[Jonathan Cummings]

Mr Huntley - there's a rater friend of mine who lives in PA.  He's 45, retired and a billionaire.  I'll make sure he knows you think he rates for access.

Jim - you're probably lurking anyway....for your amusement...

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Hmm I also think there are different strokes for different folks as Bob pointed out one thing. These are things I would try to do. I like to play with a staff member or club historian etc. If not then ask the Director of Golf questions about the course such as types of grasses, drainage,, original architect, changes, when and who did them, things about the course routing, holes, interesting shots that exist and other historical facts of interest. I like see course in a cart so I can look at different shot angles and tees which might be missed walking the course. also make sure to look at each hole backwards to get impressions that for me would only come from playing a course many times. Obvious;y as Mike pointed out, an appreciative humble attitude with good manners and making a point to understand local rules and policies are important.

[john_stiles]

It  would help most private clubs (my opinion) if the raters all paid the    'members guest' rate.   Public or semi public or resorts would not even be asked for free play.   Each rating service would let their policy be known through the national publication.  Setting a 'minimum'  bar  would relieve much of the issues.   Courses could still charge whatever higher rate they wanted.    As always,   a private course could elect to not allow play by a rater (as some presently do).    Setting a minimum bar would help.  It might also help the raters.

Of course,  many courses ask for rater play but it should be known just to charge the member's guest rate as a minimum or the public fee.  That the new courses or remote courses ask for rater play is part of the problem.  

But still if everyone charges the rate set by the magazine,  it would help.

Every year someone asks what do you think about 'to charge' or not.  

If some clubs charge some raters, and then not charge others, that can create 'odd' situations later when that is realized.

[Joel_Stewart]

Do not report bad raters to the editors.  I have seen this many times and all it does is hurt your club. The only raters ever punished are those ratted out by other raters.

I don't agree with this, at all.  I believe a magazine will take much more serious a violation of ethics then another rater whinning about another.

If a club calls and said, X rater just came out and wanted a free shirt, free food and brought 6 of his buddies and they drank, that person is probably off the panel.

If another panelist called and said, x rater doesn't like Sand Hills, then the magazine doesn't care.

So I guess it depends on the violation, but if a club called reporting a panelist, a head is going to roll.

[john_stiles]

I would be shocked if someone reported by the club, because of inappropriate behavior, was not dismissed.  It would depend on the violation to an extent, but I would think anything reported by a club would create a big problem for the rater.   

[John Kavanaugh]

Joel,

Chris is just a member who has volunteered his time to help out his club with a service to take some pressure off of the staff.  Asking him to tattle is a bit much.  I don't know about Digest but now that Golfweek charges people to be raters they have lowered their standards to a point where anything goes.  At a recent rater camp two raters were caught urinating off the porch of the clubhouse.  If that is not enough to be dismissed on the spot, what is?

Golfweek needs to start over with a model similar to the Outpost Club and charge $2000/year.  We already know of a rater in PA who can afford it.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I would be shocked if someone reported by the club, because of inappropriate behavior, was not dismissed.  It would depend on the violation to an extent, but I would think anything reported by a club would create a big problem for the rater.   

John,

I was playing at a club when they informed me about a rater who was kicked off the panel after they reported his access whoring. Little did they know he was only put on double secret probation.  It is a waste of time to complain. 

[JR Potts]

The only hope Chris has is that the rater played Canyata in the morning and has time for dinner at St Elmo's before doing the Victoria/Valhalla circuit the next day.
 

Who the hell can even get on Canyata?  I know a lot of people in this state and I don't know one non-rater who has even played it.

You know me.  I live in Illinois and played Canyata two years ago.  Left my pants in the back of a raters van.  But it was free after all.

Damn, it really does pay to know a rater.

While I don't have the hard-on that John does regarding raters (I don't consider them), I would hope the club just operates as normal.  Absent a few (Whitten, Klein, GolfMag's professional staff), they're not deserving of any extra attention that you do not provide your members in my opinion.  Afterall, the members keep the place afloat, not the raters.

I would treat them like a member for a day.  Pick up their golf and tell them to pay their caddy.

Just my personal opinion of course.

[John Kavanaugh]

Whitten, Klein and professional staff are not raters.  They are Whitten, Klein and professional staff.

[JR Potts]

Oh.  

But the rest of my point stands.

Now back to Canyata - how was it?

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Raters provide a gateway for additional visibility which for the lesser clubs is a path to stardom if so chosen. One other thing -- those clubs that do provide comps a good number of them limit the # of raters who can visit -- if I recall correctly that top figure would be no more than 20 as I believe that's the minimum Digest sets.

Chris:

I have seen some clubs prepare information packets for raters and other interested parties -- it's amazing of the ignorance of a number of raters. A fair percentage are simply interested in playing and scoring and some of your well-intentioned efforts may go by the wayside.

I find it better to hand a packet of info or direct to a Website -- otherwise it looks like an extended school session.

I think it's also helpful for raters to contact the club prior to visiting. Why? This allows the club and rater to avoid congested times and when playing the course is not advisable (aeration and other such issues).

I do agree with Jim Lewis -- I prefer to play alone if possible -- avoids the distractions and allows me to concentrate on what a course provides. Of course, such a desire cannot always be carried out.

Let me also weigh in regarding the issue of comped green fees. What many people don't ever state is that for a number of raters there are other costs such as traveling expenses which are picked up 100% by the rater. For some raters that distance can be quite significant.

[John Kavanaugh]

Oh.  

But the rest of my point stands.

Now back to Canyata - how was it?

After I got home from playing Canyata the first thing I did was ask my rater friend to mail me my pants.  It's only 30 miles from my house and the owner is an excellent customer.  A course that exclusive really can't be judged without knowing what goes on when the gates are closed. My visit with the raters was too sanitary for my tastes.  I can not form an unbiased opinion on this one.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jonathan,

I am delighted you know a billionaire and that he has no need for a freebie. However, I had the unfortunate experience of having three GCA raters at MPCC with the understanding that this was NOT a freebie. Two of the foursome signed in and charged the green fee back to their clubs. The third person waited until I left the shop and approached the Head Professional and mentioned he was a rater. What happenred thereafter I have no idea, however, I do know,  he will not be back.


Bob

[John Kavanaugh]

Matt,

I'm sure you know many raters seek out courses while on travel for work.  Whining about paying for travel is out of line.  Golf would be better off if those raters stayed home a joined a local course.  

Note:  Tomorrow I am going back to work and ending all this rater talk. I need to plan some travel.

[Matt_Ward]

John:

I don't doubt that some can do that -- but you seem to have amnesia and think that everyone doing the ratings is on the short list of $$ with Gates and Buffet.

The interesting thing about the "work argument" is that these folks tend to play the same metro area courses that are already seenm and rated by more than enough people.

John, no "whine" here but the reality of things.

[JR Potts]

Ryan:

Raters provide a gateway for additional visibility which for the lesser clubs is a path to stardom if so chosen. One other thing -- those clubs that do provide comps a good number of them limit the # of raters who can visit -- if I recall correctly that top figure would be no more than 20 as I believe that's the minimum Digest sets.

Matt - what lesser clubs have benefitted?  And why are we still rating 90 year old courses - what's the benefit there?  Given the lack of new courses and renovations, I thunk that 10 people can pick up the ratings for the next 5 years or so...do we really need legions of them access-whoring Yeaman Hall, Merion, etc.?  Where's that benefit?

[Brad Isaacs]

As a rater what do I appreciate?

I love a member who is knowledgable to play with. If not available, a caddy who knows the course, or an assistant pro.  To expect to be comped is above and beyond reasonable expectations. (it costs money to run the course and therefore you have a responsibility to support the hospitality you receive, coming from a guy who lives in Las Vegas) I do not agree with the false bravado comment. The golf business is tuff enough right now without handing out money.

I love any history or story of the course. I want to understand what the club/architect was trying to accomplish. I will often purchase the club history.

My golf is secondary to the evaluation of the course, (unfortunately my golf is secondary to golf)



You are a guest, you should act like one.

[John Kavanaugh]

Brad,

When do raters know their round at Shadow Creek will be free?  I just can't see a guy getting out of the limo and putting his credit card on the pro shp counter offering to pay.  I take it you are a Digest guy.  No way the Golfweek mafia could have kept a Vegas contact secret from me.

[Carl Nichols]

Jonathan,

I am delighted you know a billionaire and that he has no need for a freebie. However, I had the unfortunate experience of having three GCA raters at MPCC with the understanding that this was NOT a freebie. Two of the foursome signed in and charged the green fee back to their clubs. The third person waited until I left the shop and approached the Head Professional and mentioned he was a rater. What happenred thereafter I have no idea, however, I do know,  he will not be back.


Bob

It's amazing what some people will do to save a few bucks. 

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

A place like Black Mesa has benefited -- few would have ever thought a Santa Fe layout has the goods to be rated in the top echelon. The comments made by George Bahto about The Knoll here in Jersey are also spot on. Is The Knoll the equivalent of Oakmont. Certainly not. But the architecture there would interest those who want to play more than just the usual suspects. Let me also point out a place like The Knoll was rated among the top courses in the USA period from 40-50 years ago.

Ryan, I am not advocating the placement of courses that offer nothing of note. It's the approach taken by many raters -- the cherry-picking of just the same characters gets a little wanting in my book. Frankly, too many of these dinosaurs have stayed near the top because of outside events held there and because they are on the beaten path. Baltusrol Lower is a great case in point on that front in my mind.

In regards to the "legions" you mentioned -- I don't find the gallup / zagat poll approach helpful. It's truly meaningless generally and the aggregate formula is just the hodge-podge assortment of the same tried and true courses with few exceptions of note included for the most part.

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Just a further point to your kean observation.

Not really necessary to have a legion of people involved. All that does is water down the results and usually it means the same top heavy places benefit.

In today's info age it's hard for any real quality place to escape notice.

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