It all starts at the end.

[David_Tepper]

Pat Mucci -

I have never been to Augusta National, but the universal reaction I have heard or read from everyone visiting the course for the 1st time is that the property is far more hilly/sloped than it appears to be on TV.

Based on what I have seen on TV, greens #13, #16 and #18 certainly appear to have an appreciable amount of contour as well. You often see balls landing on those greens within 10-15 feet of the pin, yet catching a contour of the green and rolling 40-50 feet away from the pin. You sometimes see people aiming their lag putts at a 90 degree angle to a given pin position. You also see players using the contours behind a given pin position as a backstop they can use to roll their approach shots, pitches or chips back towards the hole, as Tiger did on his famous chip-in on #16.

But, getting back to my original premise, do you believe contoured greens are as suitable/desirable on a hilly/sloped course as they are on a flattish course?   

DT
   

[Ronald Montesano]

one guy who fits the model you've set of high handicap-great putter...hardly a ringing endorsement of the theory.

just as one can't compare 2nd-shot approaches with 3rd-shot approaches, one also may not compare the mindset of the lower handicap with that of the higher one.  what the lower h/c sees, the higher h/c will never see, never consider and often wonder "why did I get such a bad break?" when the ball lands on the wrong side and deflects in oblivion (or worse!)

[Tim Martin]

"Can you name five (5) really good golf courses on hilly/sloped sites ?"

Pat Mucci -

Here in San Francisco, the Olympic Club Lake Course and the Presidio GC are two very good courses built on hilly/sloped land that offer plenty of uneven fairway lies. While the greens on both course do have slopes that reflect the nature of the overall properties they are built on, most of the greens on both courses have little, if any, contour.   

Would you not agree that, as mentioned in a prior thread, Augusta National is a great course built on a hilly/sloped site?
There's no question that significant elevation changes exist from the 1st tee to the 11th green, but, it's not a hilly course.
The transition from one elevation to another are quite unique.
# 6 and # 10 are very effective in that regard

Many, if not most of the lies are fairly flat on the approach.
Of the 14 non par 3's,
# 1, # 3, # 5, # 7, # 8, # 10, # 14, # 15, # 17

Based on what I have seen on TV, the greens there do have contours, but the greens there do appear to be quite large, which mitigates the contours to some extent.

I think slope is more prevalent than contour, although greens like # 5 and # 14 have a good deal of contour
   

Pat-Doesn`t 1 play up a hill and 10 down a hill at ANGC? Your earlier question asked to name 5 really good courses on hilly/sloped sites and didn`t refer to what type of lie you had on the approach. Maybe I misunderstand your definition of hilly as it relates to changes in elevation. Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat Mucci -

I have never been to Augusta National, but the universal reaction I have heard or read from everyone visiting the course for the 1st time is that the property is far more hilly/sloped than it appears to be on TV.

It's not a hilly golf course, but, it does have some impressive elevation changes.
I think part of the genius in the design is how Dr AM gets you from the 1st tee to the 9th green, and from the 10th tee to the 18th green without many sidehill lies.  # 2 and # 9, # 11 and # 18 being the primary transition holes.

Based on what I have seen on TV, greens #13, #16 and #18 certainly appear to have an appreciable amount of contour as well.
The use of "tiers" rather than random contouring is what you find at  # 13, # 16 and # 18, although the tier on # 18 differs in configuration from those on # 13 and # 16.

You often see balls landing on those greens within 10-15 feet of the pin, yet catching a contour of the green and rolling 40-50 feet away from the pin. You sometimes see people aiming their lag putts at a 90 degree angle to a given pin position. You also see players using the contours behind a given pin position as a backstop they can use to roll their approach shots, pitches or chips back towards the hole, as Tiger did on his famous chip-in on #16.

That's the influence of "tiers"

But, getting back to my original premise, do you believe contoured greens are as suitable/desirable on a hilly/sloped course as they are on a flattish course?   

Yes

[Scott Warren]

Pat,

ANGC aside, I'll add:

The Addington
New South Wales
Olympic (Lake)
Pine Valley
The Berkshire (Red)
Swinley Forest, and
Worplesdon

to the previous nominations of:

Pennard
Eastward Ho!
Kapalua Plantation
Cape Breton Highland Links
Taconic

for great courses on hilly sites.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott Warren,

Pine Valley is NOT a hilly course.

North Jersey IS a hilly course

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Tepper,

In thinking about terrain and contoured to highly contoured greens, # 1 and # 3 at NGLA immediately spring to mind.

Both greens are highly contoured and the holes play on uneven terrain.

You could probably extend that list to include # 11, # 12, # 15 and # 16.

I don't think that holes over undulating terrain should be excluded from having contoured to highly contoured putting surfaces.

It's up to the architect to combine the two so as to present a challenge that's fun to meet.

[Scott Warren]

Patrick:

At Pine Valley:

1 flat
2 steep uphill approach
3 downhill
4 uphill tee shot, downhill approach
5 largely flat (over a steep hilly "canyon")
6 flat (over a gigantic hill gouge off the tee)
7 flat
8 downhill fairway
9 largely flat
10 flat
11 flattish
12 flat
13 uphill drive, flat approach over/flanked by steep gouge
14 steeply downhill
15 uphill
16 downhill
17 uphill
18 downhill drive

What exactly is your definition of a hilly course?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

At Pine Valley:

1 flat
2 steep uphill approach
3 downhill
4 uphill tee shot, downhill approach
5 largely flat (over a steep hilly "canyon")
6 flat (over a gigantic hill gouge off the tee)
7 flat
8 downhill fairway
9 largely flat
10 flat
11 flattish
12 flat
13 uphill drive, flat approach over/flanked by steep gouge
14 steeply downhill
15 uphill
16 downhill
17 uphill
18 downhill drive

15 and 16 are so gradually uphill and downhill as to render them fairly flat  The DZ on 13 is flat.

Like many courses, the par 3's are the transition holes for elevation changes and # 14 should be a poster boy for same.

What exactly is your definition of a hilly course?

NORTH JERSEY

[David_Tepper]

Pat Mucci -

Can you please describe how "random contouring" is different from "tiers?" Aren't tiers the result on contours?


DT  

[Scott Warren]

Who cares if the DZ on 13 is flat. Is it higher than the tee?

The only holes that are "flat" at PV are 1, 7, 10, 12.

There are small elevation changes at 9, 11, 13, 15 and 16.

There are major elevation changes at 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,  8, 14, 17 and 18.

4 flat holes, 5 that are somewhat "hilly" and another 9 that play over extreme changes in elevation.

But I realise that, having proclaimed "the sky is purple", there's no way you'll be backing down.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Who cares if the DZ on 13 is flat. Is it higher than the tee?

The only holes that are "flat" at PV are 1, 7, 10, 12.

There are small elevation changes at 9, 11, 13, 15 and 16.

# 9 is essentially flat with minor elevation changes

There are major elevation changes at 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,  8, 14, 17 and 18.

There is NO elevation change at # 5 and # 6.
# 8 is minor as is # 17.
DZ to green on # 18 is benign

4 flat holes, 5 that are somewhat "hilly" and another 9 that play over extreme changes in elevation.

But I realise that, having proclaimed "the sky is purple", there's no way you'll be backing down.

The course isn't hilly/sloped.

There is some play from elevated tees to lower fairways, but, I don't consider that to be hilly, especially on par 3's.

North Jersey is a hilly course

[Ronald Montesano]

Is North Jersey a hilly course?

[Scott Warren]

Patrick: here's a pic of 5. No elevation change?



#9: I say "small elevation changes" you say "minor elevation changes"...

#8: If the fairway were snow-covered you could ski down it.

#18: DZ to green has just a bit of undulation, of course that ignores the steep hill you drive down...

You say there is "some play from elevated tees to lower fairways". That is still elevation change, is it not? regardless, what do you make of the:

1. Steeply uphill approach to #2?
2. Uphill drive at #4 and downhill approach to the green on the same hole?
3. Valleys traversed with the tee shots on #5 and #6?
4. Uphill second and third shots at #15?
5. Uphill approach to #17?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick: here's a pic of 5. No elevation change?

It's a par 3 with little if any elevation change between tee and fronting fairway and green.
No one plays down to the water.



#9: I say "small elevation changes" you say "minor elevation changes"...

#8: If the fairway were snow-covered you could ski down it.

#18: DZ to green has just a bit of undulation, of course that ignores the steep hill you drive down...

You say there is "some play from elevated tees to lower fairways". That is still elevation change, is it not? regardless, what do you make of the:

1. Steeply uphill approach to #2?  agreed
2. Uphill drive at #4 and downhill approach to the green on the same hole?
3. Valleys traversed with the tee shots on #5 and #6?  The valleys DON'T come into play.
Those are both level holes tee to fairway to green
4. Uphill second and third shots at #15?  The second shot isn't really uphill, the third is slightly uphill
5. Uphill approach to #17?It's slightly uphill

Next you'll be tellling me that Pinehurst # 2  and Shinnecock are hilly due to the natue of some shots

Pine Valley is not a hilly/sloped golf course.

How many times have you played it ?

The back nine at Yale is hilly

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

A "golf course" is more than the tees, driving zones and greens. Judge the property. On a hole, judge what lays between the tees and the green.

You cannot argue that #5 is not on a dramatic, undulating piece of ground.

I'm sure you've probably not played The Addington, but going by your flawed logic, the 9th there also has no undulation because the tee, DZ and green are level.

[Sean_A]

Pat Mucci -

I presumed you were asking us to consider a larger golf universe than just southern Florida, especially since you did not mention where the course you played (and based your observations upon) was located.  

As I stated in my prior post, I would agree that more contoured greens are appropriate for courses that are on a "pretty flat canavas."

Do you think more contoured greens are appropriate on courses that are on a hilly/sloped "canvas?"

Can you name five (5) really good golf courses on hilly/sloped sites ?

DT
 

I am assuming there will be some sort of exquisite Muccian definition for a hilly course - perhaps to include a minimum of 100 feet of elevation on twelve holes with no fewer than six skyline greens.

Ciao

Scott

I knew this was heading toward nonsense before you ever approached the batter's box.  Take your walk to first base then try to steal second. 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean,

It was clearly on an express track to absurdity when Pat started dealing in define-as-I-go absolutes, but you know me - I never saw a low-hanging piece of fruit I didn't reach for...

I did miss Pat's "nobody plays down near the water" before. My member mate made a point of telling me on the tee that many of his mates among the membership are known in important rounds to lay up just over the water, then pitch on, but what do I know...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

A "golf course" is more than the tees, driving zones and greens. Judge the property. On a hole, judge what lays between the tees and the green.

If it's not in play, it's pretty much irrelevant.

You cannot argue that #5 is not on a dramatic, undulating piece of ground.

Of course I can.
There's nothing undulating about the hole.
Like # 10 at Bel Air, you hit from a tee to a fronting fairway and green that's at the same approximate elevation.

There's NOTHING "HILLY" about the play of the hole.

However, # 10 at Yale is HILLY, as are other holes at Yale.

I'm sure you've probably not played The Addington, but going by your flawed logic, the 9th there also has no undulation because the tee, DZ and green are level.

I'm not qualified to comment on play at Addington as I've never played it.

Are you and Sean Arble qualified to comment on the play at Pine Valley ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott Warren & Sean Arble,

I always enjoy listening to two blind men describing an elephant based on their limited knowledge of the subject.

Scott, your "member mate" is either an idiot, or you misunderstood him.

NO ONE, REPEAT, NO ONE, plays down just above the water.

It's a sloped bank, laden with heavy rough and would leave one with a totally blind shot to a green that you don't want to go right or over, unless you enjoy X's on your card.

NO ONE, REPEAT, NO ONE plays down just above the water as you claimed.

And, for Sean Arble to champion your post/s shows how ignorant he is when it comes to the play at Pine Valley.
That ignorance is exceeded only by his arrogance in assuming that you and he know more about the play of Pine Valley than I do.

# 5 is a relatively flat hole from tee to green and the fairway fronting the green, not unlike the 10th at Bel Air.

[Niall C]

Patrick

I've never played Pine Valley so perhaps you can help me out. On the hole in the photo, how do you get from the tee to the green, do you walk or do you just levitate across the water ? Secondly, is it possible that at least once in the history of the club, some duffer has failed to reach the green or indeed has not been capable of hitting the green and has consequently hit it short ? Or perhaps anything other than short grass is constituted as out of bounds ?

Niall

[Scott Szabo]

Your final, green line sums up my point:  getting to the putting surface is another matter.

I interpreted the thread to meld both the green for putting's sake and for its influence on the approach shot and other, prior strikes.  If we're discussing higher handicap golfers, their enjoyment/valuation of the green-as-influence-on-hole should be more limited to its worth as a putting surface, only, due to their inability to caress a drive and an approach shot as they wish.

That's incorrect.

You can't equate the tee to green abilities of a better player to a mediocre to poor player.
They're NOT going to hit greens in regulation.
Instead, their third shots (par 4) will be their approach shots, and as such, they face the same dilema with the approach and their recoveries.

I agree that a higher handicap can be a decent putter...I cannot recall a single very good putter with a high handicap.  With a middle (around 14) handicap, yes, but it's usually an older player whose long game has sunk with age.

I've been playing with a guy for 45 years, who's now 85.  He continues to putt like a demon.
He's a 24 handicap, but putts incredibly well.  He thinks he should hole everything.
If I could putt like him, you would have heard of me in golf circles.

I only need look in the mirror to see a quite decent ball striker with an inconsistent putting stroke.

That's funny, from the stories I've been told, you DO putt like that fella.  Of course, when the prevailing winds aren't blowing at Sand Hills, the putts are bound to fall!     Your host that day went on and on about your ability to make putts...

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've never played Pine Valley so perhaps you can help me out. On the hole in the photo, how do you get from the tee to the green, do you walk or do you just levitate across the water ?

There are several methods.
You can take the tram, in the woods to the right.
You can walk on the path to the woods on the left.
You can be driven from the tee to just left and behind the green in a car on the road that parallels the hole.
Or, you can walk down the front of the tee, swim across and then walk back up to the green
Or, you can take the club's helicopter which goes back and forth between the adjancent parking lot to the practice range, with stops at the 6th, 8th, 13th and 15th tees.

Secondly, is it possible that at least once in the history of the club, some duffer has failed to reach the green or indeed has not been capable of hitting the green and has consequently hit it short ? Or perhaps anything other than short grass is constituted as out of bounds ?
 
I can see how using the photo as your sole guide to the configuration and play of the hole could cause you and others to appear to be idiots.

Had you and others taken the time to access "Google Earth" you would have seen that the area beyond and above the road/path/bunker, a considerable area, is ALL FAIRWAY.  That road/path/bunker cuts right across the picture and is fronted by heavier, discolored rough.

That's the area that many, if not most, golfers attempt to land in, giving them a chip/pitch to the green.

Rather than rely on a single photo and the interpretation of two bozos who have never played the golf course, embark upon a journey aboard the "HMS Due Diligence" and you'll learn far more, or, you could just take my word for it.
Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Your final, green line sums up my point:  getting to the putting surface is another matter.

I interpreted the thread to meld both the green for putting's sake and for its influence on the approach shot and other, prior strikes.  If we're discussing higher handicap golfers, their enjoyment/valuation of the green-as-influence-on-hole should be more limited to its worth as a putting surface, only, due to their inability to caress a drive and an approach shot as they wish.

That's incorrect.

You can't equate the tee to green abilities of a better player to a mediocre to poor player.
They're NOT going to hit greens in regulation.
Instead, their third shots (par 4) will be their approach shots, and as such, they face the same dilema with the approach and their recoveries.

I agree that a higher handicap can be a decent putter...I cannot recall a single very good putter with a high handicap.  With a middle (around 14) handicap, yes, but it's usually an older player whose long game has sunk with age.

I've been playing with a guy for 45 years, who's now 85.  He continues to putt like a demon.
He's a 24 handicap, but putts incredibly well.  He thinks he should hole everything.
If I could putt like him, you would have heard of me in golf circles.

I only need look in the mirror to see a quite decent ball striker with an inconsistent putting stroke.

That's funny, from the stories I've been told, you DO putt like that fella.  Of course, when the prevailing winds aren't blowing at Sand Hills, the putts are bound to fall!     Your host that day went on and on about your ability to make putts...

Scott, even a clock that's stopped is right twice a day.
Every now and then the putting gods smile on me.

My better work that week was in helping Chris with his putting.
His golfing future is ahead of him, mine's behind me.

[JESII]

Pat,

I'm not sure how this devolved into a question of slope/hilly enough site, but to your initial point...do you think at a certain point higher handicaps players do not need to be tested with highly contoured greens?