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Steve_ Shaffer

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From Private to Public...
« on: December 30, 2010, 05:53:54 PM »
Peter Finch mentions Ravisloe and Superstition Mountain in the article in GD:

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2011-02/peter-finch-finance

He also lists 5 others, including Inniscrone.

Any others out there?


"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

David_Tepper

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2010, 06:06:49 PM »
The golf course in San Francisco's Presidio was limited to civilian club and military personnel play for roughly its first 100 years. It has been operated by the Presidio Trust as daily fee public course for the past 12 or so years. 

Andy Troeger

Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2010, 06:15:23 PM »
I've seen various advertisements for public play at Seven Canyons in Sedona, AZ and The Rim GC in Payson, AZ. I believe I read recently that The Rim completed conversion from the original developer to being member-owned, but don't quote me on that.

Both of those clubs are well worth playing if one gets the chance, especially The Rim. Seven Canyons is stunning, but the views overwhelm the golf course a bit.

Doug Wright

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2010, 06:31:50 PM »
Steve, the private to public phenomenon is not limited to recent times. Below is a post I made about Wellshire GC in Denver a couple years ago in a thread titled The Great Depression and its effects on great golf courses

Post by: Doug Wright on October 11, 2008, 08:00:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here in Denver, Wellshire GC, a private country club with a Donald Ross-designed course that opened in 1927, succumbed to the Depression and was purchased out of bankruptcy by the City of Denver in 1935 for $60,000. Over $250,000 had been invested in the club--$75,000 in the tudor style clubhouse alone. Wellshire remains a city owned public course today.

I wonder if we'll be seeing more of this sort of thing in the coming months/years.




 
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Mike Cirba

Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2010, 06:33:48 PM »
Steve,

Didn't you post a few in Delaware who went Pri to Pub this past year?   I'm forgetting the specifics, but I thought at least 2 or 3.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2010, 06:42:21 PM »
I forgot Reading CC and Berkleigh CC in Berks County, PA.

The DE courses- Hercules and 3 Little Bakers went from private to public to  "outta here."

Southern Dunes, near PHX, is another recent private to public.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Phil_the_Author

Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2010, 06:44:44 PM »
David,

      The golf course at the Presidio was originally designed and built by the members of the newly-organized San Francisco Golf Club. It opened for play on May 23, 1896. Although the lease agreement for the property that SFGC had with the military allowed for public play, actually very little occurred because their membership was given preference over anyone else who would show up to play.
      In 1904, the Army’s recently appointed newest general, Douglas Macarthur, was named commandant over the Pacific forces. Macarthur hated golf and was greatly annoyed that there was a golf course on his base, so he decided to hold a full-out practice war games. Because the golf course was on land that was green and soft he decided that it was a perfect spot for the ARTILLERY and the CAVALRY to conduct their portions of the game. Basically they pretty much destroyed the course.
      This is how it was reported on in the San Francisco Chronicle:

 February 26, 1904 - Marks Of War On Golf Links

      "Gun wheels and Horses' hoofs will tear the Presidio's swards - inspection today. The thorough inspection which is being made at the Presidio by Inspector-General Pratt and his assistant Major J.P. Wisser, was continued yesterday. In the morning Major Wisser tested the Ninth Cavalry in "first aid to the injured" work, and in fencing. During the afternoon the field artillery were carefully looked over.
      "Some work of a practical nature will be done this morning, as it is the intention of the of the inspecting officers to have the cavalry and the field artillery out in service conditions. The inspection and review, according to the orders promulgated yesterday, will take place on the Presidio golf links at 9 o'clock today. There will be four troops of cavalry and three batteries of artillery under arms. Major Bigelow will be in command. The wail of the golfers over the destruction of the level swards will thus go unheeded. Just what four troops and three batteries can do in the way of cutting up ground will be seen after today's exercises., for in addition to the ordinary field maneuvers the troopers and the gunners will be exercised in making camp and in digging shelter trenches. The golfers will have some startling "hazards" when the soldiers get through."

March 1, 1904 - Troops Fight On Golf Links

"Colored Cavalrymen Reproduce Battle of San Juan on a Small Scale"
      "The rattle of musketry along the Presidio heights yesterday morning disturbed the late sleepers in the southwestern section of the city... Major Bigelow of the Ninth colored Cavalry was exercising his dusky squadron in field sorties.
      "The battle was a miniature San Juan Hill. Disparity in the number of troops engaged and the absence of bullets in the cartridges and the very evident fact that attackers and attacked alike wore the uniform of Uncle Sam...
      "The hill of the golf links was the point to be defended..."

March 2, 1904 – Colored Troops To Be Inspected

"Squadron of Ninth to Be Drilled on Golf Links" - "The thoroughgoing inspection which the troops and quarters at the Presidio are now having at the hands of Inspector-general Pratt and his assistant Major Wisser, was continued yesterday, the quarters of the artillery coming under observation. This morning the Ninth Cavalry squadron will be inspected on the golf links in mounted and dismounted drill in close and extended order. major Bigelow does not intend his command to be behind any squadron in the service..."

The determined members of the SFGC actually held a previously scheduled match on the course the next day, March 3rd. The newspaper reported that the course was in “rough condition.”

They decided to move to a new location and built an 18-hole course in Ingleside where they would stay until another move to their present location in 1918.

Ironically, they day after the club moved, the Army signed a new lease for the existing course to continue being used, this time by the Presidio Golf Club, another private entity. They had the same arrangement as SFGC and so the public play was still limited to only times when members of the club were not playing.

Mike Cirba

Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2010, 06:44:56 PM »
Steve,

Too bad...wasn't there another one down there?  

I'm thinking it was Brandywine perhaps?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2010, 06:56:32 PM »
Mike,

Brandywine CC in Wilmington, DE is now semi-private.

WrenDaleGC in Hershey, PA went from private to semi-private and then was sold to the Hershey Company is now  public as Hershey Links.

What was the former name of the club in Harriburg that was purchased by the Felicita Resort? it's a 1962 Gordon course.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

David_Tepper

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2010, 08:07:22 PM »
Philip Young -

Thanks for the back story on the golf course at the Presidio. As a member of the Presidio Golf Club there from 1983-99, I am well acquainted with the course's unique origins and history, as it is one of the oldest courses west of the Mississippi. I have a copy of the PGC's 100-year book (Golf at the Presidio 1895-1995) in my living room.

I believe the golf course at the Mather air base near Sacramento is another military golf course that has opened to public in the past 10-15 years.

DT

Pat Burke

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2010, 08:23:05 PM »
The Retreat in Corona, CA   
A Nicklaus design (Jr I think?) that was a typical housing development bubble development
that was not finished before the housing and golf markets went in the tank.
Now public, and struggling to get enough play.  Not much of a course, and has now lost
the "at least it's always in great condition" reputation.
Pretty much a poster child for the struggles for golf in socal

PCCraig

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2010, 09:29:07 PM »
Ravisloe is doing OK, not great, as a private club. The times I've been out there it's been very quiet. However the course has always been in great shape. The only thing that's saving it from becoming a condo centre is the bad economy.
H.P.S.

John Keenan

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2010, 09:00:50 AM »
Philip

Not to go OT but do you have any idea where in the Ingleside  SFGC build their course. I am aware of a race track in the Ingleside that can still be somewhat found but was not aware that SFGC build a course there.

Thanks for the background

John

 
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Phil_the_Author

Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2010, 11:57:23 AM »
John,

Yes, I do. I had the privilege of spending a good deal of time in SF this summer to research and produce an exhaustive course evolution history for the club. That report is private and solely for the club, but there is a great deal of information that was uncovered that is in the public purview. This information is/was to be part of a Tillinghast Illustrated overview of the evolution of the present day course. Due to some technical difficulties it has been delayed since September, but hopefully we'll be able to put it up soon.

To answer your question, below are images copied from two different maps of SF. The first one show the location of the clubhouse across the street from where the golf course is but isn't shown on the map. This is from 1911 and is the "Old Ingleside" course. You can plainly see the race track as well:



This second one is taken from a 1915 map. It shows the entire routing of this same course. Interesting is the growth around the clubhouse with numerous streets now having been added:



You'll have to wait a bit longer for more info when the article comes out!  ;D

John Keenan

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2010, 12:24:11 PM »
Philip

That is fascinating. I know that area and can't remember anything that would show that a golf course had ever been there as well as a club house.

I cannot wait to see more.

Side note they built the final SFGC actually not too far away for the Ingleside location.

John
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

David_Tepper

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2010, 12:37:03 PM »
John -

The Ingleside District of San Francisco was an agricultural area into the 20th century. It was popular with flower growers.

DT

Phil_the_Author

Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2010, 12:38:44 PM »
John,

Wait till you see where they ALMOST moved the golf course to and why they DIDN'T!

John Keenan

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2010, 12:45:58 PM »
Is there anything left from the Ingleside course?

Can't wait to see where they were looking at moving it to.

The final location is the Trifecta of courses with Olympic, Lake Merced and SFGC.  On the muni front we can add in Harding .  I guess that makes it a Quadfectria :D

David

Yes that was a agricultural area and I suspect consider quite far out from the Downtown at the turn of the century. Alemany Blvd area had a lot of Italian growers.  I had realtives out there I am told.

John
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Karl Bernetich

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2010, 01:08:05 PM »
For the Delaware course, are you thinking about Deerfield ?  Started as one of the Dupont CC courses (Louvieres -sp?) - Private;
then went to MBNA owned Deerfield - Private;
then to DE State owned (Muni) Public.

Joe Bausch

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2010, 01:44:37 PM »
For the Delaware course, are you thinking about Deerfield ?  Started as one of the Dupont CC courses (Louvieres -sp?) - Private;
then went to MBNA owned Deerfield - Private;
then to DE State owned (Muni) Public.

And IMO, Deerfield is one fun little layout that many on here would enjoy.  With the struggling economy, Deerfield has been forced to be more competitive with their pricing and via GolfNow I played there earlier this year for less than 30 bucks.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 02:16:02 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Dave Givnish

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2011, 02:15:00 PM »
Quintero in Peoria AZ has for all intents and purposes become public.  There is still a private membership element but the public can get on through Troon Golf.

The alternative question - which courses have gone from public to private - if there are any - would also be a good topic.

Rob_Waldron

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2011, 09:03:30 AM »
Steve

I believe you were thinking of Blue Mountain CC in Harrisburg which is now Felicita Resort.

Brad Tufts

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2011, 10:42:15 AM »
I believe I read someplace that Augusta CC in Maine has been accepting some public play if you call ahead.  Not sure if that does not apply on weekends or what...

They are definately staying private though, just looking for a few extra bucks at off-times...
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Greg Clark

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Re: From Private to Public...
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2011, 04:19:59 PM »
My in-laws have had a place at Sun City Vistoso in the Tucson area for several years.  The course there, now named The Views I think (awful name), went from private to public in the last two or three years.  It is a decent Greg Nash course that I believe Billy Casper lent his name to.  Several Arizona mentions on this thread so far.

On the other side of the ledger, here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area Lantana Golf Club, a Jay and Carter Morrish course, went from public to private almost exactly two years ago.  That has to be a rarity in the current climate.

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