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Tom Yost

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Papago News (update in post #12)
« on: January 09, 2011, 10:20:13 AM »
(see post #12 for the latest installment)


Actually, nothing new to report but today's Arizona Republic features a lengthy article summarizing the Papago story and the current situation as the city of Phoenix seeks to move ahead following the bankrupcy filing of the Arizona Golf Foundation, the non-profit entity of the Arizona Golf Association that was awarded the contract to renovate and operate the golf course.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2011/01/09/20110109phoenix-papago-golf-course.html
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 09:42:48 PM by Tom Yost »

Mark Smolens

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Re: Papago News
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2011, 11:39:16 AM »
Tom, I had a chance to play Papago the Wednesday before Christmas. I thought the course was in pretty decent shape. The lack of a "functional"clubhouse is not a factor for me (also played Vista Verde, and they don't have a clubhouse either!). Greens were firm, but rolled nicely, but fairways were a little soft due to some significant rains in day before I arrived. Hard to beat the price and it's 5 minutes from Mom's house.

Next trip out, in February, I'll give you a call so that we can play (and maybe Dan Moore will be in the area then too).

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2011, 12:03:58 PM »
Greetings from sunny Arizona!!

"We didn't get what we wanted to achieve" This is from the city of Phoenix Recreation guy. The case is  in Bankruptcy Court and the AzGA still wants to manage the course. Amazing! The course will remain in its improved state but not the CCFAD the city envisioned. Projections, just like oral contracts, aren't worth the paper they're written on.In the meantime, if you want to play a very good muni, venture over to Aguila in the West Valley. This course was recently renovated and many locals prefer it over Papago.

http://phoenix.gov/recreation/rec/facilities/golf/golfcourses/aguila/index.html

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/golf/articles/2010/11/02/20101102arizona-golf-notes-aguila.html
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2011, 09:15:53 AM »
Tom, I had a chance to play Papago the Wednesday before Christmas. I thought the course was in pretty decent shape. The lack of a "functional"clubhouse is not a factor for me (also played Vista Verde, and they don't have a clubhouse either!). Greens were firm, but rolled nicely, but fairways were a little soft due to some significant rains in day before I arrived. Hard to beat the price and it's 5 minutes from Mom's house.

Next trip out, in February, I'll give you a call so that we can play (and maybe Dan Moore will be in the area then too).

Looking forward to it MarK! 

For me, the clubhouse issue is no big deal.   I was sad to see the old one go, disappointed it couldn't be renovated.  It had a quirky mid-century modern design that was a perfect representation of the era.

No doubt, the work that was completed yields a much better conditioned golf course.  Greens, tees fairways and bunkers are now in great shape.  Although the article mentioned dissatisfaction by some with the tree removal, I think it was much needed.  In fact, I believe a lot more tree work could be done.

What's unfinished however, leaves a pretty scruffy periphery.  Not that it bothers me at all, but in the big picture, the course retains the "muni" look.  I believe that has a serious impact on the plans to charge upscale green fees.  Another problem is the unfinished cart paths.  While not a fan of cart paths, when you have carts, paths are needed.  What I'm seeing now is the beautifully renovated turf being compacted and turned back into hard pan dirt areas where the cart traffic is focused.

Steve - Aguila is a fine course and I am interested to see how the "in-house" bunker renovations turned out.  I don't rank it above Papago however.


David Druzisky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2011, 12:43:24 PM »
I agree with you guys on Aguila.  When Schaupeter and I worked for Foster and didn't make enough money to pay expensive Phoenix area green fees and had used up our favors elsewhere, we made the trek out to Aguila on occasion even though it was on the opposite side of town from where we lived.  Gary Panks did a very nice job with that.  Gary and I played golf last month and Aguila came up.  He is proud of it and has since been frustrated at the condition of the native areas that were pretty much left to go.  Of course we were playing out at my The Duke and the same thing had occurred there with the native areas.  (Fortunately The Duke is being cleaned up by the new owners.)

I saw that article on Papago too.  Too many chiefs on that one.  Where did the 9.5 million go?  Green fees were set too high out of the gate.  It's like they wanted to piss people off more than they already did.  The city of Phoenix really needs to take some blame on this too.  The idea that there were no capital improvement monies set aside for the course as a city asset is ridiculous.  That place raked in the $ for a long time and it never should have deteriorated the way it did.   Why is it treated any different than a library is beyond me in terms of improvements and capital upkeep.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2011, 11:46:10 PM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike Lacey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2011, 12:44:34 AM »
Where did the 9.5 million go? 

I have been asking myself that question since first setting foot on Papago following the renovation.

I have it on very good authority that they spent less than $800,000 on the irrigation system. 

Much of the tree removal was done by a storm.  So much so that they abandoned the planned strategic tree removal program.

There is a beautiful new fleet of John Deere equipment in the maintenance yard but, beyond that, I am hard pressed to explain much of that budget.

That said, it is one of my favorite lay-of-the-land courses.  A fine test of golf and an even better walk. 

I  do find the Riviera greens a bit coarse.  They have a hard time getting them smooth.  I have not played them since they were over seeded this fall.

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2011, 08:00:01 AM »
They did build that nice little halfway house that is never open.

Ken Moum

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Re: Papago News
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 09:47:50 AM »
Where did the 9.5 million go? 

I have been asking myself that question since first setting foot on Papago following the renovation.

I have it on very good authority that they spent less than $800,000 on the irrigation system. 

Much of the tree removal was done by a storm.  So much so that they abandoned the planned strategic tree removal program.

There is a beautiful new fleet of John Deere equipment in the maintenance yard but, beyond that, I am hard pressed to explain much of that budget.

That said, it is one of my favorite lay-of-the-land courses.  A fine test of golf and an even better walk. 

I  do find the Riviera greens a bit coarse.  They have a hard time getting them smooth.  I have not played them since they were over seeded this fall.

I played it Dec. 31 for the first time, and loved it. My wife and played with two other men, and I got to see it played from four of the five tees.  One of them played the tips, another the blues, I played the whites and my wife played the forward tees.

I also agree that it 's hard to imagine where the money went. 

But it appeared to me that they didn't overseed the greens.  The day before we played Alta Mesa GC, where they apparently painted the greens, and the two sets of greens looked exactly alike.  FWIW, I thought they were fine, and the two fellows were played with commented several times about how fast they were--but compared to the screaming-fast surfaces at Alta Mesa they were pretty tame.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2011, 08:51:01 PM »
From time to time there are letters to the editor in the local paper about Papago. Larry McLennan is one of the still active members of the old Papago Men's Club (what is left of them.) Here is a letter he recently sent to the paper, but it only got published (as I understand it) in part, and in a regional edition. He answers a lot of the questions that have been asked and has an interesting perspective as one of the ol' regulars...


City of Phoenix's Restoration of Papago Golf Course, “Still Out of Bounds!”
by Larry McLennan – Phoenix Resident, Former Member at Papago and Co-Founder of “Save Papago Golf!”

We have all recently read extensive coverage about the Fiesta Bowl, City Budget and Food Tax issues, and procurement policies related to Sky Harbor Airport food concession contract awards.

What these issues all seem to have in common is, an unbridled hubris and a sense of entitlement/superiority on the part of public officials and/or private non-profit board members, coupled with processes that eventually prove to be far less than open and transparent, self serving and lacking in integrity, highly unprofessional (despite claims to the contrary), and end results that are clearly not in the best interests of the public.

Perhaps most distressing is when these events inevitably implode or get exposed to a “light of day” review, are the all too predictable efforts of those involved to either maintain a low profile on the issue, or feebly “spin” some disingenuous “angle” to the story.  
    
One less covered story that is a microcosm of all these failings is what has happened during the Arizona Golf Association/Foundation's (AGA/F) "restoration" of the Papago Golf Course, which is just the latest in this local string of predictable and avoidable travesties.

After only three short years the City of Phoenix (COP) recently (and very quietly) agreed to allow the AGA/F to simply withdraw from its Papago management contract obligations , without any further financial consequences despite the facts that;

•   The outcome of the restoration is far less than what was proposed or promised by the AGA/F, as witnessed by an en masse exodus to the tune of $500K+ per year by the course’s former regular customers.
•   Overall financial performance at the course has declined by over 40% as compared to the proposed 120% increase.
•   Proposed course improvements for Re-vegetation, Cart Paths, a Clubhouse/Pro Shop structure and other on-course improvements remain both largely uncompleted and more importantly, unfunded for the foreseeable future.  

In late 2007 over the strong objections of Papago’s true stakeholders, the COP awarded a 25 year contract for restoration and management of Papago Golf Course to a subsidiary of the Arizona Golf Association.

Despite the fact that a private philanthropist had proposed to donate $7MM towards the renovation and that two other private organizations had each proposed to make over $6MM in capital investment infusions, the COP evaluation team which was lead by the COP Auditor, chose the proposal of the AGA which only proposed a $500K capital investment, and relied almost entirely upon $12MM+ in debt financing via Phoenix Industrial Development Authority Industrial Revenue Bonds.

Informed citizens and respected local industry experts pointed out on numerous occasions to the foundation and city leadership that the foundation’s proposal was dangerously undercapitalized and that their revenue projections (a 120% percent increase in the first year of operation) were an impossibility, defying all industry logic.

Additionally, their proposal contained conflicting or amateurish representations on previous golf course management experience, plans for the clubhouse/pro shop building, paved cart paths, distribution of tee times, start-up funding, and even the name they planned to call the course.

Their most notable omission was that despite clear RFP instructions to the contrary, the foundation’s failed to include its past golf course management experience at Villa Monterey in Scottsdale, a true economic and ecological debacle. This nine-hole executive course was “donated” to the foundation and collapsed in similar timing and fashion to what has now again  happened at Papago, eventually requiring Scottsdale to pay over $3 million to remediate the course back to simple open space!

So much for protecting the integrity of the game, by these “stewards of Arizona amateur golf”.

In less than three years following a $10+ million restoration, the leadership and management of the foundation and their handpicked operations manager "The Golf Guys" (for whom we can't find any record of a competitive bid process) have delivered the following results:

•   Annual rounds played declined from a pre-project 61,000 in 2006-7 to about 30,000 rounds today.
•   Annual golf revenues declined from a pre-project $2 million to $1.2 million. The foundation’s proposal absurdly projected first-year post-restoration revenues of $4.4 million.
•   Year to date current spending per round is $36.07 vs. the wildly overly-optimistic $88 projection contained in the foundation’s proposal.
•   Debt at Papago has increased from zero to $9 million+.
•   There is no clubhouse, only a trailer.
•   Despite repeated claims that no taxpayer funds would be used at Papago, the city has had to contribute at the very least $250,000 towards operation of the course, plus untold legal fees, and a still to be determined amount for completion of required course improvements and ongoing operational deficits.

Perhaps most distressing about the foundation’s recently aborted stewardship at Papago is that no one from its staff, Board or Committee of Past Presidents has apologized for their poor performance, much less suggested that the AGA will make a sincere effort to assist in the funding of a new clubhouse.

Finally, please don’t listen to the “spin” that Papago’s demise was entirely or mainly a function of the Arizona housing bubble collapse;

•   The final decision/approvals for the project weren’t made until March 2008 when the Arizona real estate market was in full free fall. And yet no one thought to re-examine the economics of the project.
•   While combined year over year results for the FY 2009/10 at the other COP Courses was down by 4.9%, YTD for 2010/11 results are actually UP by 3%!  At Papago performance under the leadership of the AGF and the Golf Guys, for the same timeframes are a pathetic 28.3% DECLINE for 2009/10 and another 21.4% DECLINE for 2010/11!
In short, the local municipal golfer has clearly voted with their wallets about the aesthetic outcome, customer service, and overall value of the outcome of the Papago restoration.  

This is what should happen next:
•   Conduct a complete financial audit with full public review and comment of all construction and operational expenditures during the foundation’s management.
•   The COP (with the help of true Papago stakeholders and real local industry professionals) should immediately create and publish both short and longer term business plans for the rescue of Papago.
•   Remove the Golf Guys as operations managers, and replace them with city golf enterprise staff on an interim basis.
•   Get pricing back in line with the true value of Papago's current conditions, which today should be comparable to pricing at Dobson and other COP courses.
•   Repeatedly approach the "Lost Papago Regulars" in an effort to re-capture their $750,000 in annualized lost business.
•   Conduct an open request-for-proposal process for the next operator, and seek and listen to valuable input from the true Papago stakeholders before making a final decision.

Based upon results to date, unless this type of open and transparent approach is taken by the COP, I'm afraid they'll make another poor set of insider decisions that may doom this venerable course that, hosted a USGA major amateur event, multiple Phoenix Open Qualifiers, and 100,000 fun and challenging rounds per year for local municipal golfers, once and for all!

— Larry McLennan

 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 08:58:24 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2011, 10:09:53 PM »
Is there anyone left out there (AZ guys) who cares enough about Papago to write letters, express their feelings, etc.?  I think it an odd situation that there is a very, very quiet golf contingent here in Phoenix...    ???   After all, one of the great treasures of AZ golf is on its death bed, or so it appears.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Papago News
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2011, 10:43:40 PM »
Forrest

Any news on ASU taking over management of Papago if they decide to develop the Karsten Course?


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48513.0.html
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 10:45:16 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 09:41:18 PM »
The latest entry in the Papago saga in today's AZ Republic:

Phoenix may invest in Papago Golf Course

by Lynh Bui - Dec. 5, 2011 09:53 PM
The Arizona Republic

Phoenix is considering investing millions of dollars into the Papago Golf Course to regain control of the property and find a new company to manage the operation.

Golfers and elected officials are split, however, on whether Phoenix should put up the money to take complete control the once-storied municipal course, which has been struggling after the city's first failed attempt at outsourcing operations.

In 2008, Phoenix outsourced the restoration and management of Papago to the Arizona Golf Foundation's management arm because the city couldn't afford to do it. The AGF secured $12.5 million in financing through the Phoenix Industrial Development Authority and paid $10 million to renovate the course. Compass Bank issued the bonds to pay for the improvements.

The bank, however, is now saddled with $10 million in debt that the AGF can't repay after it filed for bankruptcy earlier this year and went into default.

Full Story:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/12/02/20111202phoenix-may-invest-papago-golf-course.html

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News (update in post #12)
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 09:52:48 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for posting this article.

It looks like ASU is not closing the Karsten Course anytime soon so their possible takeover of Papago is remote.

As always, the comments to this article are very interesting, particularly the one from the Papago Men's Association.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News (update in post #12)
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2011, 08:50:17 AM »
Breaking news...

PHX takes control of Papago again. Pays $1.8 to retire $10M debt. Will outsource management. The whole thing was a fiasco.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2011/12/16/20111216phoenix-papago-golf-debt.html

Will ASU take over Papago when their Karsten Course becomes NLE?

The comments, as usual, are interesting.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dave Givnish

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Papago News (update in post #12)
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2011, 11:48:39 AM »
No on ASU and Papago from a reliable source.  It will supposedly be several years before any contemplated closure of Karsten would occur.