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Jud_T

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Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« on: January 03, 2011, 12:40:19 PM »
My Top Championship Tracks Where I'd Send a Low Capper Itching for a Test

1.  Royal County Down- Have to get back out there and give it another go after my poor showing the first time.  Beauty with brains.  Some real pucker shots when the wind is up...

2. Winged Foot West- Fabulous set of greens although they weren't in the best shape when I was there (I believe the Super has since been replaced). A great course, a great test from tee to green. And oh yeah, you get the little brother course as well...

3.  Carnoustie- Surprisingly playable for such a bear IMHO.  Love the bunkering.  Check out the Overseas Membership price!

4.  Yale- Played it once in the mid 90's.  Need to get back out there as conditioning has apparently improved.

5. Chicago Golf Club-  A surprisingly strong test from the tips (6900 par 70?).  And about as old school as it gets on this side of the pond.

6. Riviera- Great track with some classic holes.  The kikuya rough would drive me nuts eventually, but simply the best golf I've seen on the west coast south of Oregon..

7.  Pebble Beach-  Beauty and Brawn.  Perhaps slightly overrated due to a few pedestrian holes (#12?), but a classic nevertheless.

8. Olympia Fields North-A great venue that's more enjoyable for mortals than most of the other brutish Chicago Championship venues. Also a really nice routing over some surprisingly good ground for Illinois.

9.  Bethpage Black-  Played an outing there right after the first Open with perhaps the worst hangover of my life in 95 degree heat.  That's probably the feeling you'd get sober from the tips.

10.  Medinah #3- Yes it's been basterdized several times by the open doctors, gets a lot of play and isn't always in tip top condition by private club standards, but if you can shoot par here from virtually any tee you've accomplished something.

11.  European Club-  Tough links golf on Steroids.  

12.  Butler National-  Personally I don't get the Serious Men's Club concept, but I guess Seious track = serious club.  My favorite Butler story comes from a friend of mine who was escorting Rich Beem around the course from the old back tees.  The Beemer was striping it that day, nonchalantly making everything he looked at.  On 18 he was rushing excitedly as he spotted Michael Jordan nearby whence my friend reminded him to take his time as he was putting for the course record.  He drained it for a 62.  While that may no longer be the course record as they've lengthened the course yet again, anyone who's ever played Butler realizes just how good a round of golf that was on this beast.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 02:12:42 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

George Pazin

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 12:43:39 PM »
Now rank those 11 by fun... :)

[As an aside, it might be worth mentioning other big name tourney courses you have or haven't played (Oakmont, Kiawah, TPC Sawgrass, etc), just to put the list in perspective.]

11.  Butler National-  Personally I don't get the Serious Men's Club concept, but I guess Seious track = serious club.  My favorite Butler story comes from a friend of mine who was escorting Rich Beem around the course from the old back tees.  The Beemer was striping it that day, nonchalantly making everything he looked at.  On 18 he was rushing excitedly as he spotted Michael Jordan nearby whence my friend reminded him to take his time as he was putting for the course record.  He drained it for a 62.  While that may no longer be the course record as they've lengthened the course yet again, anyone who's ever played Butler realizes just how good a round of golf that was on this beast.

Sounds like the type of course that is tough for mere mortals but easy for the big boys. Imho, these types of courses are usually long, soft and have relatively mundane greens. But I say that having no idea what BN is like. Perhaps Shiv can share. Or you can.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 12:47:07 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jud_T

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2011, 12:57:27 PM »
George,

I don't think the phrases "easy" and "Butler National" are ever uttered in the same sentence by anyone.  That's how good of a round that was...


As for other Championship tracks, there probably aren't many except courses that had an event before any of us were born....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2011, 01:02:07 PM »
Now rank those 11 by fun... :)

[As an aside, it might be worth mentioning other big name tourney courses you have or haven't played (Oakmont, Kiawah, TPC Sawgrass, etc), just to put the list in perspective.]

11.  Butler National-  Personally I don't get the Serious Men's Club concept, but I guess Seious track = serious club.  My favorite Butler story comes from a friend of mine who was escorting Rich Beem around the course from the old back tees.  The Beemer was striping it that day, nonchalantly making everything he looked at.  On 18 he was rushing excitedly as he spotted Michael Jordan nearby whence my friend reminded him to take his time as he was putting for the course record.  He drained it for a 62.  While that may no longer be the course record as they've lengthened the course yet again, anyone who's ever played Butler realizes just how good a round of golf that was on this beast.

Sounds like the type of course that is tough for mere mortals but easy for the big boys. Imho, these types of courses are usually long, soft and have relatively mundane greens. But I say that having no idea what BN is like. Perhaps Shiv can share. Or you can.

George,

Your new series will get plenty of play without such comments about courses you have no clue.  Butler is not unusually long, or soft or mundane of green.  It is easy for no man, mortal or not.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2011, 01:15:53 PM »
George,

I don't think the phrases "easy" and "Butler National" are ever uttered in the same sentence by anyone.  That's how good of a round that was...


As for other Championship tracks, there probably aren't many except courses that had an event before any of us were born....

I played Butler and Medinah on back-to-back days this summer when I was hitting it sideways, and got beaten up.  I actually thought Medinah played tougher for me, given how I was hitting it, although I think Butler would be slightly more difficult on a good ball-striking day.

George Pazin

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2011, 01:21:39 PM »
George,

Your new series will get plenty of play without such comments about courses you have no clue.  Butler is not unusually long, or soft or mundane of green.  It is easy for no man, mortal or not.

A fair comment. All I was looking for was some comments about the course, which is why I asked Shiv and Jud for comments. Perhaps you could expand on yours and explain why it is so challenging.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2011, 01:26:49 PM »
a fair list...as always, what courses might not have made the list?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JR Potts

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2011, 01:40:55 PM »
I do question how a high-handicapper can make this list with any reliability but I don't have many qualms about it....other than the fact that Chicago Golf doesn't deserve to be on this list, Riviera is ranked way too high and Olmpia Fields North and Whistling Straits (if we're looking for some more midwest flavor) needs to be on this list.  But I guess this is just Jud's subjective list....so okay.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 02:00:29 PM by Ryan Potts »

JR Potts

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2011, 02:05:41 PM »
George,

Your new series will get plenty of play without such comments about courses you have no clue.  Butler is not unusually long, or soft or mundane of green.  It is easy for no man, mortal or not.

A fair comment. All I was looking for was some comments about the course, which is why I asked Shiv and Jud for comments. Perhaps you could expand on yours and explain why it is so challenging.

I find it to be the most difficult course I have ever played.  I don't know if it has me snakebitten but I (and others) seem to find ways to make an 8 or 9 evey time I play it.  The other courses above, you can hit it awry, take your medicine, and make bogey.  At Butler, 8s and 9s just come out of nowhere.  

There is a lot of water on the course and the angles of the greens, coupled with the speed, make approach shots incredibly difficult to get close to the hole.  The fairway bunkers a brutal and despite what others say, it's a long course from the back tees.  It's the only course I've played where they could shut down on a Sunday night and host a US Open the next week.

Simply said, it's the type of golf course where one really bad swing can totally and completely ruin your round as bad shots seem to snowball into huge numbers in a hurry.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 02:07:36 PM by Ryan Potts »

Jud_T

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2011, 02:14:22 PM »
I do question how a high-handicapper can make this list with any reliability but I don't have many qualms about it....other than the fact that Chicago Golf doesn't deserve to be on this list, Riviera is ranked way too high and Olmpia Fields North and Whistling Straits (if we're looking for some more midwest flavor) needs to be on this list.  But I guess this is just Jud's subjective list....so okay.

Ryan- You're correct- OFields North was an oversight, corrected above.  Whistling Straights not so much.  I know guys like you think it's a great test from the tips, but IMHO to mention it in the same breath as places like Winged Foot and Carnoustie is silly.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 02:17:54 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JR Potts

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2011, 02:16:53 PM »
I've never played 1-4 and 11 so you may be right.

I think Pine Valley from the tips (really from anywhere) should be listed as well but I assume you haven't played it YET.

Jud_T

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2011, 02:17:13 PM »
a fair list...as always, what courses might not have made the list?

Ron, in addition to WS, Cog Hill #4 didn't make it, although it probably would have prior to the recent renovation.  Maybe a sterner test now but too much similarity in the new greens.  Also Rich Harvest didn't make it, but the only list that should be on IMO is Most Overrated Golf Courses in the USA...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jud_T

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2011, 02:19:24 PM »
I've never played 1-4 and 11 so you may be right.

I think Pine Valley from the tips (really from anywhere) should be listed as well but I assume you haven't played it YET.

Haven't been out to PV yet, but that may be changing in the not-too distant future.  ::)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JR Potts

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2011, 02:23:48 PM »
BTW - Love the "get the poison out"....Little Lupe....priceless.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 02:49:39 PM »
Gotta question the presence of Chicago Golf Club on this list.  A low handicapper would only have trouble with that golf course if he was putting horribly and the greens were Stimped around 15.  That's not to say it isn't a good golf course.  And it is not to say that it isn't interesting, or demanding for that matter, but resistance to par is not something that applies to CGC.

As for Butler/Medinah, they are both extremely tough for good players.  Medinah is a brutal slog of a golf course from the back tees, with a lot of 480 yard par 4's uphill with narrow fairways and severely tilted greens, not to mention a very difficult collection of par 3 holes over water.  Butler presents some similar challenges, but it has the added feature of the difficulty of getting the ball onto its greens that Medinah doesn't generally have.   At Medinah, generally speaking, the greens are right in front of the player, with not much of an angle created by the orientation of the green to the fairway.  At Butler, the angle of attack to virtually every green is extremely shallow, with big difficulty around more than one side of the green (i.e. a creek or some woods or a pond).  Both courses are long and both courses can present some problems with respect to the ability of the player to hit the fairway, but access to the putting surface at Butler is as difficult as any golf course I've ever played.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2011, 03:07:15 PM »
Terry,

Point taken.  On my side of the argument is they did host the Walker Cup recently and it is a great track.  On your side they did go to town.  I stood next to J.B. Holmes and watched him do things no ordinary human should be able to do with a golf club...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

George Pazin

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2011, 03:08:35 PM »
... At Butler, the angle of attack to virtually every green is extremely shallow, with big difficulty around more than one side of the green (i.e. a creek or some woods or a pond).  Both courses are long and both courses can present some problems with respect to the ability of the player to hit the fairway, but access to the putting surface at Butler is as difficult as any golf course I've ever played.

Thanks for this, Terry, it paints a vivid picture.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2011, 07:35:10 PM »
Jud I don't think Carnoustie Golf Club membership comes with any playing rights.
Cave Nil Vino

Jud_T

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2011, 08:06:03 PM »
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 08:11:08 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2011, 02:14:03 PM »
Jud - it's not uncommon for several clubs to play over the same course in Scotland. Where the course is public the golfer pays a fee to the council for a permit to play and a subscription to the club for use of the clubhouse, handicapping, etc. In this case it appears you can call yourself a member of Carnoustie Golf Club but each round will cost you £120+.
Cave Nil Vino

Tim Leahy

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2011, 02:29:20 PM »
What about Olympic Club?
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Jud_T

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2011, 02:41:02 PM »
Tim,

Haven't played it.  This is my view of the best of what I've seen...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Weekly Series-Poster Threads-Jud Tigerman List 2
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2011, 02:47:34 PM »
Carnoustie Golf Club plays competitions on the Carnoustie Golf Links.  Being a member of the Golf Club allows you to play in the competitions and be part of the camaraderie  on the club. 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi