[Geoff_Shackelford]

"I'm sorry, they didn't get a grip on the manufacturers. And they let them get out of hand. And now they are trying to make it up by changing the greatest pieces of art work that we have in the world. I think that they went about this all wrong. Meaning the USGA should have stopped this before it has ever gotten to this point instead of changing great golf courses."
-Hal Sutton, Golf Central, 2-18-02

[Matt_Ward]

Geoff:

Hal's remarks are noteworthy and clearly deserve praise, however, I've got to ask is he taking any direct efforts with Spalding in regards to this topic? Last I checked they are a major equipment company.

Players have a habit in speaking in general terms, but are quick to pocket the endorsement $$ from various equipment companies. Is Hal any different than many of his colleagues?

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Matt,
It's a fair point, but Hal Sutton is different so far from most of his colleagues: he said something! He's made the connection and shared his views, even if he faces a complaint from his manufacturer. It's a start.
Geoff

[brad_miller]

Geoff, I can't type that fast, ditto.

[TEPaul]

Matt;

My God give the poor guy the credit he deserves!! He is the first touring pro I've ever heard make a statement like that! And the notable thing to keep in mind, is, as Geoff said, he's the first one to make the CONNECTION that truly is this problem. In one brief statement he mentioned the distance problem, the manufacturers, the USGA and the effect of all of it on the classic courses of the world!!

What more could we ask for at this point? I swear to God, if I didn't know better I would swear that Geoff Shackelford wrote that statement for him but apparently not!

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Hal does deserve credit for an honest observation. When is the last time the tour did anything like that. By the by, hal's dad was a very successful oilman from shreveport. The Centenary golf team used to travel by private jet to events occasionally when Hal was on the team.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

I'd be happy to give Hal all the credit he deserves when he earns it beyond just a nice sound bite. Just keep in mind equipment companies arent paying good ole boy Hal (or any other pro for that matter) to take public positions that run contrary to their purpose -- making $$ through their equipment promises.

When professionals start to take more concrete actions beyond just public statements (i.e. Jack Nicklaus, Tom Weiskopf, Raymond Floyd, etc.) I'll be more than happy to salute him and or any other pro. Right now -- I'm just taking the Missouri approach -- show me.

[Dan Kelly]

Matt --

Exactly HOW would you have him show you?

[BCrosby]

Matt -

It would be irrational for any equipment company to unilateraly disarm.  Therefore it would be irrational for Sutton to ask them to do so.

Unless the other companies are forced to disarm or unless they all agree to disarm voluntarily, it would be economic suicide for any one company to do so.

No company alone will solve the problem.  It must be done in concert, either by way of new rules (USGA) or because they all decide it is the right thing to do (highly unlikely).  There isn't a third way.  

Sutton is not being two-faced about anything.  His comments are to be applauded without reservation.

BTW, Stuart Cink has expressed similar views in the local papers here in ATL.  He is also someone who gets it.

Bob  

[brad_miller]

Thought I read somewhere that Cink's fav book about golf was Thomas's GAA!! None of the other pros asked this question mentioned anything to do with arch.

[Matt_Ward]

BCrosby & Dan Kelly:

I didn't say equipment companies need to unilaterally disarm. How about less sabre rattling about harmful lawsuits that can cause major disruption to the health of the game? How about more of a collaborative approach? What Hal needs to say (or someone higher on the scale of public awareness) is that this situation only breaks down the game and doesn't do anyone any good.

How about staging a major press conference (with players from a variety of different equipment companies so that one company isn't looked upon as a savior or pariah) at each of the big four events and saying that meaningful collaboration is long overdue. Just having the players come together and say such a thing would be a good start in getting collaborative dialogue instead of the "my way" or "highway" approach you see with the USGA and a number of the equipment companies.

Would Tiger take part or does he take marching orders from Phil Knight? I remember not too long ago Michael Jordan's reluctance to tweak his cash paying cow called Nike on the issue of third world countries making his now $200 sneakers. Michael balked -- would Tiger?

The players have a major role -- because they are the ingredients that give all of this equipment a human dimension. When the players come together is when something can happen. Is Hal interested in being a Lech Walesa / Joan of Arc type who points out the problems and raises the discussion beyond the clutter and din that goes on now? Sometimes the first in line often gets their head handed to them

Many professionals are about one thing -- pay me for anything remotely attached to my time in the sun -- just check the walking billboards that march down each fairway. The only thing more commercial is Nascar driving suits! In unity there is strength -- the players can do this, but who has the quinones to make it so. If players want a role model all they can see is how Arnold Palmer, the revered king, settled for a few coins from Ely Callaway's pocket. Not a great picture indeed.

Get a number of leading players together and things may happen. Since the touring professional is a solo contractor I don't think you'll get much else but a nice sound bite from time to time. Sorry to sound less than enthusiastic guys, but unless people want to go really public you won't see much. And, I can tell for sure that it had better be a player of note because the rest will see their contracts terminated or reduced considerably in value.

Just keep in mind Hal's age and how much time he has as a major endorser. If you want action on this issue you'll need Tiger, Phil and a few big names or some top young players with long term futures. Is Charlie Howell prepared to do something along these lines? These are the folks who have leverage over the equipment companies -- not the other way around. And, I still believe Jack has clout but not by himself anymore.

Just a few thoughts ...

[Russell Lo]

In addition to Hal Sutton's comments, I thought the phone interview with the Director of Communications for the USGA later in Golf Central was very telling. In it he mentioned that some feel the USGA does too much while others feel they do too much. He believes they've reached a very good balance. Hogwash!

Geoff, what else did you expound on in the TV interview that unfortunately edited out.

Thanks

[Tim_Weiman]

Shivas:

Don't be so worried about getting the manufacturers to "agree".  That would get you tied up in debate for another 5-10 years.

The USGA should be fair about the process of making a transition (i.e., provide a comment period, adequate analysis period and sufficient lead time for implementation), but the entire process shouldn't take more than 2-3 years.

The most important thing is just taking the first step and announcing the intention to roll back the ball 10-20 percent.

Tom Paul:

I happily second your comments about Hal Sutton.

[Lou Duran]

Hal Sutton is to be lauded without reservation for his stance.  Sorry Matt, but the equipment companies are there to make a profit for its owners, not to preserve several dozen golf courses as museum pieces.  It is up to the USGA, R&A, PGA, the tours and other similar organizations to protect and ensure the integrity and vitality of the game.  A natural tension between the manufacturers and the rule makers should be expected.  In a highly competitive environment, the Spaldings and Nikes of the world have to come up with new products and differentiate their brands with specific performance improvement features in order to survive.  If the USGA believes that these efforts have reached the point where the health of the game is threatened, then it needs to take decisive action.  Perhaps there is fear that seeking legal recourse would not be successful; maybe there is not sufficient concensus that the game is in peril.  BTW, GOLFWEEK reports that Tiger believes that the Torrey Pines renovation succeeded in making it a "wonderful" US Open venue.

[Daniel Wexler]

Regarding Russell Lo's above mention of the U$GA spokesperson's response, I'm wondering:

Are there any examples of people NOT ON THE PAYROLL OF AN EQUIPMENT MANUFACTURER publically stating that the U$GA has regulated the equipment too much?

[Dan Kelly]

Shivas has it right: Tiger is the key.

Tiger -- and a Competition Ball...possibly made by Nike.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan K:

The question is simple -- is Tiger a businessman or a golfer? If he follows Michael Jordan's path the answer is obvious.

I'd love to see Tiger take the path outlined by Shivas with the Golden Bear standing next to him. I don't think Tiger's handlers at Nike will permit that unless they stand to gain somehow as you allude with a competition ball. But I don't think the production of such a ball will fly since the different companies have so much stake with their own branding / marketing efforts.

Lou D:

Have to disagree with you, but without some sort of collaborative spirit the situation only accelerates. Does anyone believe that equipment companies can be FORCED to do something by a volunteer organization. Lou, this isn't the SEC telling companies they must do "X" or they could go to jail. I just think it's far easier and more meaningful in going through the collaborative approach then in forcing things down someone's throat through edicts from Far Hills. Diplomacy is not easy, but it can create long term benefits without appeasing anyone or squashing someone in the final product.

As to your last point -- when you stretch out Torrey Pines to over 7,600 yards -- that tells me something in a very straightforward way.  

[JakaB]

Why not have a 'Tournament Hole' say of 3" diameter for regular tour events and 2" diameter for majors...then we could watch more exciting putting on the tube which could only be slightly more thrilling than counting the age spots on Venturi's forehead.  I appologize if they are melanomas from the greatest open finale in sports history...sorry I better go looking for that life I'm missing.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Geoff,

The pros game has made some in power impose change on tournament venues for reasons.  If these courses, particularly the classic courses like Riviera, did not host the professionals, would the course be "outdated" for the members.  I surveyed the local papers to see the winning scores for the Men's Club Championships in my area and the scores were not low.  In fact, at one very short private course the winner was 1 under over three days and he has won the club championship 2 out of 3 years at Pine Valley.  I mentioned this to members at a club in Philly and they say the scores at their championships have not changed.

Are the classics outdated for the members?  Do you see this in your travels?  Has the superior play of the pros distorted our understanding of the issue?

[Richard_Goodale]

Kelly

Very interesting observation.  My experience at the club with which I have the longest association (Dornoch) is that scores for important amateur stroke play events have been very stable over the past 20 years.  I played in the Club Championship this year and the winning score (291) was very typical.  This score was +11 (-1 vis a vis "course rating") and was apropriate for the quality of the field (3 scratch players) and the relatively benign conditions.

I'd be very interested in hearing of other "real world" examples.

Rich

[TEPaul]

I've said this quite a few times on here over the last year and one half. It's very likely--very likely--that there is something that Tiger Woods would like more than anything!!

And that would be that by the end of his potentially awesome career there would be ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about his career that would have an asterisk next to it in anyone's mind!! Hint, hint--like; "Oh sure but Woods was equipment aided!!"

He would like more than anything to somehow compete with the likes of the elusive Bobby Jones. Obviously he will never be able to do that! The best he can do is hope for as much of a "level playing field" between the eras as he can get or anyone can give him!

Who's in a position to do just that? If they can even attempt to give it to him do you think he would support their attempt? And who in the world today could lend more powerful support than Woods?  In my opinion, you can bet your ass he would. I also feel that the PGA Tour and Ray Knight too would probably just have to get on board and go along on the ride!!!

[Dunlop_White]

Ben Crenshaw does not shy away from this issue either. He continuously complains about the ball and/or the equipment and the detrimental effect they have had on both championship venues and the ever-emulating Country Club.
Have we seen any results? I don't think so! I guess Crenshaw is no Tiger or MJ, so perhaps you are right Tom, Maybe, we need Tiger take a stance. However, this would merely just give the issue some light. It is far more complicated than this

[SPDB]

Dunlop - What do you mean by "ever-emulating Country Club" means.  

thanks,
sean

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward:

The USGA has every right to make rules for its own championships and after huffing and puffing for a while the equipment companies will all fall in line.

As I've said elsewhere, the USGA just needs to follow a reasonable approach to change management.  This is not much more than Management Consulting 101.

[Lou Duran]

Matt-

My main point is that we shouldn't expect behavior beyond one's nature or self-interest.  I don't believe that technology is the major factor in higher green fees, and that together with higher equipment costs, it is resulting in lower participation.  I understand that the USGA does not have the enforcement powers of the SEC, but as a rule making body, in my opinion, it has abdicated its responsibilities.  The ERC II's lack of commercial success in this country suggests to me at least that the USGA is able to arrest the technology race.  Regarding my comment about Torrey Pines, I thought that the pre-renovation course was plenty long for me.  I am not a proponent of lengthening or renovating a course for the single purpose of holding a periodic professional tournament.

TEP-

Wishful thinking!  If Tiger continues to play as he has for another 15+/- years, he will have surpassed all of Nicklaus's records.  Nicklaus is widely thought to be the greatest player of all time because of his record in the majors in an era when the competition was stronger than ever before.  The Tour is only getting more competitive, and the same criteria will be applied when Tiger completes his career.  The equipment difference will not be a major issue, nor the fact that the courses have changed considerably from Bobby Jones's heyday, to Nicklaus's, to the present day.  If the USGA leads on the techonology proliferation issue, I believe that many will follow.  I suspect that there is considerable disagreement within the group regarding the impact of technology on the game.  
  

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