[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I just returned from a trip to Argentina, and just down the way from where I was staying in Igauzu, Hilton hotels are building a hotel/golf resort.
The site is adjacent to the Iguazu river some eight miles downtiver from thr spectacular falls in a rain forest enviroment on land within a guarani tribal location...great site for a gold course.
Does anybody on here have any insights to the architecture etc?
thank you

[Randy Thompson]

About four years ago we sent a proposal without even visiting the site. i heard shortly after that a local Argentine was contracted. His name is Emillo Serra and his father or maybe it was an uncle was a sucessful architect in Argentina. Most of his courses are unknown but he has done a bunch of them. He did the second nine at lloa-lloa, I am not sure that is spelled correctly but it´s the famous hotel in Bariloche! The owner of the Hilton project was from Spain I beleive. Have not heard anythng for years but recently heard it was under construction.

[Ronald Montesano]

Clarification:  MWP got the spelling correct 1 of 3 times:  Iguazu

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Oops just realised that I git the a nd u mixed up, but I dont think he was referring to my spelling anyway.
Thanks for the info on the designer..as yet it did not look as though any ground had been broken, but the site could be specatcular.

[Randy Thompson]

South America is full of spectacular sites, one of many reasons I call this place home! The challenge is to find the right clients to let you bring out the full potential and then find a balance of creating something special that does not go over the 99% of the golfing publics heads.

[Jim Nugent]

Randy, is the regulatory climate more relaxed there, too? 

[Randy Thompson]

Jim,
Depends where you are in S.A. but in general I would say yes. Brazil is getting as bad as California. Argentina is how it should be IMO, you have to do things with common sence and show your desires to improve things in general and that your not a lose cannon that will destroy the enviroment and you can get things done pretty quickly.

[Steve Okula]

Randy,

What's the market there? Are there enough local golfers or do new projects need international tourism to fill the starting sheet?

[Jaeger Kovich]

What's the market there? Are there enough local golfers or do new projects need international tourism to fill the starting sheet?

From what I've read it looks like its more about finding locations with relatively high population density to support courses rather than international tourism, but I'm no expert on this subject. South America is just very intriguing to me.

[Randy Thompson]

Randy,

What's the market there? Are there enough local golfers or do new projects need international tourism to fill the starting sheet?

Steve,
Jaeger got right, if your within an hour of a major city you will be ok, isolated areas are much more challlenging. Argentina has the most golfers and golf courses by a long shot, so it varies from country to country. If your targeted market is International tourism, your losing money now but there are no Doak or Coore`s courses, if one of them did something special on a special piece of property, you might could draw fifty or sixty percent from an international market and make money.

[Carl Nichols]

Randy:

How about a World Top 100 course (or of that general quality) somewhere around Mendoza?  The terrain is interesting; great views; and there's already a fairly thriving tourist economy.

Have you seen the Nicklaus Chapelco course?  Also, any word on his course in Bariloche? 

[Randy Thompson]

Hey Carl,
How have you been? Mendoza is interesting and I love it in the fall. mostly an arid climate and kind of rocky, not really knock your socks views but nice. I always thought a good vineyard course would do well there. I think it would be difficult to get Internationals to go there for the golf but they would pick up a lot of as you mentioned from the existing market. Player has one signed there where he changed out design fees for lots and it is in a huge vineyard but nothing under construction yet. Anybody can perssive a devlopment by changing out named player architecture fees for lots and create a web for a project but turing it into a reality take a much larger investment, it been being talked about for two years now and still I beleive nothing in the way of dirt movement but I could be wrong. Yes, I played Chapelco shortly after its opening more than five years ago and maybe eight, not sure how long ago. Anyways it was a lot like most of his course, a solid course but .....well you fill in the blanks. The course remains almost empty ten months out of the year. The course in Bariloche is pretty far from Bariloche but I beleive it finished about a year ago and have not heard if it is open since finishing construction. Here is a picture from one of the holes taken off a web site from an architectural firm out of Mexico.

In conclusion, I stand firm, to get people to go to Argentina specifically to play golf will take a Doak or a Coore´s combined with a property like this! My god, look what has been done naturally, look at the bunkers and the existing green site jumping out and saying, somebody put a 4 inch cup and flag here and lets play golf. Give either one or those two a chance to do there magic tweaking and you will have something truely special. Tough to create something inland that will get the attention of raters and make top 100 material, such as in Mendoza.

[Steve Okula]

Randy,

Do you think that Tom Doak and Bill Coore are the only two architects who could draw international people to South America? They are both practically unknown by the average golfer in Europe. Coore has one well-regarded course in Medoc France, but Tom nothing.

You don't think that Kyle Philips, David Kidd, or Greg Norman would create interest?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

After being there and also watching the highlights of the Dakkaar rally that is currently winding its way through Patagonia...there are some serious dunes in Chile that one can just visualise golf holes everywhere, but I agree it would tkae a C&C OR a Doak to attract enough Americans to make it a go as a tourist "attraction"
The Jockey Club in Buenos Aires for instance, historic as it is with the Mackenzie connection and one of the most afluent clubs in South America, really cant be bothered to put the course into the "state" it belongs..restoring it to Mackenzie originality is not high on their agenda they just want to play golf.
Much like most members of clubs here...walking around the place one can visualise just how marvelous a good restoration project could be...but we on this site are still a big minority who see thungs in a perfect world of what we desire....most people just want to play.

[Randy Thompson]

Randy,

Do you think that Tom Doak and Bill Coore are the only two architects who could draw international people to South America? They are both practically unknown by the average golfer in Europe. Coore has one well-regarded course in Medoc France, but Tom nothing.

You don't think that Kyle Philips, David Kidd, or Greg Norman would create interest?

Norman has one under construction in front of Nicklaus course Chapelco, no I don`t think it will attract any more interest but somebody does becasue they are building in front of an almost empty Nicklaus course 10 months out of the year. You have to get the word out and the media is following everything Coores and Doak are doing anywhere.

[Lou_Duran]

Randy,

What is the economy doing in Argentina?  When I was there in 2002, the Jockey Club was rough-around-the-edges, and the members I talked to weren't optimistic.  Is there that much of a golf heritage there?

My son has been to Brazil a few times and just raves about the place.  What are you hearing about the Olympic course?  Might Brazil offer some hope for golf?

How about Chile?

[Steve Okula]

Randy,

Do you think that Tom Doak and Bill Coore are the only two architects who could draw international people to South America? They are both practically unknown by the average golfer in Europe. Coore has one well-regarded course in Medoc France, but Tom nothing.

You don't think that Kyle Philips, David Kidd, or Greg Norman would create interest?

Norman has one under construction in front of Nicklaus course Chapelco, no I don`t think it will attract any more interest but somebody does becasue they are building in front of an almost empty Nicklaus course 10 months out of the year. You have to get the word out and the media is following everything Coores and Doak are doing anywhere.

Well, Randy, not everywhere. Doak and Coores get precious little coverage in Europe. In fact, it's only on this particular web site that I see such an infatuation with these two architects, (no disrespect to them) and to the exclusion, it sometimes seems, of every other living designer.

[Randy Thompson]

Steve,
I hear where your coming from but.... two points, point one, there is a significant higher majority of tourist coming from the USA than Europe and second, how many golfers does Europe have, the states has somehting like 23,000,000 I beleive, I should know that but I don`t know for sure, I would imagine Europe has less.

[Randy Thompson]

Randy,

What is the economy doing in Argentina?  When I was there in 2002, the Jockey Club was rough-around-the-edges, and the members I talked to weren't optimistic.  Is there that much of a golf heritage there?
My son has been to Brazil a few times and just raves about the place.  What are you hearing about the Olympic course?  Might Brazil offer some hope for golf?
How about Chile?

Lou,
how-R-U! Your lucky your son still comes homes from Brazil, if I were single and young it would be tough to get my on the plane out of there. If you look at Brazil only on paper, you should come to the conclusions of a giant boom starting now but average clientel is a diffferent mentality there and very very difficult and the enviromental restrictions are numerous and without justificiations. Its like were not sure, so just in case..NO! Have not heard much lately on the olympic golf course, just the usual slurping sounds from a distance. the economy is on auto piolet for now! Argentina took it hard for three or four years when you were there. You probably had some great beef and wine for under 20 bucks, those days are gone. The economy is quite good and has been for a while! Most clubs are spending money again and in general it is clicking and moving upwards in alll areas. Chile is good but such a small market in golf but very healthy economy. Take care!

[Steve Okula]

Steve,
I hear where your coming from but.... two points, point one, there is a significant higher majority of tourist coming from the USA than Europe and second, how many golfers does Europe have, the states has somehting like 23,000,000 I beleive, I should know that but I don`t know for sure, I would imagine Europe has less.

Randy,

If you polled any given one thousand Americans who golf regularly, and who have the means for intercontinental travel to play golf, which of the following five names would get the least recognition; Coore, Nicklaus, Palmer, Player, Doak?

Bill Coore has a good, not spectacular, design in France. As far as I know, Americans are not flocking across the Atlantic just to play it. And evidently, the Doak stamp alone was not enough to save St. Andrews Beach.

[Randy Thompson]

Steve,
The US media is following what they are doing and nobody has a higher track record for getting courses into the top 100! How many coourses has Nicklaus done and how many are in the top 100. Then do the same formula with Doak and see what his percentage comes out to. Nicklaus is less than one percent and conservatively, depending what ranking magazine, Tom is well over ten percent! Don`t know much about St.andrews bay but I bet he had a difficult client if it went under or other elements in the formula were missing that lead to sucsess outside the controll of the Architect.

[Niall C]

Steve/Randy,

Interesting discussion re drawing power of architects. Setting aside Randy's point about the location of Argentina largely making it an American market, I think Steve's point is valid, the vast majority of european golfers, I would suggest, don't really know Doak or Coore. But then again if UK golfers are anything to go by, they are fairly ignorant of architects but know a good golf course when they see it (or think they do !). What gets them going is the rep of the course, which comes from reviews.....and its possible/likely that raters tend to be influenced by the name of the designer. So in a round about fashion the designer does count. The fact that these gentlemen tend to produce very good courses obviously helps.

Niall

[Steve Okula]

Niall,

I believe that the golf market is driven by word of mouth more than anything else.  Most golfers are educated and sophisticated enough to know that a review may be politically or financially motivated. On the other hand, any one of us would rush to play a course if some one we personally know and respect recommends it. This forum is a shining example of exactly that.

Randy,

A quick Google tells me that the Nicklaus design in Chapelco is out there pretty much on its own, with no other golf in a day's drive. If this is the case, then it doesn't matter who designed it, very few people will go out of their way spending airfares, hotels, and so forth to play one single golf course. In the golf tourism industry, there is a critical mass of a minimum of three golf courses in close proximity, i.e., convenient to a single hotel or lodging, to draw the customers. So if a Doak course and then a Coore course did go up side by side in Chapelco, no doubt business would be greatly enhanced on the Nicklaus layout. But the same thing would happen even if the new courses were designed by Jones and Hawtree.

[Randy Thompson]

Steve,
Valid points and maybe there is some rhyme and reason to the Norman course being constructed in front of Chapelco. I thought maybe they were just washing money but maybe not if they can get a third in the area. I will start one in September in Villa Angustura which I think is about an hour away from San Martin, Los Andes the location of the Nicklaus and Norman courses.

[Niall C]

Niall,

I believe that the golf market is driven by word of mouth more than anything else.  Most golfers are educated and sophisticated enough to know that a review may be politically or financially motivated. On the other hand, any one of us would rush to play a course if some one we personally know and respect recommends it. This forum is a shining example of exactly that.


Steve

Agreed, but in the case of new courses the word of mouth is generally initially generated by a bit of exposure from the raters, no ?

Niall

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