[Craig Sweet]

What's your point? Should we go back to child labor? Should we go back to the days of 60 hour work weeks for pennies an hour? Should we go back to the days when hardly a week would go by without someone dying on the job?

Open your ears and you will hear EVERYDAY someone say we need to cut wages, cut pensions, bust the union, relax regulations....

You and your friend can laugh all you want but people bust their butts only to read in the papers, hear on the news, that the wealthy need more tax cuts....they know the value of their labor even if their boss doesn't.  There is nothing wrong with record profits...and apparently that is what has been driving the stock market....but there is certainly something wrong when the profits are earned in a foreign country, and the wages of American workers are cut.  

This has a direct impact on golf....

[Craig Sweet]

Mike...you know I never said split anything "right down the middle"....unless we are talking about fairways.

[Mike_Young]

Mike...you know I never said split anything "right down the middle"....unless we are talking about fairways.

Well you know what I mean .....
We just have a basic difference of opinion....my self I am grateful for the business owner....most of my projects were funded by these guys....and most of my friends that work for big business are grateful for the jobs they have provided them....but I live in a very liberal town where so many actually hate business....it's weird IMHO....they get up and go to the coffee shops around 10:30..read poetry and hang out for a few hours....then go to work at some place until around 6pm them hang out at some place that only serves vegetables grown locally....then to a music venue until 1am....AND all that is good by me...

[Craig Sweet]

Mike, I don't think expecting a fair wage and some job security in exchange for hard work means you hate business.  In my experience, as a member of the local Chamber of Commerce and my work with government, there is a decided anti worker aditude out there. I will go so far as to say that here are people that consider labor nothing more than a burden and a replaceable commodity.  As a business owner I consider my employees my greatest asset and worth nurturing. They made me money...they made me look good....and they realized my investment in them meant we were in this together.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jud...Apple enjoys huge margins on their iPod and iPads...above 40%....so do not be so quick to say they would have to charge more if manufactured in the USA...

Pat....again...tax credits and tax cuts will not create jobs...period!  I am not going to hire people simply because I had a profit due to a tax cut. Demand is the driving force behind hiring...tax cuts will not provide more jobs ESPECIALLY in this current economy where demand is slow and in many cases there is EXCESS inventory.

Tax cuts provide additional income.... spending power, which creates demand.

Pat...I subscribe to the theory that the business owner gets wealthy on the backs of those who labor for him.  Thus, no owner of tthe mine is digging out that gold and putting his life on the line to do it...yet the fruits of that labor go to the owner disporportionedly.

I understand, you're a socialist/communist.
The owner of that mine puts everything on the line, he signs personally, he's responsible for any accidents, lawsuits, etc., etc.
He risks his capital, his net worth while he puts in long hours and hard work.
If things go bad, he goes broke.

But, your mining example is bogus, another example of you resorting to the extreme in an attempt to present the extreme as the norm.

Why not cite a local contractor, or lumber yard business, or farm, or textile company or car dealorship ?
What you don't understand is that the world is modernizing, and without manufacturing, machines and computers will be the labor force of choice, not people.

Pat...the people that manufacture the products I sell are not manking any of those products if I am not selling them...and I will not sell them unless the demand is there...when I started my first nursery/landscape business it was just me the first year. The second year it was me and one other person...third year it was me and four employees....fourth year it was me and five employees....if the demand had not been there for my services, it would have been me and only me....a tax cut would have gone right in my pocket..and that is what has happened over the past eight years...the wealthy are not spending their tax cuts...and they are sizeable...on hirinig people.

That's more nonsense, increased revenue would let you modernize by buying better, newer equipment, trucks, etc..making your business more efficient, enabling you to do more, and expand

Pat...no Pat, it is you that is misinformed regarding tax rates and what is actually paid in taxes...I recall you arguing a couple of years ago that when the marginal tax rate was 90% back in the 50's and early 60's that no one actually paid those rates...same is true now...whether we are talking corporate or individual tax rates.

That is so incredibly inaccurate that you have to be seriously misinformed or just flat out lying to put forth your political views

What I stated was that the highest marginal tax rates were difficulut to reach due to their amount and the offsetting deductions allowed.  People reached them, but those people did exceedingly well.  
In order to reach the highest bracket in 1950 you had to make over $ 400,000.
$ 400,000 in 1950.  It's like making $ 10,000,000 today.
Almost NO ONE, repeat NO ONE made that kind of money.
And, in the 40's., you had to make $ 5,000,000 to reach the highest marginal rate, after deductions.

To give you some perpective, in 1962 I wrote my father a letter telling him that I wanted to get married and that I knew I could make
$ 10,000 a year, enough to support a family.  I dreamed of making the highest executive pay at the time, $ 25,000.  So, please, don't tell me about the impact of marginal tax rates in the 50's, 60's and 70's  and don't try to make the comparison with today's tax rates.
Marginal tax rates

Federal Income tax 35.0 %
Social Sec              12.4 %
Medicare tax            2.9 %
NJ                        10.75 %
Unemploy                1.2 %

You do the math, and that doesn't include other taxes.
Corporate or estate, sales, excise, city and state taxes.

Today, we're told that $ 200,000 a year qualifies you as rich.
Ask Mike Sweeney how a guy with a family living in NYC, making $ 200,000, lives

Today, those deductions that offset income qualifying for the highest marginal rate don't exist, and with inflation, the amounts are easily hit.

As to Corporations, I previously challenged you to tell me where all of the deductions you allege, exist.
I'd like to use them, clients and friends of mine would like to use them.
Where and what are these
America has the second highest corporate tax rates in the world.
And, when you factor in Social Security, Medicare,  

Pat...I do not care why corporate America is sitting on trillions of dollars....the point is...giving them even more cash via tax cuts....will not mean they will run out and create jobs. 

Right now, that money would be better spent retraining the workforce, supporting state education budgets, and providing unemployement benefits for the unemployed.

In your socialist/communist mindset you believe that, I don't.

What are you going to retrain people for ?

Why should corporations fund unemployment when it was the government who created the unemployment by creating a hostile business atmosphere that resulted in forcing jobs overseas ?

Let government CREATE a favorable business atmosphere/environment and corporations will hire people and expand their businesses.

Why should a corporation, which has a fiscal responsibility to its shareholders, have their money, earned the hard way, confiscated by the government to support your nutty ideas ?

[Lou_Duran]

Well you know what I mean .....
We just have a basic difference of opinion....my self I am grateful for the business owner....most of my projects were funded by these guys....and most of my friends that work for big business are grateful for the jobs they have provided them....but I live in a very liberal town where so many actually hate business....it's weird IMHO....they get up and go to the coffee shops around 10:30..read poetry and hang out for a few hours....then go to work at some place until around 6pm them hang out at some place that only serves vegetables grown locally....then to a music venue until 1am....AND all that is good by me...

The problem with you, Mike Young, is that you've yet to learn the immense benefits of acomoclitism and colonics.  A soothing wax and a warm enema in the morning might just be what you need to see the world in the proper way.  After all, don't you also yearn for "fairness" and "security"?

With the proper progressive regimes and therapies, you might yet arrive at a more empathetic level of consciousness where you learn to hate and undermine your "rich" oppressors, you know, those with whom you enter freely into contracts to build or modify golf courses, and who then tend to pay you in accordance with those agreements.  Bastards!

[David_Tepper]

"Most Firms Pay No Income Taxes"

http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/12/news/economy/corporate_taxes/

[Patrick_Mucci]

Craig Sweet,

I've had a lot of wonderful employees over the years, some bad ones to, but you know what,

My business is successful because of ME, because of my brain, because of the hours of hard work that I put into my business.
Had I had different employees, I still would have built a successful business.  They weren't the driving force, I was.
That's a principle you'll find difficult to embrace.

I can remember sitting with a client and his attorney along with his prospective wife and her attorney, in a pre-nup meeting, where her attorney stated that her client should get far more money because she was going to be there with him on social and business occassions, helping to make him successful.

I then asked her attorney how my client had gotten so successful without her client's presence in his life for all of these years,
That he was successful through HIS efforts, and nobody else's
And that if he wasn't successful, we wouldn't be sitting down and discussing his finances and how to distribute them.

If your employees made you successful, they should have bought you out and run the business themselves, or started their own business

[David_Tepper]

"Most US Firms Paid No Income Taxes In the '90's"

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2004/04/11/most_us_firms_paid_no_income_taxes_in_90s/

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Most Firms Pay No Income Taxes"

http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/12/news/economy/corporate_taxes/

David,

If you lose money, why would you expect to pay income taxes.

Everyone of my friends who own businesses pay taxes on their net income.

But, I'm interested, could you tell me how to avoid, legally, corporate and/or personal income taxes on the net income generated by corporations.

What the article didn't address, which is a huge and critical factor in the study, was the number of corporations that transitioned from C corporations to S corporations, and that's a HUGE number.  In addition, most corporations created recently have been S Corporations or LLC corporations, which have their income taxed at the personal level, not the corporate level.

It would have been more intellectually honest of you to include that information

Nothing like being disengenuous, is there David

The article also said the following

The GAO didn't attempt to determine why so many companies were able to avoid paying taxes. It said possible explanations included legitimate deductions for current-year operating losses, losses carried forward from previous years, and sufficient credits to offset any tax liabilities. In addition, it said improper pricing of transactions between US and foreign operations could contribute to tax avoidance.


It also stated:

The percentage of federal tax collections paid by corporations has tumbled from a high of 39.8 percent in 1943 to a low of 7.4 percent last year. It ranged from 10 percent to 11 percent in 1996-2000, the period studied by the GAO. But since World War II, the share paid by individual income tax filers has remained relatively stable, bouncing between 40 percent and 50 percent. Most of the difference is explained by higher payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare.


We went from a manufacturing based economy in 1943 to a non-manufacturing economy in 2004 and from C Corporations to S and LLC corporations

[David_Tepper]

"The GAO report showed that 61 percent of US corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1996 through 2000, a period of rapid economic growth and rising corporate profits."

Pat Mucci -
 
There goes your argument "If you lose money, why would you expect to pay taxes." 

DT

[Patrick_Mucci]

"The GAO report showed that 61 percent of US corporations paid no federal income taxes from 1996 through 2000, a period of rapid economic growth and rising corporate profits."

Pat Mucci -
 
There goes your argument "If you lose money, why would you expect to pay taxes." 

Not really, if one looks at the profits of Microsoft and the other high tech companies during that time frame, does that mean that textile companies, construction companies and manufacturiing companies experienced record economic growth and corporate profits. ?

Just take a look at the Textile industry in the U.S., or what's left of it.

It's shrunk almost to extinction over that period.
But, according to you, they enjoyed record economic growth and profits.

So who's right ?
Not you and not the report you cite.
You have to drill down to get a more accurate depiction of what was happening

As to the issue you've chosen to ignore, a huge issue, don't you think that the transitioning of businesses from C corporations to S and LLC  corporations had a huge impact on that study ?

Lastly, how have bankruptcy filings fared in that period ?

Were they up or down ?

Despite what you may see on TV or read in the papers, business is LOUSY, with NO SIGN of improvement.

Companies are profitable because they cut, cut, cut expenses.
Now, there's very little left to cut.
They need REVENUE, just like golf/country clubs

[Mike_Young]

Well you know what I mean .....
We just have a basic difference of opinion....my self I am grateful for the business owner....most of my projects were funded by these guys....and most of my friends that work for big business are grateful for the jobs they have provided them....but I live in a very liberal town where so many actually hate business....it's weird IMHO....they get up and go to the coffee shops around 10:30..read poetry and hang out for a few hours....then go to work at some place until around 6pm them hang out at some place that only serves vegetables grown locally....then to a music venue until 1am....AND all that is good by me...

The problem with you, Mike Young, is that you've yet to learn the immense benefits of acomoclitism and colonics.  A soothing wax and a warm enema in the morning might just be what you need to see the world in the proper way.  After all, don't you also yearn for "fairness" and "security"?

With the proper progressive regimes and therapies, you might yet arrive at a more empathetic level of consciousness where you learn to hate and undermine your "rich" oppressors, you know, those with whom you enter freely into contracts to build or modify golf courses, and who then tend to pay you in accordance with those agreements.  Bastards!

Lou,
Do you realize how many colonics could be given at one time on a NLE golf course irrigation system if the local community could convert the irrigation heads to small hoses....it would be great for some of these small communities....   they could colonics, organic gardens and hiking trails all in one...

[Craig Sweet]

Pat...i have no problem with you runnng your business your way....but I detect that you are uncomfortable with how I ran my business. First of all, even though my business was MY idea, as the business grew I realized I could not do it all alone , and I realized that I did not have all the answers  for dealing with the success. My employees had ideas and they had energy.  The revenue we generated went back into the business in expansion, upgrades to equipment and higher wages for everyone.  Isnt the point of going into business to be successful?  Not a single employee was added to the payroll...not a single up grade was made, unless the demand was there. If my demand had flattened out there would have been no growth.
My plan all along was to have the employees take over the business so I could do something else...I had no desire to do this for more than 6 or 8 years...I had already put 10 years into the industry and was ready for other challenges.  When no employee stepped up to buy it out I sold everything and moved on...

I am sorry to say Pat...and I do not mean this in a bad way....but your way of doing business is old school. I have to head out now to get some time in at the local ski area...snowing nicely right now!  But if I remember I will write more on why I think your way of running your business is old school and what I see happening now with the young entreprenours I see...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat...i have no problem with you runnng your business your way....but I detect that you are uncomfortable with how I ran my business.
Not at all.
Everyone does things differently, how it works for them.
I was teasing you when I suggested that your employees buy you out or go off on their own.


First of all, even though my business was MY idea, as the business grew I realized I could not do it all alone , and I realized that I did not have all the answers  for dealing with the success.

None of us do it alone, but you have to differentiate between the drivng force behind the business and those who assist with running the businesss

My employees had ideas and they had energy.  The revenue we generated went back into the business in expansion, upgrades to equipment and higher wages for everyone.  Isnt the point of going into business to be successful?  Not a single employee was added to the payroll...not a single up grade was made, unless the demand was there. If my demand had flattened out there would have been no growth.

Demand is sometimes limited by our ability to provide those services.

Just think of a MacDonald's stand.
The demands in the immediate area are limited, but, if you expand, and go to another area, another market, demand is there.
Some businesses are content to remain local, some expand to regional, national and global in search of viable markets.
You can't fault a company for hoarding cash in preparation for expansion to areas where demand exists.

My plan all along was to have the employees take over the business so I could do something else...I had no desire to do this for more than 6 or 8 years...I had already put 10 years into the industry and was ready for other challenges.  When no employee stepped up to buy it out I sold everything and moved on...

I understand completely.
But, had you had the desire to continue to build the business, say for your kids, your thinking would have been different.
You might have chosen to expand to other markets where demand was plentiful.
But, you made a choice, based on your circumstances that made sense to you.
I might make a different choice, I may have wanted to grow the business for my kids (assuming they wanted to pursue it), and that would have taken me on a different path, a longer path where I needed every dollar I could find to invest in the future, not mine, but my kids and their employees.

I am sorry to say Pat...and I do not mean this in a bad way....but your way of doing business is old school.

Working hard and working long hours is NEVER old school.
Working "Smart" is NEVER old school.

I read an interesting bumper sticker the other day.

It said, "work harder, millions of people on entitlement programs are depending on you"

I don't mind working hard, I don't mind working long hours, and I know that I don't mind working smart, as long as the fruits of my labor go to my family and the chaarities I choose to support.

I do mind when the fruits of my labor go to people who don't want to work hard, who don't want to work long hours, who don't want to work smart, who won't make the same committement to their families.

I view taxes and charitable contributions as a responsibility I have to America and my fellow Americans, but, only to a point.
Working hard, and long hours takes its toll, from me and my family, but, those are sacrifices I choose to make for my family.
I don't want to make those sacrifices, at the expense of my health and well being, for the benefit of others not willing to put forth the same committment, here in the U.S. and abroad.

When I donate to a college, I dedicate that revenue.  If I could, when I pay my Federal Income taxes, I wish that I could dedicate that revenue so that NOT A PENNY would go overseas.  I want my tax dollars to help Americans, first, foremost and exclusively

I have to head out now to get some time in at the local ski area...snowing nicely right now!  But if I remember I will write more on why I think your way of running your business is old school and what I see happening now with the young entreprenours I see...

Craig,

I gotta go with what works for me

And, I'm not about to change.
If it ain't broke, don't tinker with it.
My mandate to my clients is rather simple, to provide excellent advice, competitvely priced products and superior service.
Fulfilling that mandate will breed success in any generation, new or old, but, I'm always open to suggestions as to how to improve my business, so I welcome any suggestions or new ideas

[Craig Van Egmond]

Craig S,

    Its nice that you give so much of the credit to your employees and they are a big part of every companies success, however at the end of the day it was you that took the risk, it was you that signed their paychecks and it was you doing the paperwork long after the others were gone.  There are workers and then there are entrepreneurs. My wife owns her own store, and puts in 13 hours a day and make no mistake it is her vision and drive that makes it successful, she treats her employees well, but in the end they come and go. Me, I am very happy to work hard for someone else and leave the headaches to them. I have no problem with the people who take the risks to reap the rewards, if I feel wronged I can move on.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,
Do you realize how many colonics could be given at one time on a NLE golf course irrigation system if the local community could convert the irrigation heads to small hoses....it would be great for some of these small communities....   they could colonics, organic gardens and hiking trails all in one...

And that is one important reason why I give so much credit to modern golf course design and the 2,000 head irrigation systems often required to maintain the considerably larger grounds.  Ralph Plummer once said that the architect of his day had to give great consideration to uses of the surrounding property to enable the course to operate profitably.

Today, you guys have gone well beyond that, thinking of exit strategies and ways to provide alternative uses for the golf grounds themselves.  Very smart.  But perhaps this can be accomplished while the course continues to operate and provide an additional income "stream".   Maybe a grossly underpaid, but highly enterprising worker will come up with a quick coupler and a carrybag attachment to enable the sensitive, socially-minded golfer a quick, relaxing cleansing while waiting for the cart-riding "rich" bastards in front of him to clear the green.

Craig Edgmand,

Maybe you and Mike Young can go in on a couple's package for an attitude-adjusting laser, wax and cleansing.  Don't you know most workers are indentured servants and can't just get up and leave?  Yeah, you're one to talk; you can always go to work for your wife, though, considering matrimonial sociology, she may not extend to you the same good treatment enjoyed by her other employees.  What is the minimum wage in OKC?   

[David_Tepper]

"U.S. Economy Ends 2010 On Strong Note"

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Fed-survey-US-economy-ends-apf-885787053.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

[Craig Van Egmond]

David,

    That article had me until this...  "Economists have said that a tax-cut package signed into law last month should spur people and businesses to spend more money this year. That should lead companies to hire more."

     Come on.. nobody really believes that stuff do they?   

[Jeff Goldman]

Patrick,

Interesting that everything you and other supposed Randians achieve is though ONLY their effort, and public goods, such as law, institutions, infrastructure, educational systems seem to have nothing at all to do with it.  Do you think you would have built the same business or been as successful in Zambia or Mexico?  Given this philosophy, why isn't Mississippi or Louisiana the wealthiest state in the union, with the best of everyting, given how much more liberty there is in those states than in New York, California, New Jersey, etc.?

Jeff

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Interesting that everything you and other supposed Randians achieve is though ONLY their effort, and public goods, such as law, institutions, infrastructure, educational systems seem to have nothing at all to do with it. 

Jeff,

I can assure you that any measure of success that I've had hasn't been aided and abetted by outsiders or the govnernment.

Do you think you would have built the same business or been as successful in Zambia or Mexico? 

If I lived in population centers, yes.

Given this philosophy, why isn't Mississippi or Louisiana the wealthiest state in the union,

Because nobody lives there in terms of population density.

If you lived in a rural town with a population of 900, how successful do you think you'd be given that your market is limited to that local economy ?  But, living in Chicago, Los Angeles or New York gives you greater opportunities, but, with it, more competition.

As the song says, "if you can make it there, (NYC) you can make it anywhere.  New York, New York."

with the best of everyting, given how much more liberty there is in those states than in New York, California, New Jersey, etc.?

You're misguided, it's about the number of people that can buy the products and/or services I vend.
The more people, the greater the opportunity.

I have no doubt that I'd be successful in Mississippi or Louisiana, since hard work, long hours and working smart pay off no matter where you are.  In fact, I have clients in Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi

After you pay your taxes, as required, do you send the balance of your earnings to the IRS ?
Or do you save or spend the excess earnings after taxes on your yourself and your family

Just curious as to your committment to the socialist cause 

[Mike_Young]

I keep reading all this stuff about the economy getting better...
I just read one where some New Jersey dude said he could make a living in the south....I bet we could not even understand him....
We got one economic indicator down here....
They can smother us with all the BS they want but until you see concrete trucks and lumber trucks on the roads everyday....there ain't no recovery....it's that simple....
Well we have 6 inches of snow outside and got to go help all these northern drivers out of the ditch....

[Craig Sweet]

Pat....I tihink most of the attacks on entitlement programs are misinformed.  They are called entitlement programs because you are entitled to the benefits you have paid into.  If you work, you pay taxes, you have SS taken from your pay check, and your have medicare taken out. For some reason many people think someone is getting something for nothing and that simply isnt true.  And, 95% of the people that receive entitlements are retired.

Currently the social security fund has a nearly two trillion dollar surplus and will be paying out 100% benefits for another 25-30 years. With a small adjustment in the income cap from taxing the first $106k of income, to say the first $200k of income, the fund could continue to pay out 100% benefits into the next century.

[Lou_Duran]

Patrick,

Interesting that everything you and other supposed Randians achieve is though ONLY their effort, and public goods, such as law, institutions, infrastructure, educational systems seem to have nothing at all to do with it.  Do you think you would have built the same business or been as successful in Zambia or Mexico?  Given this philosophy, why isn't Mississippi or Louisiana the wealthiest state in the union, with the best of everyting, given how much more liberty there is in those states than in New York, California, New Jersey, etc.?

Jeff

Nice strawman argument Jeff!  The Goldman Rule- one bad forecast by a classical economist = he is a quack with no credibility- continues to expand.

Have you ever met a single individual who advocates no government, no laws, no institutions, no infrastructures, and no educational systems?  I haven't and I know a lot of conservatives and libertarians.

I don't know Mr. Mucci, but if he's made it in NY, he can certainly make it in Mexico and anywhere.  The Chairman says so.

And besides Seņor Slim hasn't done too badly in socialist, corrupt Mexico.

The fact of the matter is that there are thousands of people who can only work for a wage- i.e. depend on others for a job- for every person who has the "necessities" to create an enterprise that provides jobs.  Perhaps the disadvantages of a worker has something to do with what appears to be an immutable economic principle- the law of supply and demand.  Every socialist/facist/"progressive"/"third way" mesiah has tried to substitue his way of ordering the world with only dismal results to show for it.

A Cuban writer commenting on his country's newest plan to lay-off over a million government workers and force them to fend for themselves said that communism is something you try between capitalism and capitalism.  He furtner lamented that it took his devestated country some 52 years to come to this rather simple realization.

The sooner we get over this most current period of denigrating profit, wealth, industry, and achievement, the sooner that labor and our neediest will earn meaningful, satisfactory relief.  I've seen the Cuban tragedy first hand.  My mother saw it twice, in Spain during their civil war and in Cuba following Jan. 1, 1959.  I pray that it doesn't take most Americans 52 years to appreciate the great bounty they have and to stop demandng that a few pay for lifestyles that the most powerful government in world history is miserably helpless and unable to provide.  End of rant, as Mr. Mucci would say.

[Jud_T]

Craig,

Small adjustment?  Sounds like another 7k out of my pocket.  Get in line. Illinois just jacked the state income tax 2%.  But I guess that's just another small adjustment that'll get efficiently passed on to those most in need.

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