[Carl Rogers]

At the end of January of 06,  I spent 3 1/2 days there with Tom D, Brian Schneider, Brian Slawnik & Chad Grave as the prize for winning Golf Magazines Armchair Architect back in the previous fall.  I just tagged along and asked an occaissional question.  What I saw mostly was the front nine that got completely re-arranged over time to what it is today.

I hope you keep going on this thread as I am most interested in what happened on holes 9 through 12 over the most challenging portion of the property.  Even as a hole that was only cleared, the 9th hole looked terriffic.

[Jud_T]

Carl,

I'll get all 18 up over the coming days.  I have a bunch of pictures to go through.

[Jud_T]

#3: Par 3, Blue-146, White-130, Red 101
Handicap 12

"A Short, yet feisty par 3.  Be short or be right where there is a large landing area not visible from the tee...anything but long gives you a chance at making par."

Tough club selection downwind, particularly if you are playing in more than the 1 club breeze that I found.  There's a lot of contour short of the green, and I can imagine a lot of guys walking off with a 4 or 5 and scratching their heads after such a seemingly easy hole...

From the back tee:


View from the whites:

[Jud_T]

A bit closer to the green, and a sense of some of the contour:



The bunker short/left.  Not really in play but adds to the visual intimidation of the (apparently) small target:



A sense of the contour over the bunker making it very difficult to get at this pin:



A view from the front of the green, giving a sense of the green slope back and left:



A view back to the 3rd green from the 4th tee and the bailout area they were referring to:

[Tom_Doak]

Jud:

I will be interested to follow this thread since I have not seen the course for two full years ... I haven't seen holes 13-17 with grass on them!  For that matter, none of my crew have been back there since the grass hit the ground on the last hole.  How did you like the paspalum for fairways and chipping areas?

P.S.  I don't know who wrote the playing tips, but it obviously wasn't me.


Carl:

The first three holes depicted are holes 1, 6 and 7 from the plan you knew.  The original 2-3-4-5 are back to desert ... at one time they were talking about digging out a harbor there, but cooler heads (and lack of money) prevailed.  The four holes we added to replace them are the new 5th through 8th holes, which go off to the right after the old 8th (now 4th) green.

[Greg Tallman]

At the end of January of 06,  I spent 3 1/2 days there with Tom D, Brian Schneider, Brian Slawnik & Chad Grave as the prize for winning Golf Magazines Armchair Architect back in the previous fall.  I just tagged along and asked an occaissional question.  What I saw mostly was the front nine that got completely re-arranged over time to what it is today.

I hope you keep going on this thread as I am most interested in what happened on holes 9 through 12 over the most challenging portion of the property.  Even as a hole that was only cleared, the 9th hole looked terriffic.

Carl,

Holes 9-12 ended up pretty good.

9 is a fun and tough uphill par 5, nothing forced as you climb the mountain.
10 is a rather mudane par three but but it serves as a nice connection between the tough 9th and the thrilling 11th

11 is a great short par 4. Potentially drivable but frought with peril from the hogback fairway to the green that runs away from the player. I was about 30 yards short and failed to hit the green that is wide open in front if that tells you anything... fun, fun, fun.

12 is anotherfun downhiller with the biggest drop occurring at about 310 or so allowing for a drive of upwards of 400 yards a real possbility but if not you have a nice diwnhill shot to the interesting green with plenty of movement.

[Greg Tallman]

Jud - The pics do not do accurately depict #3 which I thought was a wonderful little par 3. The hole has much more character than the photos reveal.The green complex was hands down my favorite on the course.

Our new 7th and this hole, while in dramatically different settings, play somewhat similarly. Would you agree? (Even though it appears your tee shot at BDLS was not as fortunate as on our new 7th).

[Jud_T]

Jud:

I will be interested to follow this thread since I have not seen the course for two full years ... I haven't seen holes 13-17 with grass on them!  For that matter, none of my crew have been back there since the grass hit the ground on the last hole.  How did you like the paspalum for fairways and chipping areas?

Tom,

I like the grass fine for both fairway and chipping areas, as long as a ground game option is available.  It's a tough surface to have to hit a flop shot off of, but thankfully that was never the case.  I also like the fact that there's no rough and errant shots can run off into bunkers or the desert on some holes.  The paspalum I've seen at other courses that's grown as rough I don't care for so much...

One question, where was the local watering hole for the gang?

[Jud_T]

Jud - The pics do not do accurately depict #3 which I thought was a wonderful little par 3. The whole has much more character than the photos reveal.The green complex was hands down my favorite on the course.

Our new 7th and this hole, while in dramatically different settings, play somewhat similarly. Would you agree? (Even though it appears your tee shot at BDLS was not as fortunate as on our new 7th).

Greg-

Interesting question.  Certainly there's a lot more to the hole than what appears in the photos.  Well, there was a lot more wind out on the beach at CDS #7.  I guess I'd say that, while they're both very good short par 3's that you're more likely to have a wider range of scores at CDS both high and low than here, but there's no gimme pars on this hole.  I'd love to go back and play it in a 2-3 club wind.  I underclubbed and came up short, which is the tendency I think for those who don't know the course.  This leaves a very difficult up and down from either the bunker or short of the green, at least to this pin location.

[George Pazin]

Thanks for sharing, looking forward to the rest. Please send me the Salsa recipe!

[Jud_T]

Hole #4:

Par 4, Blue-377, White-341, Red-309
Handicap 14

"Aim between the two bunkers for shorter hitters and take it over the bunker on the right side for those a little more daring and who want to have a wedge in.  Long is dead, but there is plenty of room in front of this green if you don't feel like being aggressive."

From the tee:


Zoomed in:


Right Fairway bunker:


Left Fairway Bunker:


View from the fairway.  One of the more interesting driving holes:


Approach zoomed in:

[Jud_T]

Better look at the depression short of the green:


Front-Right of green:


Right side of green:


Tom's famous lob wedge over the cactus in the bunker shot...


Back Right of Green:


Behind Green:

[Jud_T]

Not clear to me that playing over the right bunker really gives you much of an advantage to this pin...

[Tom_Doak]

Jud,

When I first commented on the cactus in the bunker the other day, I didn't recognize what course it was ... I only noticed it after your reply.  But, I was happy to find out I was not a hypocrite on that front, anyway.

And no, playing over the right fairway bunker is no particular advantage on #4, other than you get a much wider fairway to aim at if you can carry it that far.  In fact, it is more of a sucker play where the big hitters may not notice they should still go left.

[Jud_T]

Hole #5: Par 4- Blue 401, White-350, Red-293
Handicap #16

"Aim for the bunker in the center of the fairway with the long ball and be left with a mid to short iron in.  This green is very flat and has a false edge on the front.  Be aggressive and go long if you need to, as it leaves you with a simple bump and run."

View from the tee:


From the tee zoomed in a bit:


View from the fairway:


Looking back at the tee from the fairway:


Right fairway bunker (you can tell by now that I simply like the look of these things):


From behind left fairway bunker:

[Jud_T]

Fairway bunker short of green:


From right front of green:


Right rear of green:


Left rear of green.  Few of us can consciously overclub to be long as it's so seldom the best option:


Then of course one ends up here:


False front of green.  Steeper than it appears here:

[Tom_Doak]

The green is not really flat, as I recall.  It is very small and tilts pretty hard from front left to back right.  It just doesn't have any noticeable internal contours.

This was the first of four holes we had to tack into the routing when the financial backing for the project (and the land planning) changed after we had already started construction.  It's the one hole I was very sheepish about building, because if you can't tell from the pictures, we had to plow right through a veritable forest of cardones (big Saguaro cacti) in order to make a hole here.  Most of them were transplanted to the entrance road corridor.

[Phil McDade]

It's the one hole I was very sheepish about building, because if you can't tell from the pictures, we had to plow right through a veritable forest of cardones (big Saguaro cacti) in order to make a hole here.  Most of them were transplanted to the entrance road corridor.

I kind of wondered that -- it looks from some of Jud's pictures that this is tighter than the previous holes, with the cacti right up next to the playing corridors.

I have to say, this is one of the few desert courses I've seen that looks to have some interest. I really like the green surrounds.

[Jud_T]

Hole #6- Par 5, Blue-522, White-482, Red-413
Handicap 8

"This uphill par five is easy off the tee.  Aim for the lone cardon cactus at the top of the hill.  Another wood or long iron anywhere but the bunkers will leave you with a short shot to this long but narrow green.  Your Scottish bump and run skills may come into play here."

View from the tips:


from the whites zoomed in:


from the fairway:


fairway zoomed in:

[Jud_T]

fairway bunkering short of green:


approach from right side. hit what i thought was a perfect approach and ended up rolling down the big swale to the right:


same shot zoomed in with a better view of the falloff:


a sense of the elevation of the hole:


looking back down the fairway from the green:

[Sean Leary]

Desert Courses always look tighter than they are....

[Jud_T]

front right of green:


back left of green:

[Jud_T]

Desert Courses always look tighter than they are....

Sean,

As opposed to some of the courses I played in Arizona, I didn't find that to be the case here.  I'm guessing the restrictions on irrigated turf area aren't quite as strict in Mexico.

[Tom_Doak]

Jud:

Actually, from what I've seen around Phoenix, I don't think many of the newer courses there push the envelope of the 90 acre limit on turf ... I think most of them are down around 75 acres, saving a lot of turf for a huge practice facility and maybe for grass around the clubhouse!  But, you are right, there is no such rule in Mexico that I'm aware of, and we tend to build our courses wider than most people.  I am not sure of the total irrigated area at Bahia de los Suenos, I never heard a final number from them.

That approach to #6 is tough because it's uphill even more than it looks ... without bunkers next to the green, it's difficult to judge.  We thought about having some mowed rough up close to the green so a shot that just missed wouldn't come way back down the hill, but were not sure what the paspalum would play like at that height, so they are still mowing it all short for now.  Someday I hope to get back and do some fine-tuning like that.

[Jud_T]

Tom,

It's fine as it is IMHO.  One just needs to learn to take an extra club there.  I don't really care for the Paspalum as rough.  I'd rather have a longer bump and run shot from down the hill than a hack and hope situation from greenside.

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