Praire Dunes and the pricing of national memberships

[Jason Hines]

I don't know what Prairie Dunes' current deal is, but if Crystal Downs had a national program approaching it, my check would be in the mail.  Unfortunately, at least as of two or three years ago, CD did not have a national program and about the only way I could have been accepted as a member was if I bought property in the neighborhood and waited for my turn on a 10+ year waiting list.

I don't think you can compare Traverse City and Hutchinson though...

You are correct, Traverse City does not have a Braums.

[brad_miller]

Traverse City is wonderful and CD is world class, but I still think PD is a better course. Much longer season also.

[Terry Lavin]

Traverse City is wonderful and CD is world class, but I still think PD is a better course. Much longer season also.

Brad,


I haven't played Crystal Downs yet, but I'd venture to say that the cognoscenti would go in the opposite direction.  I say this even though I absolutely love PD.

[Lou_Duran]

Brad,

Thin out the gunch/natives like CD has and I may come close to agreeing with you.  I am not real wild off the tee, but PD is way too tight for me.  #10 in a typical wind has to be one of the most difficult, scariest mid-iron par 3s in the planet, particularly early in the morning or if you feel the eyes of the members in the diningroom watching you.  (Once, we saw hundreds of burned balls all around the green where they had a fire.)

At least with the presentation during my visit to CD, consistent with Mackenzie's philosophy, errant shots were found and recovery shots were possible.  At PD, you don't even bother looking half the time, and forget about trying to salvage a score with an outstanding recovery.  Though it has a bunch of good holes, PD is an extremely penal course.  Either Mackenzie didn't have that much lasting influence on Maxwell, or the good folks in Hutchinson have a mean streak when it comes to their golf (they are extremely hospitable otherwise).  

[Tony_Muldoon]

Every club in Britain. 

John you should not speak about that which you do not know. 

There are some superb deals for international members usually half or much less than for local GB members.  Its the day rates that are high and although people on here like to say they are kept high by travelling US golfers, GB visitors pay the same rate.


Time you got yourself over here and sampled a very different golf cluture.

[Sean Leary]

Brad,

Thin out the gunch/natives like CD has and I may come close to agreeing with you.  I am not real wild off the tee, but PD is way too tight for me.  #10 in a typical wind has to be one of the most difficult, scariest mid-iron par 3s in the planet, particularly early in the morning or if you feel the eyes of the members in the diningroom watching you.  (Once, we saw hundreds of burned balls all around the green where they had a fire.)

At least with the presentation during my visit to CD, consistent with Mackenzie's philosophy, errant shots were found and recovery shots were possible.  At PD, you don't even bother looking half the time, and forget about trying to salvage a score with an outstanding recovery.  Though it has a bunch of good holes, PD is an extremely penal course.  Either Mackenzie didn't have that much lasting influence on Maxwell, or the good folks in Hutchinson have a mean streak when it comes to their golf (they are extremely hospitable otherwise).  

Hi Lou,

They try to keep the gunch as trimmed as possible but its amazing how fast it grows. I have seen old pictures where it looks much more sparse, but again it is pics and difficult to really see. I wonder whether what they put on the fairways seeps into the gunch and makes it grow faster than the old days. I have heard that at Ballyneal, that it is now becoming harder to find your ball in the native but haven't been in a long time so I can't say. Ballyneal is certainly much wider as well.

I have said this before and I am certainly biased, but I think the unplayable nature of the native at PD keeps it from being one of the very best courses in the world (Doak 10 vs 9 in my book)....

[Scott Warren]

John Kav:

Every club in Britain.

Was that in response to Jeff's enquiry ("Has anyone heard of any other club that costs more as a national member?")?

If so, you are very much mistaken.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think I am so wrong in theory just in definition of membership. Dawson was looking for examples of clubs subsidized by non-locals at a higher rate. I gave him a whole country. I will not go to Britain and be played like a rube on the midway. I may go as a guest of a member someday. Quite the difference.

[JC Jones]

I don't think I am so wrong in theory just in definition of membership. Dawson was looking for examples of clubs subsidized by non-locals at a higher rate. I gave him a whole country. I will not go to Britain and be played like a rube on the midway. I may go as a guest of a member someday. Quite the difference.

As usual John, you bring a new perspective to something.  The UK clubs are generally lauded for their willingness to accept outside/non-member play, albeit at a cost that is usually higher than a typical green fee.  I've not seen, however, someone classify that practice as unsavory.

[Scott Warren]

John:

Even by your Mucci-esque definition of "membership", you're wrong. Very few British clubs as a % are sustained in any meaningful way by tourists as you describe.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think I am so wrong in theory just in definition of membership. Dawson was looking for examples of clubs subsidized by non-locals at a higher rate. I gave him a whole country. I will not go to Britain and be played like a rube on the midway. I may go as a guest of a member someday. Quite the difference.

As usual John, you bring a new perspective to something.  The UK clubs are generally lauded for their willingness to accept outside/non-member play, albeit at a cost that is usually higher than a typical green fee.  I've not seen, however, someone classify that practice as unsavory.

I don't think it is unsavory for me to give $5 to try to throw a ring around a coke bottle.  Unsavory is not the right term.

[JC Jones]

Too soft or too harsh?

[John Kavanaugh]

John:

Even by your Mucci-esque definition of "membership", you're wrong. Very few British clubs as a % are sustained in any meaningful way by tourists as you describe.

And very few British women are attractive but I still miss Lady Di.  I'm kinda digging Kate too. You know what I mean.

[Gene Greco]

  
[/quote]
I have said this before and I am certainly biased, but I think the unplayable nature of the native at PD keeps it from being one of the very best courses in the world (Doak 10 vs 9 in my book)....
[/quote]

Sean:

Prairie Dunes has been considered one of the greatest courses in the world for decades.

And I completely agree with your statement.

The gunch diminishes some of  the enjoyment of playing at PD in the same manner  as fairways bordered ubiquitously by water on many Florida courses.

Keeps it at 9 on DS but would be a 10 if this stuff could somehow be eradicated.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I don't think I am so wrong in theory just in definition of membership. Dawson was looking for examples of clubs subsidized by non-locals at a higher rate. I gave him a whole country. I will not go to Britain and be played like a rube on the midway. I may go as a guest of a member someday. Quite the difference.

Read my post again.

At famous clubs in Britain it’s true that members’ dues are kept low (subsidized) because they allow a significant amount of outside play. Americans pay the same rates as everyone else.  If I choose to visit those clubs I call up and ask the rate and when I’ve turned up and they put me out with someone else I have played with ‘mercans, Aussie’s, Swiss, French...   obody is taken as a rube and to me that’s MORE democratic.  I might add that even at the top clubs playing as an unheralded visitor you will often pay less  over here than many unaccompanied GUEST FEES at equivalent US courses.


I’ve tried many times to get you to see that things are really different over here, still Golf, just different. I never thought I’d ask you this but

John what are you afraid of?

[Sean_A]

I don't think I am so wrong in theory just in definition of membership. Dawson was looking for examples of clubs subsidized by non-locals at a higher rate. I gave him a whole country. I will not go to Britain and be played like a rube on the midway. I may go as a guest of a member someday. Quite the difference.

As usual John, you bring a new perspective to something.  The UK clubs are generally lauded for their willingness to accept outside/non-member play, albeit at a cost that is usually higher than a typical green fee.  I've not seen, however, someone classify that practice as unsavory.

I don't think it is unsavory for me to give $5 to try to throw a ring around a coke bottle.  Unsavory is not the right term.

JakaB

Unsavory...hhmmm.  I wouldn't call the system unsavory, but it does serve a purpose and I believe it is a win-win deal except for courses which are publicly owned - but I won't get started on that.  I seem to recall you had several invites from Brit members to come over on guest or even no fee, but to date you have not been so inclined.  I knwo you like to hit the big guns quite a bit, but I suspect you also play a decent share of little guns.  It is these courses, many of which are a match for the big guns in terms of a day out, which I assume you wouldn't object to paying $100 for the priviledge of visiting.  Afterall, that has to represent good value against some of the guest fees in the States - plus you get to get out of the shadow of all those suck ups.  

BTW Spangles is right.  Country/national membership at a great many fine clubs costs less than a few months dues at many US clubs.  I pay about $1100 year for my two memberships (that is both, not each), but of course, I need your visitor cash to keep my dues low - tee hee.  Of course, the bar won't store 20 beers and you have to get off your (the royal your) fat ass to walk to the bar to place an order, but its a small price to pay.  

Ciao

[Sean Leary]

 

I have said this before and I am certainly biased, but I think the unplayable nature of the native at PD keeps it from being one of the very best courses in the world (Doak 10 vs 9 in my book)....
[/quote]

Prairie Dunes has been considered one of the greatest courses in the world for decades.

And I completely agree with your statement.

The gunch diminishes some of  the enjoyment of playing at PD in the same manner  as fairways bordered ubiquitously by water on many Florida courses.

Keeps it at 9 on DS but would be a 10 if this stuff could somehow be eradicated.
[/quote]

Gene,

Maybe not quite as bad as water but not far off. I somehow seem to have gotten better at finding my balls there but it isn't ideal, that is for sure. As I said above to Lou, they try like hell to thin it out but its cost prohibitive to do it more than they do.

Question, has the native at SH gotten worse over time or is it the same (I have heard that it is much more playable than PD)? Just curious for my theory.

 

[Gene Greco]

Sean:

     The native at Sand Hills has thinned out in most areas which are more likely to receive a mishit. Increased traffic doesn't allow the native to thicken.

However, 17 years later there are areas which render finding a ball unlikely. Right side of 4th fairway,  the 6th short and wide right (don't ask , 11th right and short of the green past those beautiful purple flowers (which are small consolation for ever being there).  

Many have played the same ball for days at a time so recovery has a high probability.

I believe Huckaby played the same ball for all four days and then sent it back to Achushnet for a refund as it was "damaged."

         Gene

[Sean Leary]

Sean:

     The native at Sand Hills has thinned out in most areas which are more likely to receive a mishit. Increased traffic doesn't allow the native to thicken.

However, 17 years later there are areas which render finding a ball unlikely. Right side of 4th fairway,  the 6th short and wide right (don't ask , 11th right and short past those beautiful purple flowers which are small consolation for ever being there. 

Many have played the same ball for days at a time so recovery has a high probability.

I believe Huckaby played the same ball for all four days and then sent it back to Achushnet for a refund as it was "damaged."

         Gene

Got it. Not like PD at all

I had a round there last year where the foursome I was in did not lose a ball. Other than that, balls get lost. Often. And it is frustrating, for sure.

[brad_miller]

Have only played a handful of rounds at PD with one ball. Last year in stroke play tried to play out twice only being a yard or so into the heavy stuff, thought I could clearly get out advance ball, both time I would have been better taking unplayable. Live and learn. The other thing they could do would be to push back the gunch 3-10 yards in spots, that extra area would help a lot, if more important when the wind is really up.  So I agree with the issues related to the gunch but still think with all recent good works it gets to 10. Ten rounds CD/PD 5 each for me.

Wonder why the golf digest fellas don't love it more?? Shot values anyone, anyone.

But back to Jeff Dawson's question, sounds like the LT plan is to build an even larger National Membership (and more on site housing for guests) as they are not able to replace locals one for one. Have to give them credit for putting plan in place, that said the difference seems hard to get at least my arms around. They have to understand that because of all the local special events (which Nat can play in, but usually not guests it has fewer days for Nat to come in with guests than a pure Nat club. Also not open on Monday during high season. Maybe they will begin paring back some of the less attended local events. Have always enjoyed playing with the locals and this shift will give it the best of both worlds, fun local membership, so Nat can travel out there on his/her own but also bring guests.

[Gene Greco]

Brad:

   The widening of 10 yards in certain areas would push it over the top for me.

Right now it's a 10 for better players and straight hitters like yourself.

Just a great overall examination of one's game.

     Gene

[Scott Szabo]

Sean:

     The native at Sand Hills has thinned out in most areas which are more likely to receive a mishit. Increased traffic doesn't allow the native to thicken.

However, 17 years later there are areas which render finding a ball unlikely. Right side of 4th fairway,  the 6th short and wide right (don't ask , 11th right and short of the green past those beautiful purple flowers (which are small consolation for ever being there).  

Many have played the same ball for days at a time so recovery has a high probability.

I believe Huckaby played the same ball for all four days and then sent it back to Achushnet for a refund as it was "damaged."

         Gene

I think Huckaby needs to get back here to defend his honor 

[Adam Clayman]

It isn't so much the thick gunk that's holding PD back. Its keeping the primary rough so thick and fairways too narrow. Indirectly, stopping balls from getting to the thickets, covering delicious ground contours and limiting one of the fundamental principles that balls should bounce and roll to their often unpredictable conclusion. 

[Sean Leary]

It isn't so much the thick gunk that's holding PD back. Its keeping the primary rough so thick and fairways too narrow. Indirectly, stopping balls from getting to the thickets, covering delicious ground contours and limiting one of the fundamental principles that balls should bounce and roll to their often unpredictable conclusion. 

Totally 100% disagree, Adam. As you know. 

If the gunch were playable I would agree but since it isn't it saves a lot of balls from going in. Trust me, I am on the edges a lot. Certain holes (like 17 second shot) I would widen, but other than that, the rough is so playable, it helps more than it hurts.

[Lou_Duran]

Sean,

I think that like with Colonial's bent grass greens, the gunch at PD is part of the lore and tradition of the club and not likely to change no matter how much it would improve playability and enjoyment.  I suspect that the supt.  encourages the gunch, or at least allows fertilizer and irrigation water to gravitate to the likely foul zones.

Set to join the club based on reports by Brad and others, I played two rounds at PD in 2006 with two members who were excellent golfers and we didn't come close to breaking 80.  They stated that thinning the gunch as well as adding a few back tees were being discussed, but both issues were very divisive.  I liked the routing and major design features of the course, but not its penal nature, so I didn't pull the trigger.

I returned in 2006, played four rounds with three other guys, and we didn't have a single round in the 70s.  The gunch was even higher and thicker than I remembered.  I haven't thought about joining since, and it is not a real bad drive from Dallas.  But why change if things appear to be working just fine as evidenced by a waiting list for Natl. members?