Even more lists to argue over-England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales

[Jud_T]

Top100golfcourses has just posted the following updated lists, including positive and negative movement stats from the prior list:

England Top 200:

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/story.asp?id=325

Ireland Top 100:

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/story.asp?id=323

Northern Ireland Top 20:

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/story.asp?id=317

Scotland Top 100:

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/story.asp?id=324

Wales Top 30:

http://www.top100golfcourses.co.uk/htmlsite/story.asp?id=320

[Jud_T]

Nice to see Baltray getting some love....

[Greg McMullin]

Not sure if there is something wrong with me but I'm starting to roll my eyes every time I see or hear about a new Top 100 list. 

[Mark Pearce]

That Scottish list is absolutely bonkers.  Castle Stuart at 16, Prestwick at 17, Renaissance Club at 48 (behind both Archerfield courses!).

Utterly, utterly bonkers.

[Mark Pearce]

Elie is the 62nd best course in Scotland?  Who knew?

[Phil McDade]

Shiksine 77th with a bullet on the Scotland list! Pretty good for all of 12 holes.  Beats out several well-regarded courses.

Fraserburgh up to 60, from 62, and now ahead of Elie -- a surprise. The ratio of posters who have played the latter and not the former is probably 10-1 on this board, and that's too bad -- worth the side trip from the better-known Cruden Bay.

Where is Gary Daughters? Tain now in the top-50, which has to make him happy (maybe it's won him a drink somewhere...)

Boat of Garten down 12, natch -- no love for one of Braid's best inland courses. Still ahead of Renaissance Club, though.

Is Spey Valley really that good at 33, and down 9 spots at that?



 

[Niall C]

Phil

Spey Valley has some good golf and a couple of holes that simply don't work, overall a good course and probably worthy of inclusion but not in the top half IMHO.

Here's ten others which aren't included but I personally would put ahead of quite a few of those listed;

1- Elgin - my "new" favourite of the moment
2 - Cawder - Glasgow parkland course by Braid (I think)
3 - Hamilton - from a part of the country sadly neglected by visitors (Lanarkshire), another Braid design
4 - Strathaven - competes with Hamilton to be best in Lanarkshire
5 - Ranfurly Castle - moorland type course originally laid out by Willie Campbell, 15 mins from Glasgow airport
6 - Erskine - undoubtedly would be deemed too short for some but some cracking golf as provided by Dr MacKenzie and Braid with panoramic views down the Clyde. 10 mins Glasgow airport.
7- Pitreavie - charming Dr MacKenzie layout with number of two tiered greens
8 - Troon (Darley) - inland links surrounded by houses but has plenty of gorse/heather and rolling landscape
9 - Troon (Lochgreen) - similar to Darley but longer, slightly flatter terrain. Used as Open Qualifier
10 - there are a number of candidates for tenth spot including Wishaw, Lockerbie and Granton on Spey but I'll plump for Forres on the basis I've played it more recently and therefore is fresher in the mind. Probably no-ones idea of a great golf course but has some very good golf and a bit of quirk.

Niall

[Mark Chaplin]

The UK top 100 plus the second 100 from Golf World is pretty fair IMO.

Trying to stretch a top 200 from England and a top 100 from Scotland just dilutes things too much.

[Jud_T]

??

European Club over Lahinch?

Old Head over the Island?

Ballybunion Cashen #46?

Kingsbarns over Carnoustie?

and last but not least....

TURNBERRY OVER THE OLD COURSE?

[Steve Salmen]

Mark Pearce,

I am in complete agreement with you about Elie.  In fact, when staying in St. Andrews I tell people to play the Old Course, Carnoustie, and Elie in that order.  It probably loses points because it's not a championship test but it's certainly high on the fun scale.

[David_Tepper]

Niall Carlton (and everyone else) -

I see Inverness made the Top 100 in Scotland. Have you (or anyone else) played it?
With all the time I have spent in the Highlands, I have never heard anyone mention it.

DT

[Bill_McBride]

Not enough raters are getting to Huntercombe - #114 is ludicrous.

[Matt_Ward]

Nothing like the breath of info and expertise when you have aggregate ratings.

Nice to know that stupidity has no boundaries to just the American side of the pond.

[Adrian_Stiff]

??

European Club over Lahinch?

Old Head over the Island?

Ballybunion Cashen #46?

Kingsbarns over Carnoustie?

and last but not least....

TURNBERRY OVER THE OLD COURSE?

Many of those are actualy popular opinion and found in most of the other ratings. I think Old Head would make a lot of peoples top 10 for the views.

[Scott Warren]

This website's attempts at rating lists are often a bit silly, and so it is this time with them listing so many courses.

Huntercombe didn't rate in their English Top 150 previously, but I see it is now 114 in England! Lunacy.

[Sean_A]

All this talk and no one mentioned that The Sacred Nine was not rated in the top 100 of England.  I don't know as I have never seen the course,  but a Doak 9 has got me wondering and sight unseen I would lean much closer to Doak's opinion than Top 100.  

Despite some cockups, I think Top 100 is comfortably the best I have seen with GB&I ratings.  Even so, Scotland having 100 courses is stupid.  It should be more like 25-30 with others listed as possibles to move up/gems.  England should probably be about 40-50.  Though I spose the site is like a magazine in a way - it has to fill space to give the impression of research conducted.

For me, I would have the following English courses in the same general class of quality design and so I would hope to see them grouped reasonably tightly.  You can argue about the order, but the class to me is essentially the same and I would expect to see all of these as comfortable top 100, but not vying for the top few classes (call it 40ish to 60ish) - just talking pure quality of design.  

Kington
Cavendish
Beau Desert
Addington
Princes
Camberley Heath
Northamptonshire Co
Saunton East
Burnham
New Zealand
Wallasey
Little Aston  
Harborne
Notts

Just below the above I would have those listed below and making top 100 as well.

Southfield
Huntercombe
Coxmoor
Stoneham
Prestbury
Saunton West
Worplesdon
Bearwood Lakes

Below these are courses which I think would struggle to make top 100, but probably would make it and be subject to possible demotion as in English football.

Sherwood Forest
Perranporth
Edgbaston
Delamere Forest

The sort of top 15-30 class is

Woking
Rye
Sandwich
Woodhall Spa
Deal
St Georges Hill
Formby
Hoylake
Swinley
Sunny New

Vying for top class I would name St Enodoc and that is the only one I am prepared to stand for.  I haven't played any others I would make a consistent argument for as obvious top 10ish.  

Ciao
 

[Kris Shreiner]

Mark, Steve, Jud and the gang,

I absolutely concur...that Scottish list is a farce!

Nairn at #13? Was Helen Keller the rater? With those greens at their very best, it's a 5 ...and I'm being kind. There aren't four memorable holes on the entire course. Total rubbish!

Renassiance Club at #48? Now here's the biggest insult on the list. You must be joking!

The Castle Course is too high on that list, as is Loch Lomond, which gets exclusivity points that pad the true level of its quality. It's always soft and not the caliber of some better links offerings behind it.

Oh well, I guess these list are designed to stir debate, but that line-up does little but reduce that site's credibility in my view.

P.S.- I do commend them for putting Machrihanish Dunes in good standing, though the course needs some time to heal in and have the playing areas become better defined before it earns that perch it currrently enjoys.

Cheers,

     Kris 
 

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

Have you never played Ganton?  If not, that's a hole in your portfolio that needs urgent attention. 

I think you're a bit harsh on Burnham and Notts.  Certainly Notts, for me, is competitive with somewhere like Swinley, which I tend to think gets slightly over-rated.

You've also got to get to Silloth, there are two courses in your top 15/30 list that I tghink it is at least as good as.

Mark

[Scott Warren]

Mark,

Of all the golf stuff of my own I am excited about, one of the things I am most looking forward to this year is that Sean is playing at Silloth in June for 2-3 days.

Not because if he likes it more than St Enodoc I win 50 quid, it's because I expect him to become the latest, greatest, loudest champion of the course. You're right, of course, it's at least as good as Deal, Rye, Swinley and Woking. Better, probably.

[Niall C]

Niall Carlton (and everyone else) -

I see Inverness made the Top 100 in Scotland. Have you (or anyone else) played it?
With all the time I have spent in the Highlands, I have never heard anyone mention it.

DT

David

I haven't played it but an old college mate of mine was a member there in his youth and I don't recall him raving about it. From memory the Golf World guide has it as 3 star (out of 5) which is above average but a good bit behind a host of other courses. How about you and I do a reckie the next time your over ?

Niall

[Niall C]

Despite some cockups, I think Top 100 is comfortably the best I have seen with GB&I ratings.  Even so, Scotland having 100 courses is stupid.  It should be more like 25-30 with others listed as possibles to move up/gems.  England should probably be about 40-50.  Though I spose the site is like a magazine in a way - it has to fill space to give the impression of research conducted.

Sean,

You can make the list as long as you want, at least until you run out of courses. Presumably therefore you are referring to some sort of cut off based on a certain level of course, if so whats the criteria ? And while I suspect that you've played as many if not more courses throughout the UK than anyone else on here, how many courses have you played that would allow you to make the sort of judgement you make above ?

For instance, how many of the courses have you played on the list in my previous post ?

I tend to agree with suggestion made by Matt Ward on another thread about raters, that these lists become to an extent self-perpetuating. Ratings are compiled from the views of raters and non-raters alike but there views in turn are influenced either consciously or sub-consciously by the ratings.

Niall

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Have you never played Ganton?  If not, that's a hole in your portfolio that needs urgent attention. 

I think you're a bit harsh on Burnham and Notts.  Certainly Notts, for me, is competitive with somewhere like Swinley, which I tend to think gets slightly over-rated.

You've also got to get to Silloth, there are two courses in your top 15/30 list that I think it is at least as good as.

Mark

Mark

I didn't mention a lot of the top name courses, that is why the top end of my selected lists is light, but no, I haven't seen Ganton or indeed a few others (and I have space at the top for these big hitters just in case) such as Silloth, Alwoodley and likely one or two others.  I have tried to get to Alwoodley and Ganton for years and something always interfers.  There are others I haven't seen in far too long so I wouldn't make a judgement on them - Brancaster, Berkshire(s), Sunny Old, Walton Heath(s) - but I have space near the top for these as well because unless my awful memory is seriously awful than I recall I have good feelings about all of these.  This may also help explain why I have Notts, Saunton East and Burnham not quite so high even though I think all of these courses are terrific.  It could well be that in five years I would place all of these higher because we are really talking about fine lines of distinction that really cannot be well defended - well, no better defended than anybody else's defense of their stalwarts.  Besides, I have played all three of these courses quite a bit over the years and so they may suffer from overfamiliarization (huh - what the hell does that mean?). Thats why I always prefer to go with favourites rather than best as in the game itself, much of the time its more about feelings (in this case good feelings) rather than hard yardage and in that case I would prefer to play these over Swinley on most days.  I can tolerate the odd not terribly compelling shot or two in exchange for enough money to dine well on.  Life is about much more than golf.  My goodness aren't those par 3s at Swinley divine? I am an absolute sucker for good one-shotters and and clever short two-shotters and I refuse to seek help in the matter.     

Scott

I keep forgetting the specifics of our bet and I trust in you to hold me accountable - tee hee.  I also hope you realize (by seeing St Enodoc out on its own) that Silloth has a large hill to cllimb that could prove to be a mountain.  Regardless of the bet I am greatly looking forward to playing Silloth. 

Niall

I understand the neat number 100 is, but for my liking I would rather see lists talk about the truly great courses OR talk about the nearly great courses which are still engaging (I probably prefer this sort of this to be honest), but not deserving to be listed as great.  I don't much see the point of celebrating with a top 100 when a country cannot come close to providing enough candidates which we could discuss as great.  It leaves too much room for fluff and in the case of Scotland and England there are some downright mediocre courses mentioned that really don't deserve praise on tis sort of level.  At some point, I think editing is crucial for these lists and that means you need knowledgable folks at the helm.

Ciao

[James Boon]

Niall Carlton (and everyone else) -

I see Inverness made the Top 100 in Scotland. Have you (or anyone else) played it?
With all the time I have spent in the Highlands, I have never heard anyone mention it.

DT

David

I haven't played it but an old college mate of mine was a member there in his youth and I don't recall him raving about it. From memory the Golf World guide has it as 3 star (out of 5) which is above average but a good bit behind a host of other courses. How about you and I do a reckie the next time your over ?

Niall

David, Niall,

I have clients based in Inverness and all those that play golf are members at Inverness. However, there golf day has always been at Nairn and last year was at Castle Stuart. Not exactly a scientific way of judging a course, but I think most people would want to take people to their home club, even if only occasionally?

Cheers,

James

[Melvyn Morrow]

Yet again these lists prove to be a total joke. I could understand if each course has a distillery next door being the real reason for their inclusion but even our individual choice of Single Malts vary so much.

Again I ask what the hell has this type of list got to do with GCA, yes it might be important for a designer to sell himself, but that’s not GCA. Marketing is Marketing not architecture

It’s not a valid subject for this or any other site, it detracts from the real issue ‘The Architecture’

Lists are there for your vanity, you play the game, but have you played each course enough to justify your own opinion of the course. i.e. round in the morning, second round afternoon then repeat in in different weather conditions. Have the courses been rated in the same or different weather conditions?

Nothing wrong with your own tried and tested list as they I expect are the result of many a round over various weather conditions, but even then we may not agree upon the playability of the course.

Lists, are just another few more rolls of toilet paper to confuse and take ones eye of the main point, which is did you f@#K*!g enjoy it, did you have fun when on the course

Let’s get the real debates started on this site, subjects along the lines of Land fit for purpose, what is the real cost of a new course excluding the financial cost of purchasing, housing and running carts and cart tracks – would the savings be seen as really costs effective, enough to undertake the venture? Not these useless lists that are always at the centre of all this criticism.

But then are you on here to talk about GCA, the listing or just promote one’s own vanity. Is GCA.com becoming a golfing facsimile Vanity Fair. Do many really care?

Melvyn

[David_Tepper]

Niall C. & James B. -

Thanks for the comments re: Inverness. It sounds middling at best.
I would love to see Golspie on that list.

DT