrarily, Flossmoor woke up one day and realized that they were sitting on a golf course that had been slowly damaged by decades of neglect and decided to get educated and repair the gem.  I introduced an influential member to Brad Klein and the rest is history.  Brad educated my friend and my friend educated the club and they redid their golf course, buffed up their historical treasures and burnished their south suburban jewel.  AND they cut down 1000 trees.

Olympia, Beverly, Exmoor, Skokie, Park Ridge, Butterfield and many others accomplished variations on the same theme, perhaps only Olympia South and Butterfield with the same panache as Flossmoor.  It's a small tragedy that so many great clubs with great golf courses won't deal with the tree issue in the right way.  Mark Studer started all this with Oakmont and the influence has been just terrific around the country.  The progressive clubs have moved in the right direction while the others still deal with the dark ages, having to punch out laterally from underneath an austrian pine or a frickin' hawthorne tree to get back in play.

Socially, with the notable exception of places like Westmoreland, the country club life is twisting on the vine, dying.  Sad, but true and it's a cultural shift that is unlikely to be reversed.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JR Potts

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #115 on: January 12, 2011, 10:58:34 AM »
Socially, with the notable exception of places like Westmoreland, the country club life is twisting on the vine, dying.  Sad, but true and it's a cultural shift that is unlikely to be reversed.

Especially now that the Democrats in the Illinois just picked every member's pocket for what is likely one full year of dues.

JR Potts

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #116 on: January 12, 2011, 11:06:17 AM »
So where do Hillcrest and Twin Orchard fit into this discussion?

Hillcrest's Obit is linked here.

http://www.chicagorealestatedaily.com/article/20110112/CRED03/110119945/fore-suit-hits-suburban-golf-course#axzz1AktPmdo4

Twin Orchard is on a different list in a different thread.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #117 on: January 12, 2011, 11:18:50 AM »
Olympia, Beverly, Exmoor, Skokie, Park Ridge, Butterfield and many others accomplished variations on the same theme, perhaps only Olympia South and Butterfield with the same panache as Flossmoor. 

Yeah, but it cost Butterfield $16MM.  What a top tick that was...

The economics of being a member at Butterfield have never made sense to me.  Speaking as an outsider, it does seem like they get whacked to assessments left and right and the number are always awfully high.  Olympia redid the South Course, irrigation included, for less than $3 million, but they didn't re-do every green (only one new green) and re-do the drainage and work on the creek, like Butterfield did, and I'm not sure if Butterfield did any clubhouse or maintenance work at the same time.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JR Potts

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #118 on: January 12, 2011, 12:01:49 PM »
I used to think "100% yes! (and 'screw 'em' if they don't)" when I was younger. 

Screw 'em.

Phil McDade

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #119 on: January 12, 2011, 12:10:02 PM »
Shivas:

For my game (worse than nearly everyone who posts on this board), Beverly was playable, but on the edge of not being so. I loved the challenge of it, and it was a lot of fun, but hard, for me. Flossmoor was a tougher test; I think in some ways it's a tougher course. Other than one or two holes, it wasn't awful in the taxing way you suggest.

I absolutely know I don't have enough game for OFields North, Butler, and Medinah 3. Don't know about the rest, although I think I'd be fine at Shoreacres and Chicago. Of course, those two courses get criticized at the other end of the spectrum.

Jud_T

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #120 on: January 12, 2011, 12:21:07 PM »
Shiv,

I agree with your point about Medinah #3 and Butler.  Nobody over a 10 should be setting foot on either course IMHO.  I disagree about OFCC North and Skokie.  Both are tough but playable for the higher handicapper as long as they play the right tees. 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2011, 12:24:02 PM »
Shivas,

I guess we could come up with a list of "Top Ten Courses That Aren't Too Damned Hard From The White Tees".  That would eliminate Butler and Medinah #3 I suppose, maybe Olympia and Beverly if one is feeling particularly feeble.  Hell, for that matter North Shore and Skokie might be too hard for some souls.  And Flossmoor can be murder from any tee if the greens are running at 12.  I guess the answer is to grow a pair!   ;D

A top ten list shouldn't exclude the best if the best also happen to be the toughest.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

David Egan

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2011, 03:27:23 PM »
Shiv,

I agree with your point about Medinah #3 and Butler.  Nobody over a 10 should be setting foot on either course IMHO.  I disagree about OFCC North and Skokie.  Both are tough but playable for the higher handicapper as long as they play the right tees. 

One of the reasons I love Skokie (and there are a lot of reasons) is that it's like two  courses - a fun and playable course from the white tees and a very challenging and stern test for the best players from the blue tees.  It's really amazing how much it changes just moving back one set of tees.

PThomas

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #123 on: January 12, 2011, 03:29:11 PM »
i thought Butler was much harder than Medinah
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Terry Lavin

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Re: Mr. Lister #4: Quick Compleat Guide to Private Clubs in Chicago
« Reply #124 on: January 12, 2011, 03:47:04 PM »
Shiv,

I agree with your point about Medinah #3 and Butler.  Nobody over a 10 should be setting foot on either course IMHO.  I disagree about OFCC North and Skokie.  Both are tough but playable for the higher handicapper as long as they play the right tees. 

One of the reasons I love Skokie (and there are a lot of reasons) is that it's like two  courses - a fun and playable course from the white tees and a very challenging and stern test for the best players from the blue tees.  It's really amazing how much it changes just moving back one set of tees.

David,

That's an excellent point and it's a mark of a great golf course if it's murder from the back and playable from the members' tee.  I think Olympia North and South are that way.  The white tees on either course are very playable, the blue tees are very difficult and the black (back) tees are semi-sadistic if you're anything but a long hitting low single-digit handicapper.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

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