Great Golf in Charleston: Bulls Bay, Yeamans Hall and Country Club of Charleston

[Brad Klein]

Have not been to Yeamans Hall is a decade; cannot wait for my tee time there tom'w at noon.

[Tim Gavrich]

See below link.  Some pretty good pictures of Bulls Bay.  As you can see from the pics, the course is very visually impressive.

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/USA/S%20Carolina/Bulls%20Bay/index.html

Boy, Bulls Bay looks cool.  It's really interesting that that par 3 near the end of the album is nearly a carbon copy of the 3rd hole at True Blue.  It's a neat hole, so there's nothing wrong with reproducing it on a another course, but I don't know if I can think of two courses that share an almost exactly common hole.

Also, very interesting responses to Yeamans vs. CC of C.  I had always thought that Yeamans Hall was pretty commonly regarded as being a bit better, but it looks like the two courses are a lot closer together in reputation than I had previously thought.  Which of them is the older of the two and by how much?  Are they both pretty much original routings?

It always amazes me how many different styles of golf course look good against the backdrop of the Lowcountry.  I haven't been to Pawleys Island in a while and I'm really looking forward to getting down there after Christmas and slumming it around Pawleys Plantation for a week or so!  Sure beats Connecticut in December.

[Brian Cenci]

I've played Yeamans and Bulls Bay and was impressed with both.  Yeamans still holds the crown in my book for "Best Course on Worst Piece of Golf Course Land".  I don't think it's possible to build a better course there on that flat piece of property...it just fits it so perfectly. 

Bulls Bay is one of my favorite Strantz but there are a few holes on the front (namely that first par 5 you come to, #2 I think) that I didn't care for.  Even for me, someone who doesn't mind a little craziness on the course, I was completely lost on the thought process behind that hole (especially off the tee).  I've taken some great pics out at Bulls Bay too....here's a few...

[Adam Clayman]

I've been in Charleston for 16 hours already. Love it. The people are friendly and building architecture magnificient. Can't wait to tee it up. Driving past Magnolia lane on our way here was another treat. We will be passing by again on Sunday if anyone wants to PM me for a game.

[John Shimp]

Brian,
How is Yeamans Hall a bad piece of golf property?   Its got a lot of movement in the land with only a few (3, 5, 13, 17) flat holes.
I think of it as an outstanding piece of rolling coastal property particularly the back which I consider to be hilly for southeastern US coastal golf.  Why do you think it is not a great property?  The natural trees an soil type also distinguish it.

Tim,
My view after dozens of plays is that Yeamans and CofC are quite separate in terms of their quality.  CofC doesn't have the property that YHC has (flat, cramped in comparison) and has far fewer standout holes.  Greens also arent' close to the same league in my opiinion. 

[Sean_A]

Brian

Thanks for the pix. 

I wouldn't say YHC is on poor or average land.  Its true there isn't a lot of movement to naturally offer distinguished golf, but the sandy nature of the soil boosts it up a few notches.  Besides, Raynor didn't need a lot happening with the land to build his style of course, this is one of the best aspects of a Raynor design.

Ciao

[PCCraig]

I've been in Charleston for 16 hours already. Love it. The people are friendly and building architecture magnificient. Can't wait to tee it up. Driving past Magnolia lane on our way here was another treat. We will be passing by again on Sunday if anyone wants to PM me for a game.

Charleston is a fantastic town. Make sure to get some Corn Fritters and Shrimp and Grits while you're down there! (The Sanctuary, specifically Jasmine P. makes a mean S&G).

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, you got it right there!  Shrimp and Grits it is. After a round at Yeaman's,  Ed Galbavy had me try it when we went to Hyman's seafood house on Meeting St, (even though it is a crowded tourist favorite).  I wrinkled my nose at his suggestion to try'em.  I was blown away at how good they are.  If you can't get fed well and don't enjoy the golf in Charleston, you have something wrong with you...  

[JC Jones]

I heart Shrimp and Grits.

[Brian Cenci]

Brian,
How is Yeamans Hall a bad piece of golf property?   Its got a lot of movement in the land with only a few (3, 5, 13, 17) flat holes.
I think of it as an outstanding piece of rolling coastal property particularly the back which I consider to be hilly for southeastern US coastal golf.  Why do you think it is not a great property?  The natural trees an soil type also distinguish it.

Tim,
My view after dozens of plays is that Yeamans and CofC are quite separate in terms of their quality.  CofC doesn't have the property that YHC has (flat, cramped in comparison) and has far fewer standout holes.  Greens also arent' close to the same league in my opiinion. 

Maybe I was mis-understood in my post.  I love where the makeup of the land next to an intercoastal area, big crazy wheeping trees that fit the property.  Being a Michigander tho the elvetation change and framework for which Raynor had to build a course to me was not that interesting.  But, he made one hell of a course!

[Chris Flamion]

I love Charleston, and that whole low country area in general. 

Amazing to me how different the architecture is between Bull's Bay when compared to Yeaman's and CCC, yet we are keeping them in the same discussion. 

[Eric_Dorsey]

Got to play Yeaman's Hall last August (2009), am man was it HOT! - must of been 110 index, but made it through the day.  NO way was I not playing this great course.  anyway, what a gem - talking about 'stepping back in time'  I felt like it was 1930 when I walked into the clubhouse, which was totally empty.

Almost every pic I took was in RAW form as I was sort of on a play/photo shoot that day - so I need to process all my RAW images still.  but will throw these in for now.  a few shot of the great 1st hole, which gets mentioned alot - one of my fav holes on the course for sure.

[Mike Jansen]

I have to chime in here because Bulls Bay is one of my favorite courses...  I have never played a course anything like it.  Strantz gave you all the room in the world off the tee... 100 yards wide or  so, but ideally you only wanted to be in 20% of it... otherwise the approach was made very difficult.... definitely a second shot golf course.  The bunkering is also amazing how it blends throughout the course into cart paths.  I believe its behind the #2 green where there were thin strands of "bunkers" no more than 1-2 feet wide.  I have some more great pics, but struggling to post them here..

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip,

Yeamans Hall is generally the more widely known of the two (YH and CCofC).  I've even seen one person say that he thought Yeamans was Raynor's finest work.  I am surprised you say that the best greens of CCofC are better than the best at Yeamans Hall.  I've not played either but am curious to know if you could elaborate on why you think that is and could you also rank these two courses among the template, CBM/Raynor courses that you have played.

Thanks

JC

Of the template courses I have played I would rank them (for the most part) in this order:

Chicago Golf Club
Piping Rock
National Golf Links
Shoreacres
St Louis Country Club
Creek Club
Yeamans Hall
Country Club of Charleston
Blue Mound
Foresgate

I think both Yeamans and CCofC have great green complexes.  Yeamans may be better as a group, but the best ones at CCofC are better than the best ones at Yeamans (IMO).

[JC Jones]

Chip,

Very cool.  Thanks

[Tim Gavrich]

I didn't want to start a new topic for this, but I did want to comment.  my father and I both had the good fortune to play Bulls Bay today and even though the temperature hung all day in the 40s and rain increased from random drops to a steady cold rain over the course of the round, every single hole was a new visual bit of intrigue.  The fairways are humongous and let everyone swing away off of most tees, which I enjoyed, especially since it became clear on most holes that one region of fairway is preferable on each hole.  The greens ranged from the very austere 1st green to the enormous 11th, which I found to be a new wrinkle in the Strantz skill set--on the other courses I've played of his, the greens are all big to very, very big.

The green complexes at Bulls Bay, I thought, were excellent.  Almost all of them are approachable from the ground (especially since the club does not foolishly overseed the fairways and therefore presents a great winter playing surface!) and a lot of them have great backboards and side boards.  I could spend an hour or more goofing around at most of them.

A couple questions for those who have played the course:

1. What do you think of the par-5 13th hole?  It was the hole I loved the least; still not a bad hole by any sretch.  I just found the right turnaround the trees and the creek towards the green to be a bit abrupt.  It seems like the player is generally confined to hitting a layup shot to the elbow but cannot reasonably try and hit a layup within 100 yards or so.

2. I played the Maverick tees today and found that on the five par 3s, I hit four 6-irons and one 5-iron.  Part of this was probably due to the assortment of hole locations and the weather, but I found this interesting.  What's the club assortment like from the other tee sets on the par 3s for people?  Even though they were of fairly similar length, the look of each was different from each other, which I definitely appreciated.

All in all, Bulls Bay was an absolute treat and I feel as though I could play it most every day and not grow tired of it.  Easily the best course I've played this year! 

Cheers.

[Sean_A]

Tim

I wasn't keen on the par 5s in general and the 13th (along with #2) was probably the least admired of the lot.  That said, the hole does offer a contrast to much of the course in that it is very prescribed so from that PoV it has some merit.

Ciao

[Rob_Waldron]

Chip

How about Mountain Lake in Lake Wales, FL. I thouhgt this was a wonderful template course!

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

If I had to divide 10 rounds between Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston I would go 7 to 3 favoring CC of Charleston.  Just a more comfortable feeling there to me....

Chip, I've seen a number of other posters at varying times express similar sentiments favoring CofC over Yeamans.  That's a head scratcher for me.  While I always enjoy CofC, Yeamans seems to me to be clearly superior from an architectural standpoint.  I just don't see the consistent quality of holes at CofC that I see at Yeamans.  For me, CofC's appeal lies in a handful of unique features that I haven't really seen elsewhere and a few other very good holes.  But there are too many pedestrian holes for me to elevate it above Yeamans.  So I would be interested in hearing why you feel differently.  Thanks in advance!

Ed

I would agree, Ed.  I have always thought that as a whole Yeamans flowed a little better and had a more consistent collection of holes.  But CCofC has the more spectacular setting, and some singualarly fantstic holes, but a few that are just average as well.  My split of the 10 rounds I was given would be 6-4 Yeamans.

I too think CCofC's redan is one of my favorite that I have ever played (and I have even played the original).  It is bold, but a great hole that I look forwar to every time I am lucky enough to get out there.  Last time i played CCofC was just after they reopened after the renovations, and it was still a little rough, i am really looking forward to seeing the Lions Mouth hole after the renovations have grown in.

[BigEdSC]

Always a favorite topic of mine.  Especially after meeting Dick Daley for the first time when he, and his friends were left high and dry by a former GCA'er that was supposed to get them on Yeamans.

I was a summer member at YHC for over 15 years.  Though the golf club itself doesn't seem to change much, the golf course seems to change every summer.  The last big change was sharing rust (back) tees for #2 with the back of #6.  On #3, the tee box was lowered and made larger, and the back tees on #4 have stretched the hole to around 490-500 yards (the tee box is behind #3), with a bunker in the middle of the fairway at around 300 off the tee.  I really miss playing out at the Hall.  It is probably the one course in town that you could count on that drains the best.  No question.

As far as the CCof C, It truly is a great course also.  But the Country Club was built on a flat piece of land.  Yeamans terrain is rolling, and there is not much of a comparison.  #11 was a controversial hole at one time.  Befort they "lowered" the green, the green was convexed to where the ball would roll into the bunkers.  It was as such, that in the Azalea, the hole would play around 180, and many in the field would layup to the front of the green and chip the ball up and accept a 4 as a good score.  It was close to impossible to hit the ball out of the bunker and have the ball stay on the green.  Many of the spectators would only watch play at #11 and hope for the carnage, like watching for wrecks at a NASCAR race.

Bulls Bay is also another great course.  It had the Dixied Cup there one year.  Even though the fairways are pretty wide open, you need to place the ball in position to get a good angle to the greens.  Really good bentgrass greens there.  But it is as far south as I've seen bent.

[Bill_McBride]

Always a favorite topic of mine.  Especially after meeting Dick Daley for the first time when he, and his friends were left high and dry by a former GCA'er that was supposed to get them on Yeamans.

I was a summer member at YHC for over 15 years.  Though the golf club itself doesn't seem to change much, the golf course seems to change every summer.  The last big change was sharing rust (back) tees for #2 with the back of #6.  On #3, the tee box was lowered and made larger, and the back tees on #4 have stretched the hole to around 490-500 yards (the tee box is behind #3), with a bunker in the middle of the fairway at around 300 off the tee.  I really miss playing out at the Hall.  It is probably the one course in town that you could count on that drains the best.  No question.

As far as the CCof C, It truly is a great course also.  But the Country Club was built on a flat piece of land.  Yeamans terrain is rolling, and there is not much of a comparison.  #11 was a controversial hole at one time.  Befort they "lowered" the green, the green was convexed to where the ball would roll into the bunkers.  It was as such, that in the Azalea, the hole would play around 180, and many in the field would layup to the front of the green and chip the ball up and accept a 4 as a good score.  It was close to impossible to hit the ball out of the bunker and have the ball stay on the green.  Many of the spectators would only watch play at #11 and hope for the carnage, like watching for wrecks at a NASCAR race.

Bulls Bay is also another great course.  It had the Dixied Cup there one year.  Even though the fairways are pretty wide open, you need to place the ball in position to get a good angle to the greens.  Really good bentgrass greens there.  But it is as far south as I've seen bent.

#11 at CCC sounds a lot like #2 and #10 at Dornoch, the hardest par 3's I've ever played.

[BigEdSC]

Capt. Bill
     From what I remember of #2 and #10 at Dornoch, #11 was much more difficult.  The green depth on #11 was only around 11 yards deep, and from the bottom of the hill, it used to be 12-15 feet above your head.  After the renovation, they lowered the green by 2-3 feet, and the ball funnels more to the middle of the green.  It's a much better and playable hole, now.