Caracas CC, Venezuela- the ultimate...

[Steve Okula]

Randy,

Cue, "Blues for Allah".

[Bill_McBride]

For the two months I have been reading the site I have not seen those claims you or others attributed to her in your above quote. With regard for President Obama I do not believe any of the statements you made above. With regard for Muslims, I do believe those practicing Islam would like to take over America and I do believe they want the destruction of Jews and Israel.

So the one billion Muslims in the world all have exactly the same goals in life? To destroy Israel and take over America?

 Have you ever met a single Muslim?

You honestly believe I meant all 1 billion?

Or just those practicing Islam? 

Is that directed at me Bill? What do you people want? Are you trying to paint me into a corner, make me out to be some sort of extremist so you can make yourselves appear righteous. What are your motives? Bill, do you really think I meant all however many million practicing Islamist? Are you people really that shallow trying to score points with this nonsensical rhetoric.

Sorry......we have met and I enjoyed it very much.  I just suspected you didn't really mean what you wrote yourself in your post a few above:

" With regard for Muslims, I do believe those practicing Islam would like to take over America and I do believe they want the destruction of Jews and Israel."

Did you mean those practicing Islam (which I take to mean the Muslim faith in general), some billion, or just those practicing radical, extremist Islam?  There is a huge difference.  I firmly believe that uppermost in the average Muslim's thoughts is living day to day and hoping for a better life for their kids - pretty much like the rest of mankind.

Not trying to paint you in a corner at all, just curious.

[Bill_McBride]

Sorry......we have met and I enjoyed it very much.  I just suspected you didn't really mean what you wrote yourself in your post a few above:

" With regard for Muslims, I do believe those practicing Islam would like to take over America and I do believe they want the destruction of Jews and Israel."

Did you mean those practicing Islam (which I take to mean the Muslim faith in general), some billion, or just those practicing radical, extremist Islam?  There is a huge difference.  I firmly believe that uppermost in the average Muslim's thoughts is living day to day and hoping for a better life for their kids - pretty much like the rest of mankind.

Not trying to paint you in a corner at all, just curious.

Bill,

I meant what I said, I think there is very little debate regarding the statement in general. You can read the stories in the NYT. A discussion group is not the place to get into the details of what constitutes average and radical. As you can see by what Randy, Steve and Craig have done to me they make inferences and assumptions to the extreme to make the other person look like some sort of bigot or racists because it makes them feel smart and better. I would be happy to talk face to face about it, but not on here with these vultures perched and waiting to tear you apart.

Understood, and thanks, Kelly. 

[Craig Sweet]

Kelly...I am just saying I think Pamela Geller is a bigot and a total loon. if you think she is "excellent".... fine....do I think you are a loon and a bigot for liking her writings....well, not exactly, but I do have to wonder. And when you make a comment about practicing Islams and violence...heck, I might be tempted to accuse practicing Christians of violence...especially in the USA...but that might offend all those peace loving Christians.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Steve thanks for using words which the american media cannot seem to find which are right a rain " American economies dependancy on war" I would say it as the not discussed power and influence of the military establishment within the government and our foreign policy.

[Craig Sweet]

Christianity gets bashed and made fun of all the time?  Really? Care to give some examples?  I cant recall any incidents where people told them they werent welcome in their community. I cant recall any incidents of their churches or community centers being desecrated.....I cant recall any incidents where Jesus was depicted in a cartoon....I cant recall any incidents where talk radio hosts,TV hosts, or bloggers called them evil and out to rule the world with vilolence and out to take over America.

In fact, I must tell you, I think this whole new phenomon of "the poor persecuted Christian" is a lot of bullshit.

[Craig Sweet]

No Kelly, I am aware of Christians being "gun downed"....and I am aware of the daily slaughter of Muslims....

I have little tolerence for religions and those that politicize religion, and use religion to gain power and conteol.....whether its Pam Greer, Jerry Farwell, ben Ladin, the Pope, or the Prime Minister of Isreal..

And I have real problems with those religions that feel compelled to travel the world telling people that their religion sucks, and they would be better off if they embraced the one that they were selling.

[Bill_McBride]

Sorry......we have met and I enjoyed it very much.  

I enjoyed our time together as well. Sharing a drink in the Muirfield clubhouse. I don't know how this exchange shapes your opinion but I like to think I am a pretty ordinary person and pleasant company. It is very difficult to discuss these issues without getting bullied. Some people like to impose bad qualities upon others so they can then stand on them and brow beat them.

This is a great website and discussion group where I have made a lot of friends, especially those whom I've had a chance to meet in person and share a pint or a round of golf or just hang out with.  But like all internet-based communication, there is an element of anonymity that allows people to say things they would say more politely in person.  I guess if you are going to express strong opinions you have to expect strong responses.  It goes with the territory.

And Happy New Year to all.  I was more than overjoyed to read that Prime Minister Maliki says that Iraq wants all US troops out of Iraq by the end of 2011.  Tomorrow would be better in my opinion.  Afghanistan is "unwinnable," ask the Russians, British, Alexander the Great, the Persians.......our troops in the Middle East nurture that hatred by the Islamic masses you've mentioned........Bring 'em home!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Kelly, there is a huge difference between what happens in war zone by fringe groups and what happens in the USA. I agree with Bill and a Happy New Years to one and all no matter their political views.

[Lou_Duran]

our troops in the Middle East nurture that hatred by the Islamic masses you've mentioned........Bring 'em home!

Your mere existence in FL, mine in TX, and Rocky's in Chile (or wherever he is presently) "nurtures" that hatred which seems endemic in that culture.  That I strongly support Israel and Jews all over the world only places me a bit higher on the list of infidels.  I know that you take great pride in walking the center line, but that won't win you any points with these folks.
  
It is very true that the vast majority of Muslims will not strap a bomb on or hack at your neck if the opportunity presented itself.  But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that if we left the Middle East and told the Israelis to fend for themselves that we could turn the swords of the TSA into the poughshares of our poverty industry.  So long as The Prophet is not universally acclaimed, the "faith" requires aggressive conversion.  It's been awhile since I read on this subject, but what is the philosophical underpinnings behind the "Sword of Allah"?

I don't give credence to the hornet's nest theorem- the struggle between the cultures has been going on for centuries before oil was discovered in the Middle East and Israel's founding in the late 1940s.  I suspect it will continue long past my time, though current immigration and demographic trends in the West might accelarate the process to an unfavorable conclusion.  I suppose that we might consider golf's propects in a Muslim-centric world order.  I wonder if the NGF has any interesting participation data to inform.

[Bill_McBride]

our troops in the Middle East nurture that hatred by the Islamic masses you've mentioned........Bring 'em home!

Your mere existence in FL, mine in TX, and Rocky's in Chile (or wherever he is presently) "nurtures" that hatred which seems endemic in that culture.  That I strongly support Israel and Jews all over the world only places me a bit higher on the list of infidels.  I know that you take great pride in walking the center line, but that won't win you any points with these folks.
  
It is very true that the vast majority of Muslims will not strap a bomb on or hack at your neck if the opportunity presented itself.  But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that if we left the Middle East and told the Israelis to fend for themselves that we could turn the swords of the TSA into the poughshares of our poverty industry.  So long as The Prophet is not universally acclaimed, the "faith" requires aggressive conversion.  It's been awhile since I read on this subject, but what is the philosophical underpinnings behind the "Sword of Allah"?

I don't give credence to the hornet's nest theorem- the struggle between the cultures has been going on for centuries before oil was discovered in the Middle East and Israel's founding in the late 1940s.  I suspect it will continue long past my time, though current immigration and demographic trends in the West might accelarate the process to an unfavorable conclusion.  I suppose that we might consider golf's propects in a Muslim-centric world order.  I wonder if the NGF has any interesting participation data to inform.

That may all be true, Lou, but do you honestly think our troops in the US are benefiting anybody but the military-industrial complex Eisenhower warned us against, or continuing the endless war that Orwell predicted?  Bring 'em home. 

[Lou_Duran]

Bill,

Of course I do.  They are fulfilling government's primary raison d' etre, doing what it can to keep the people safe.  You may find it hard to believe, but I am much closer to Ron Paul than either of the Bushes when it comes to issues of foreign policy and military action.  Unfortunately, other than that he played a lot of golf at ANGC and presided over a relatively calm time, I don't really know that much about Eisenhower.

I did work for a couple years for the top U.S. defense contractor coming out of grad school, and though I had a considerable view and access all the way to corporate headquarters as well as into several layers of U.S. and foreign military staff, I did not see evidence of an evil, self-promoting military-industrial complex.  The people who I knew were primarily concerned with their defined missions which, for the most part, were directed by civiian/political management.  Conflicts of interest are hardly unique in any industry, and perhaps President Eisenhower was, in part, trying to establish some non-military bonafides with this statement.

I am not a cut and run type- I detest how we left Viet Nam-, so now that we're in those two theatres, we need to complete the mission.  I do disagree with you that Afg is unwinnable, but we also probably disagree on what constitutes victory (not the establishment of democracy or nation building, but dealing a near-mortal blow to the Taliban and other terrorist groups there so they are unable to reconstitute and attack).

As you might guess, I admire Churchill but not Chamberlain.  I believe histroy shows that maintaining a well-prepared and equipped fighting force is a far superior approach to pursuing and maintaining peace than disarmament and appeasement.   I do agree with you that we must "bring 'em home" as soon as it is possible.

Happy New Year.  


 

[Craig Sweet]

Lou...if by keeping the people safe you mean keeping the oil flowing, then I agree with you on our occupation of the Middle East....Christians and Muslims have been fighting for thousands of years....when you travel through Turkey you can find churches and mosques that have the previous conqurers religious icons painted over with those of the victor....

Back to the original post....regardless of culture or country, you can find plenty of examples where the powerful...the rich...the elites....took what they wanted at the expense of the lower class....before deregulation of utilities was tried in America it was tried in South America(by many of the same companies involved in America)....a favorable government would literally give the PUBLIC utilities to these corporations....the government run utilities that had operated in the best interest of the people it served, were now run by corporations answering to shareholders...utility costs went through the roof (sound familar?) and the farmers and the citizens rioted....they got very violent.  These  people were not stupid...they now hated their government and America by association with those American companies. And that, is part of why we are not loved through out the world...we do the bidding for corporations that do nasty things to people.

[Randy Thompson]

Lou and Bill,
Eisenhower was the best from what I have seen and studied. On his closing address as president, he warned and stated, I fear for those who follow me and sit behind my desk. What I have seen come across this desk in military related matters, with my military background, in my term, is frighting. I fear for thoose that follow and don`t have the advantage of having a long career in the military and understands it workings. In other words he was saying you can`t bullshit a bull shiter! He said the military machine was out of control and a huge snow ball going down hill and accumulating such siize and force that it will be impossible to contain. Basicly everything he said in the final address has come true! I have watched this final address in recent years and it sent chills up my spine and as a result I gained and admiration and respect for him above all other American presidents. He had the balls to tell like it was and held back nothing. These are my view points and I have to respect the view points of all other also and admire the the paitriotism that some folks show on the thread and by no means have my intentions been to offend or be-little anybody to make myself look more intelligent and especially you KBM, who I have the up most repsect for, always have and always will! Everybody have a great New Year!
Lou, your point about the long war history of the Arabs and Isreal is correct, long before oil, correct and it will probably continue for centuries more, correct. Why is it so important that US has become involved lately and not throughout the rest of history. You don`t have to answer now, will the dacha be ready for inauguration for Easter, I may try to come then if they will still let me in the country! Take care!

[George_Bahto]

Well now that were have fully discussed the Caracas Country Club   .................      



Returning to the subject and starting more trouble ..........................



here is a neat picture of the clubhouse with the punchbowl 18th green in the foreground

this thread renewed my interest a bit and I rewrote the CCC chapter - imagine that (of course there was a bit of help from the many inches of global-warming-snow outside)

I shouldn’t have said that, I guess  - it’ll probably start a mad discussion about whatever this administration is now calling the warming-ending of our world

such bullshi_      

anyhow, the neat picture:

[Lou_Duran]

George,

"If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson"

Since you give this quote some prominence, you must know what it means and probably subscribe to whatever it is conveying.  I have the W & S's book and, I confess, it is probably the only one in my library that I haven't been able to finish because it is hard for me to understand without a great deal of effort.  Can you please explain the major point (s) of the quote and how it relates to the work of the three men you are writing about?

Regarding your picture of CCC, that very un-natural looking mound on the right by the road has what looks to be a eucalyptus tree growing out of it.  Since the mound was most likely manufactured, the tree was subsequently planted in it as part of the defense of the hole.  Does this constitute a form of "double jeopardy"?   Have you seen this sort of thing in other Mac/Raynor/Banks courses or do you think it was added later?  Are you an advocate of this method of protecting par or framing the green complex?

Lastly, if you're going to delve into political matters, please stay current with the language.  The intelligent, well-informed progressive knows that referring to unusual weather events as the direct effects of global warming is akin to wearing white after Labor Day.

The new term fully endorsed by the deep thinkers is "Climate Change".  This way it is much easier to attribute the full range of weather phenomena to the actions of profit-hungry carbon capitalists animated by the reptilian part of their tiny brains.  Of course, you nor I are governed by any remnants of our earliest, hard-wired instinctual stages of human evolution, and, at least in my case, have never been accused of being a particularly big thinker (thus the need for an explanation on what W & S were thinking).  Therefore, I am grateful that my intellectual betters have clarified things for me on this most critical issue.  BTW, it was over 70* north of Dallas yesterday, and today looks very nice as well.

Happy New Year!     

[Jim Nugent]

Do you agree with her that Obama is a Muslim?

Craig, I've never read or heard anything she has written.  But I think there is reason to believe Obama may be a Muslim.  Sounds like you are sure he is not.  Can you tell me why?  I'll show you mine, if you show me yours. 

[George_Bahto]

Lou

"If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
Wethered & Simpson"

what this means to me is that the longer hitter - or the better player - being a better player or a longer hitter, should have a less wide landing area to play to - - the narrowing (gradual bottle-necking) of a landing zone might well be appropriate at times

about the photo/tree/mound

who knows - that’s So America, fella ..... double jeopardy?   The tree is beyond the green

[Craig Sweet]

Jim...I believe Obama attends a Christian church and has for quite sometime. And I do not believe there is an iota of eveidence that he is anything BUT a Christian. I know the extremist, and the haters have all sorts of whacky conspiracies in their heads....his father was a Muslim, so he is automaticly one too....or he attended a Muslim school in Indonesia, so he has been trained as a Muslim (thats funny...I attended school with Jews and Hindus and I would never consider them to be closet Christians by association)   As for my opinion, I could careless if he's a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu or a Jew. You might have a problem with him regardless of what religion he practices. Would it bother you if he was a Mormon, a Jew, a Buddist or a Muslim? And if so, why?

I believe there's a lot of religious intolerance in the world and ignorance is behind 99% of it. When I hear people in America condem the Islamic faith and call it a religion based on violence, or speak of a Muslim conspiracy to take over the USA, I have to laugh! No religion in America has been more violent than our very own home grown Christians.  No religion has been as hell bent on ramming its value system down the throats of Americans than our own home grown Christians.  No religion has as much representation in our government than our own home grown Christian religion.  They have gone so far as to claim the country was founded on their religious principals when the founders tried,  and succeded, in
keeping the government from sanctioning any state religion.

I don't think things have changed over the centuries....Religion is still used to control people, to scare people, to justify violent acts against others, to gain power and wealth....in my opinion in its extreme its a nasty disease....at its best its a comfort for some.

[Craig Sweet]

So claims Kinky!
 

[Lou_Duran]

Lou
what this means to me is that the longer hitter - or the better player - being a better player or a longer hitter, should have a less wide landing area to play to - - the narrowing (gradual bottle-necking) of a landing zone might well be appropriate at times

about the photo/tree/mound

who knows - that’s So America, fella ..... double jeopardy?   The tree is beyond the green

George,

Would you say that your boys (Macdonald, Raynor, Banks) advocated this aspect of W & S' philosohpy in their designs?  My impression is that theirs was more of providing width with mounds and difficult bunkers to create prefered angles.

As to the picture with the tree, I couldn't see how the tree "is beyond the green" (the one just to the right of the spectator reposing), so I pulled up the Google Satellite to see if I could find the 18th green around the clubhouse.  It appears that if the picture you posted is of CCC's 18th, it or the club might have been moved.  From the current satellite, it appears that the club has several blocks and a freeway before the foot of the mountains.  Might the picture have been mislabled, or are my eyes deceiving me?

Looking again at the picture from the angle of play it suggests, it might actually be an example of "triple jeopardy".  The indifferent golfer, often a slicer, hits a weak shot up against the road where he has to pick-up the club abruptly to hit down on the ball, elevate it high enough to clear the mound, while still missing the tree growing out of it.  Perhaps the punchbowl was Banks' way to take some of the sting out of it.

The Google Satellite, assuming that it is of CCC, also shows a course that might be very interesting.   Converting it to public housing could create some real social problems-not many high ranking socialist government officials and their crony capitalists like to live next to the impoverished masses they so adore.  My thinking is that talk of the course's imminent demise is premature, though desperate men do desperate things.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The mound predates the tree, and if you blow the photo up you can see the 'flare' at the base of the tree, the roots running laterally along the ground, and it's also clear to see that the mound encircles the tree, the tree is not growing out of it.  The car in the photo is of the same vintage as the golf course. Not enough time for it to get that big, even in that particular climate.


George,
Looks like it would have been the perfect place for a 'Road' hole.  


p.s. that's 'Climate Change' now 

[Craig Sweet]

Ah...so Kelly, there are all types of Christians....from radical Christians to quiet, contemplative Christians....and I would think the same is true with those that practice Islam. Your new favorite blogger, Pam Geller does not think so...

I think some Christians blend a much less tolerent Old Testiment with a more tolerent New Testiment...those that tend to be more radical find much to support their message of hate in the Old Testiment....not surprising given its origin.  And I think there is plenty of evidence to link some of the more radical Christians with white supremacist and anti Jewish leanings....Tim McVie would be an obvious example.

You hit upon the fundamental problem with religion....how can someone that claims to follow Jesus, blow up a building filled with people? How can his "teachings" and his reading of the Bible  lead him to hate Jews, hate gays, and hate his country....Where is the love, where is the tolerance, that (as far as I know) all religions preach?  Well, its right there and Mc Vie decided to ignore it and pull the bits and pieces from the OT and the NT that would justify his hatred and blood lust....

People like Pamela Geller are consumed with hatred and they hide behind a false story (much like praying to false idols) that they claim is the real word of god...people like her have existed through out history and they will always be around so long as we have religions.

[George_Bahto]

Lou asked: “Would you say that your boys (Macdonald, Raynor, Banks) advocated this aspect of W & S' philosophy in their designs?

.......   Not often - most prominently off the tee in the Bottle holes

Lou: “My impression is that theirs was more of providing width with mounds and difficult bunkers to create preferred angles.”

I agree.

That picture is of the 9th green not the 18th - sorry - the roadway to the right of the green

Lou, in the picture, the line of play is from the lower left so the mound and tree you are talking about is dead right of the green. That is the 19th hole, now 535-yards.

[Lou_Duran]

Thanks George.  Amazing how close the mountain looks in the picture, yet it is the equivalent of several blocks back.  The aerial shows a fairly tight course with a concise, easy-to-follow routing on a small site, crossing roads several times.  Behind that tree on 9, if it is still standing, is probably where I would be laying up on my errant second shot.  According to a scorecard on the Internet, the hole is now 490 yards from the back (gold), with an overall course yardage around 6600 yards.  I wonder who did the bunkering after the picture you posted had been taken.