[Patrick_Mucci]

golf course architecture, design, be dictated by "costs to maintain" ?

Very few courses aren't feeling significant financial pressure today and probably for some time to come.

Attracting and retaining members is becoming more and more difficult.

Clubs with debt are really struggling to attract and retain members.

Will we see an "AWT like" purging of architectural features that are cost intensive ?

Will new courses, if any are built, be built for financial efficiency, first and foremost ?
Will maintainance costs dictate design and feature inclusion and exclusion ?

Will more country clubs revert to golf club operations ?

If you were joining a club today, what would you look for:
Architecturally
Financially
Socially ?

[Jud_T]

Pat,

I'm probably the poster boy for what you're after.  Used to belong to a local golf club.  Average architecture, limited membership, always perfectly green and greens always rolled perfectly, big clubhouse, dining and banquet facilities, great service, big downstroke and big dues...Because of the economy and the middling architecture which I tired of, I dropped it recently for a national club which has very reasonable downstroke and dues, fantastic architecture, is brown and firm, and minimalist clubhouse and staff...

[Mike Sweeney]

If you were joining a club today, what would you look for:
Architecturally
Financially
Socially ?

Low debt, which means golf only and no social infrastructure. I am clearly not representative of all golfers, but Newport, Yale, Palmetto, Cape Arundel and Mink Meadows are more my cup of tea. The kids are getting older and we have access to a pool club in Connecticut. After some recent bad experiences with less than truthful modern golf course owners, if I wanted to join a new style club, I would do it through Outpost Club or a similar local society to minimize the risk.

[Mike_Young]

My club seems to have an air of invincibility brought on by a younger board that has never seen a downturn.....and having presidents that rarely play golf....  NOW they seem to be waking up a little but they are in the middle of 6 million worth of unnecessary assessment...of course in order to bring in more members...
A few years ago I would say things would revert back to mainly golf based but , as with many clubs today,  the clubs are managed by food and beverage guys...ain't gonna happen at a lot of places..

[Adam Russell]

Well, when your pro shop should be your clubhouse and your real clubhouse would make a nice company headquarters, and 12 guys in loafers come out on their lunch break to tell the architect what to do with a course that had nothing wrong with it in the first place - that's a big problem I saw touring the course with the construction crew during the renovation. I think the problem is with my generation and those just older than me is that we've never had to make club-changing plans because the boomers have had decision power for so long, and my age group feels the need to assume control, puff out their chest, and make a mark. Often an expensive one.

How bad was the end result? I imagine the members are figuring out right about now how much character they lost...

[Jason Hines]

Will more country clubs revert to golf club operations ?

This is my hope.  My current club, which is operating in the black, stabilized membership and old shoe feel is in the process of selling to Billy Casper Golf.

Myself and others are evaluating other clubs in the area, but I don’t think our market is here yet.  I have tried unsuccessfully to carve out golf only memberships at country clubs, but no success.  I have a feeling time is on my side.

[Mark Chaplin]

The Back Sheep, IL model maybe one new clubs will aspire to, a fine course with simple but  very comfortable facilities, lodging and minimal excess.

I was chatting with a fellow GCA'er yesterday who is not joining an architectually interesting club, with reasonable (for the US) rates not because of excess within the club but compulsory caddies. Of course he would take a caddie for the club championship or when entertaining but dropping $120 in caddie fees for a round with his wife is a step too far.

There must be another way of supporting wonderful scholarships without damaging the club and it's member policies.

[Jud_T]

The math is really pretty simple and is what is conspiring against the traditional full service club model:

In lieu of joining a full service club in a major metro area, one can have a great national membership, a fantastic trip to Bandon, all the local public golf one can stomach and plenty of cash left over.  So to join one of these full service establishments, at least one of the following conditions needs to be met:

1.  It's a really special course/club that's simply worth it as a luxury item.

or

2. An incremental $10,000 in after-tax income, not to mention the downstroke, is a minor percentage of one's annual income.

We know #1 is in limited supply and now so is #2....

[Richard Choi]

Pat, I think it is quite simple.

The middle class which used to have access to golf club membership is earning less and less each year, while golf dues are still going up (initiation fees have come down significantly, but dues are increasing because they are losing members).

This situation will inevitably lead to even more exclusivity for golf membership as the weak clubs will die off while the richest of the clubs will flourish as rich are making even more money than before.

I fail to see a scenario where golf becomes less exclusive and less elite in the future.

[JC Jones]

If you were joining a club today, what would you look for:
Architecturally
Financially
Socially ?

Low debt, which means golf only and no social infrastructure. I am clearly not representative of all golfers, but Newport, Yale, Palmetto, Cape Arundel and Mink Meadows are more my cup of tea. The kids are getting older and we have access to a pool club in Connecticut. After some recent bad experiences with less than truthful modern golf course owners, if I wanted to join a new style club, I would do it through Outpost Club or a similar local society to minimize the risk.

Some guy once told me to never join a golf club.

[Mike Sweeney]

Some guy once told me to never join a golf club.

I think you went to the Wardian School of Listening on that one. Currently belong to three down from the peak, but still a believer.

I will acknowledge that it did throw me when you said the words "when I was having dinner at Merion". I still can't get over that one.  I mean who has dinner at Merion Golf Club?   In the words of Tom Paul, "That just isn't done."

[Jud_T]

This situation will inevitably lead to even more exclusivity for golf membership as the weak clubs will die off while the richest of the clubs will flourish as rich are making even more money than before.

Richard,

I guess we don't know the same rich guys...

[Adrian_Stiff]

The American model seems strange to me. You just seem to pay so much and for things you might not need or want. America is normally 10 years in front of us Britts, but with your golf club memberships its like they want to be shut back to 30s.

I think its not so easy with some USA climates to produce F&F because some of your grasses are not so conductive to a rolling ball, plus you have lots of water guarding greens. We notice her (UK) many of our newer courses are unplayable when its frosty because you carry the pond you go 20 yards through the back, so probably quite a few courses have been designed that cant be played F&F.

[Terry Lavin]

I'd look for a course that I'd enjoy playing on a regular basis, whether it was done by a great architect or not.

I'd hope that it was in a location that would allow me to get there without too much trouble.

But most of all, I'd try to make sure that the members are the type of people that I'd enjoy spending time with.  It's the members of a club that are the most important factor in an individual member's happiness.

The architecture of the course is a factor, but it is less than any of the first three, IMHO.

[Matt_Cohn]

What's a downstroke?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Downstroke is the initiation fee. (I think)

[Jim_Kennedy]

'Downstroke' is the least amount you stand to gain from a deal. If you were selling a car for $1,000 and you accepted a deal in which someone offered you $800 now and $200.00 if the car lasted a month, the 'downstroke' is $800, i.e it's the minimum you'll receive.  

I think in this case the club's initiation fee is the 'downstroke'.

[Bill Gayne]

Although the tax laws aren't freindly to this idea but I think the basis of membership for many clubs will need to move away from the individual or family to corporate. For example, the corporation owns ten member spots in the local club and the corporation determines who uses those ten spots. When the individual left the corporation or was transferred to a different location, they also left access to the club. The corporation then fills that spot with the person of their choosing.

[Richard Choi]

Bill, in this age where wages are going down and health insurance premiums are rising astronomically every year, corporate sponsorship of country club membership is not going to fly well with employees...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I think it is quite simple.

The middle class which used to have access to golf club membership is earning less and less each year, while golf dues are still going up (initiation fees have come down significantly, but dues are increasing because they are losing members).

I was looking at some ten (10) year membership statistics at a few clubs and since 2005, they're down 20 % in membership.
That's dramatic and has a dramatic impact on budgets.
And, I don't see the situation getting better any time soon.

This situation will inevitably lead to even more exclusivity for golf membership as the weak clubs will die off while the richest of the clubs will flourish as rich are making even more money than before.

I know a good number of rich people, and NONE of them are making more money than before.
Could you identify these rich people you reference ?
I'd like to know what businesses they're in, and if they have any job opportunities or openings

I fail to see a scenario where golf becomes less exclusive and less elite in the future.

I think it's already happening

[Richard Choi]

As you can see from the graph (share of the total income by top 1%), the top 1% earners in US have been earning more and more since the mid-80's.



You and I may not know these folks, but they are there and doing better and better every year.

[jeffwarne]

As you can see from the graph (share of the total income by top 1%), the top 1% earners in US have been earning more and more since the mid-80's.



You and I may not know these folks, but they are there and doing better and better every year.

So looking at the chart...
were we better off in 1973?
because it didn't feel that way
doesn't the rise in their wealth correspond with the ENTIRE economy improving beginning around 1982

I think most would be better off ( economically) by trying to find a way to join the 1%, rather than trying to trying to think of ways for the 1% join the rest of us

[Brian Marion]

Having recently joined a club, I looked for:

1. A solid, strong golf membership with lots of walking members and a good junior program.

2. People who play golf in all sorts of weather (played today at 44 degrees and a 20 mph wind and there where plenty of others there as well) and enjoy being out with others.

3. As I have two girls ages 11 and 7, a pool. (if I had other community access this would not be a real consideration)

4. A stable, financially solid club that makes smart spending decisions based on need and not "want".

What this means to me is a place where i can play golf at the drop of a hat if I don't have a tee time, there are always regular "games" going off. We have a solid bar that's not too fancy for having drinks after a round and watching sports on the big screen, plus a small grill for sandwiches, hotdogs and burgers. The club does have full dining but it is not overly pretentious and offers good service for those occasions where we want to have a nice dinner. There are many social members who take advantage of this.

What we DO NOT HAVE:

Fitness Room - Workout at the gym!
Huge stone and white column main club house that could house a blimp
Extra large men's and women's locker rooms with own full service bar in each- We have one bar, share!
Shoe service/locker room attendant - Clean your own shoes
Bag boys who want to run a towel over my irons - Clean your own clubs, as you play, if you have dirty clubs after walking off 18, how did you hit the ball?
Valet parking -Park Your own car!
Tennis or Tennis Shop or Pro - Did have, no one played so they dug the courts up and they will be turned into a short game area in the near future.
Caddies - Carry Your own!


I'm sure there is more but our club operates more on the UK model than the really upscale USA model. It's a place to play golf, hang out on a dreary day, have a drink while watching the game, maybe play some cards in the locker room.  I feel good that my kids have a safe place to swim, learn the game and hunt the occasional Easter egg while they are still young enough t think that is cool.

[Doug Siebert]

My home course was is a Robert Bruce Harris, and he's apparently known for designing courses with reduced maintenance costs in mind.  One of his signatures was bunkers that were well away from the green (to allow gang mowers to get in between)

There have been several revisions since then so that nonsense is thankfully long gone.  Other maintenance compromises like single teeboxes for two sets of tees per hole have given way to 3 or 4 teeboxes for four sets of tees per hole.

Hopefully reduced costs will be approached with an eye towards minimizing negative impact on the architecture, or compromising flexibility.  Watering less, fertilizing less, mowing less often, are probably a lot better bang for the buck anyway than restricting architectural freedom on placement of bunkers, teeboxes, etc.

What I never understood is why a guy like RBH would design a course with this type of low maintenance cost philosophy, then build a 13th hole with 2 greens and 7 sets of teeboxes, and a 14th hole with two fairways.  We've still got the two greens, but only 6 teeboxes now on 13, but the second fairway on 14 had already been allowed to grow over before I started playing.  Though perhaps because it suffered from the problem most alternate fairways do - it would have done nothing to help the player, and only made the hole longer

[Sean_A]

As you can see from the graph (share of the total income by top 1%), the top 1% earners in US have been earning more and more since the mid-80's.



You and I may not know these folks, but they are there and doing better and better every year.

So looking at the chart...
were we better off in 1973?
because it didn't feel that way
doesn't the rise in their wealth correspond with the ENTIRE economy improving beginning around 1982

I think most would be better off ( economically) by trying to find a way to join the 1%, rather than trying to trying to think of ways for the 1% join the rest of us

Well Jeff, even in the hard times of 1973 I don't think the future looked nearly as bleak for factory workers and other non-skilled workers as it does today and it doesn't matter a damn about training because there just aren't enough decent jobs to support the population.  Its a sort of musical chairs except for some people are already sitting down.  Shit, I think we can safely say on a whole, the future has never looked less bleak for the have nots in the US.  There is no question there has been an absolute failure on the part of my generation and the previous baby boomer generation to look to the long term future of the US and for the first time our children cannot expect to do better than we did.  We must remember that a lot of wealth has stayed in wealthy hands because we have neglected the future and imo the onus is on the wealthy to change this trend because bad luck can knock on any door. This is in no way a condemnation of capitalism, just a stark look at reality and a reality that doesn't necessarily have to remain the way it is.  Before you retort, I don't know how the wealthy improve things, but I know they are the only ones who can.

I don't know whether or not the current climate will cause it, but cost to maintain features should always be a consideration of design.  

Ciao  

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