Alister MacKenzie Quote

[Jaeger Kovich]

"Everyone knows how fatal the imagination is in playing the game." The Spirit of St. Andrews p. 14

Yes, I took it out of context, but come on... Did perhaps the most highly regarded architect of all time really just say imagination is fatal?!

Anyone out there who has played Ballyneal or the Dr's beloved St. Andrews and can tell me they haven't relied on imagination to play those courses that everybody here loves, you are either lying or the most boring golfer of all time!

Does anyone else disagree with A. MacKenzie?

.. here is a more in context version, a little better, but not much!

"In any case the possession of a vivid imagination, which is an absolute essential in obtaining success (as an architect), may prevent him attaining a position among the higher ranks of players. Everyone knows how fatal the imagination is in playing the game. Let the fear of socketing (shanking) once enter your head and you promptly socket every shot afterwards." The Spirit of St. Andrews p. 14

[Peter Pallotta]

Jaeger - I think he's right.  I'm a huge fan of Jack Nicklaus, but I think one of the reasons he won 18 majors was that he had a complete lack of imagination.  Weiskopf, on the other hand, had too much - mostly of the negative kind.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Jaeger:

You are confusing "imagination" with "creativity".  They are not the same thing.

MacKenzie was using "imagination" in the negative sense; and he is right that most not-so-great golfers (himself included) are handicapped by negative thinking of what might go wrong with their next shot.  He is also right that the guys who are above this, are probably not so creative by nature.

Imagination helps at St. Andrews (and at Ballyneal), but it also calls for someone to get outside their comfort zone, which can be disruptive to the best players.  Indeed, that's why many of those great players tend not to like that style of golf course.

[JESII]

Tom,

I thought this was teed up for you to simply agree that this is why you reportedly don't know what a real golf shot is (or whatever the common knock is)...it's that you have too much imagination.

I don't know, maybe just my dimented imagination...

[JESII]

Jaeger,

Don't you think a big part of the architects job should be to entice the player to use their imagination...or at least flirt with the edges. How can you make me feel like I may well lose a stroke if I don't dream up an alternative way of getting there?

[Carl Rogers]

I have tried to help some very smart people get started in the game.  With a couple of them, I tried to get them to dumb themselves a bit, so there conceptualizing could be more in sink with their ability to execute.

I try to do that myself.  I am a very boring golfer.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim,

To that last point, I remember that one of the things we kept doing at Sebonack which Jack Nicklaus did not like, was mowing the greens off the back down a slope, so that there was nothing "holding up" a shot from going through the back.  You would think that a player like Jack who could stop a one-iron on the green would be less concerned with that than anyone else, but he was very concerned about it ... it made him uncomfortable with attacking a back hole location when he could not tell what trouble lurked beyond.  

He was very perplexed when I told him that's why I was doing it.

[JESII]

Bingo, thanks.

[Jim Nugent]

Tom, I wonder if Jack's rather average short game had anything to do with that.  Also wonder if Tiger, with his other-worldly short game, might feel differently. 

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

Some of the recoveries from behind the greens at Sebonack are very difficult, even for Tiger.  But I think Jack was reacting more to how things looked on first glance, and I think it's generally true that until the players get to know the course by playing a couple of practice rounds, they tend to shy away from danger they can't see. 

The players were very cautious about attacking the flag at Cape Kidnappers the first year of the Kiwi Challenge, until they got to the last few holes and they were just sprinting home for the $$$.

[Jason Topp]

I read that passage recently and saw it primarily as marketing - Mackenzie wanted to convince the reader that he should be hired to design courses even though he was not a great player. 

Incidentally - I hate it when golf announcers talk about shots requiring "imagination."  It does not take imagination to know that a shot needs to get over a bunker, hit a lowspot then roll over a ridge towards a hole.  It takes observation and the skill to hit the shot.  I consider that ability to be the opposite of imagination.

[JESII]

Jason,

What would require imagination on a golf course?

[JMEvensky]

Jason,

What would require imagination on a golf course?

The way some people add?

[Ross Tuddenham]

Is he not talking about the execution of the swing rather than seeing the shots available to a player?  An early observation of the paralysis by analysis phenomenon.

[JESII]

Ross,

Maybe, but the shot he described certainly seems to have a few options...even if the play he described is clearly THE choice.

I'm not sure how "observation" can be anything like the opposite of imagination. I would have called it the foundation.

[David_Tepper]

I remember reading a passage in an old golf instructional book where the author states that being too bright can be an impediment to being a good golfer. I wish I could remember who the author was and cite the passage verbatim.

[Tom_Doak]

David,

Nothing more popular to tell your worst pupils than that they are probably just too smart to be good at the game. 

But, it can be true in some sense.  I remember one of the first times I spent a lot of time with Ben Crenshaw, he reminisced about coming out on Tour with everybody saying that he was "the next Nicklaus" and thinking at the time how ridiculous that was ... he said he knew he didn't have the same talent or the same experience.  And I knew right away that was one of the things that had held him back, his respect for fellow competitors.  In fact I thought the same factor would be the kiss of death for all young players who had that put upon them until I saw Tiger and how sure he was that he could beat ANYBODY, the day he turned pro.  Confidence counts for so much, and sometimes, confidence is blind.     

[David_Tepper]

Tom -

This is not the passage I was thinking of, but in The Golfing Mind, by Vivien Saunders, she writes "In many instances the relatively unthinking golfer may have certain advantages over his more intellectual counterpart."

Some times ignorance is indeed bliss.

DT 

[Peter Pallotta]

"And I knew right away that was one of the things that had held him back, his respect for fellow competitors."

Tom - I think another way to put that (or at least, the way I would put it) is that he had "an awareness of Other", i.e he recognized that other people and things (like golf courses) exist and are valuable independent of himself or their utility to him.  I think that's one of the main and early pre-requisites to having and developing "imagination" -- the true kind, worthy of the name -- and this imagination, as Dr. Mackenzie notes, is a great trait in an architect but not so great for a top-flight competitive golfer.   

Peter

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jim - "Don't you think a big part of the architects job should be to entice the player to use their imagination..."

That was exactly my initial thought. The whole idea of the strategic school and finding the right route for you was immediately where my mind went.

I also considered he could be talking about the ability to create shots... imagination!... which is where so much of the true beauty of the game lies, making a different swing for every different lie, doing whatever it takes to get the ball closer to the hole.

After reading on the next 20+ pages or so he alludes to one match he played where he basically played tennis, shanking the ball back and forth over the green to lose the match, I'm pretty sure he was just supper bitter forever, and this is how he dealt with it when people expected him to be a scratch golfer!

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jaeger:

Imagination helps at St. Andrews (and at Ballyneal), but it also calls for someone to get outside their comfort zone, which can be disruptive to the best players.  Indeed, that's why many of those great players tend not to like that style of golf course.

As far as Imagination v Creativity, I'm not sure I'm smart enough to figure out which is the one I used to develop my split hand 3-wood that resembles a hockey wrist shot at Ballyneal over the summer, but it sure made it a more interesting way to play the hole.

In the quote, MacKenzie uses the words EVERYONE KNOWS, so I never even really considered the best players opinions, I considered the everyMAN.
 
How many times in your career, or since leaving Mr. Dye, have you really had to consider or build around the opinions for the best players in the world (Sebonack is iffy, but we can count it!)? Would you not say you like to see players of any caliber using imagination / creativity or even design to allow players to use their imagination /  creativity as much as possible?

Maybe its just the fact that I haven't trimmed my beard in 3 weeks, but I just find it irresponsible as a liberal arts architecture grad, and as Keyshawn and Chris Carter say on the Sunday countdown show, Imagination is fatal, Come'on Man! How do you honestly print that in your architecture theory book!

[Colin Macqueen]

happy New year to one and all.
Jason,

I don't think of imagination as much as visualization and probably having to be creative in pulling off the shot.

Cheers colin

[Brett_Morrissy]

Hi Jaeger,

I was reading the same passage the other day, it certainly made me stop and think about it, but I immediately assumed he was referencing an elite player(s) (as everyone knows to be the best of the best, ...), the best way to navigate around the architects golf course to post a good score (emphasis), is to quiet your imagination, robotic, think of the top echelon of Pros - they seem to have had drummed into them, metronome swings, hit it down the middle, hit the middle of the green, make the putt, it is all about technique BUT they really don't look like they are having fun - and to me, that is where the creative part comes in. So I thought the good Dr was being blunt, which seems his style, direct and to the point.

*I have Dr Mac Quote number 2 ready for when this post runs out of puff.

[JESII]

"Everyone knows how fatal the imagination is in playing the game." The Spirit of St. Andrews p. 14

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"In any case the possession of a vivid imagination, which is an absolute essential in obtaining success (as an architect), may prevent him attaining a position among the higher ranks of players. Everyone knows how fatal the imagination is in playing the game. Let the fear of socketing (shanking) once enter your head and you promptly socket every shot afterwards." The Spirit of St. Andrews p. 14

Could it be as simple as the reality that on any shot, for any golfer, the areas you don't want to end up outnumber the area you do by several multiples usually?

In other words, even a basic pitching wedge from the fairway carries expectations and an active mind will always consider the alternatives to that goal...which in golf, are a disappointment.

[Jaeger Kovich]

*I have Dr Mac Quote number 2 ready for when this post runs out of puff.

I like where you heads at! I didn't get more than 25 more pages without underlining 2 more quotes for either gca or my blog! He certainly is thought provoking!

Its clear he is talking about the machines we watch on the pga tour every week, the power of repetition and what can happen to a golfer once he loses his confidence. But I agree with you, they dont look like they are having fun, or at least as much fun as possible. Sunday was the last week of the NFL season here in the US, it reminded me of the difference between professional athletes and the rest of us. Once it becomes both business and pleasure, the money is the fun.