[Jason Topp]

I have played the hole many times and really like it.

I believe it is simply fun to hit a ball over something.  Many revered holes offer the same challenge - the Himilayas at Prestwick, the bunker on the 4th at Royal Melbourne West, the Dell hole and the short par three at Painswick.  

Similar challenges are rare in the US.  Thus - hitting a short iron over a tree is a memorable change of pace, even if it is unfair to women and seniors.  Take away the tree and no one would remember the hole.  

[Jason Topp]

Sometimes aesthetics alone should be THE clue about a hole and this par 3 fails miserably.  It is one of the ugliest holes I have seen a while and for that reason alone it gets an F.

Ciao

Sean - Hard to understand why the aesthetics are objectionable.  This is muni golf which should be right up your alley - $30 or so.  You are not going to get charming bunkers or attention to other aesthetic details at that rate in the US, especially on rich soil on a course that gets heavy play.   

[Ross Tuddenham]

Sean - Hard to understand why the aesthetics are objectionable.  This is muni golf which should be right up your alley - $30 or so.  You are not going to get charming bunkers or attention to other aesthetic details at that rate in the US, especially on rich soil on a course that gets heavy play.   
[/quote]

The cost of taking a chainsaw to the tree would surely not raise the green fee over $30. 


If muni courses are a way to provide those new to the game somewhere to start out, then blocking them with a tree is not really going to entice them to come back. I dont suppose your best shot straight up the middle of the hole ricocheting around a tree is much fun.

[Phil_the_Author]

So is this feature an actual requirement for Wisconsin courses? It would also explain agreat deal about Jerry Kelly's swing! 

[Jason Topp]

The cost of taking a chainsaw to the tree would surely not raise the green fee over $30. 


If muni courses are a way to provide those new to the game somewhere to start out, then blocking them with a tree is not really going to entice them to come back. I dont suppose your best shot straight up the middle of the hole ricocheting around a tree is much fun.

Ross:

I see the purpose of municipal golf as providing affordable golf, not necessarily golf for beginners.  Although this course is playable for beginners, it has also hosted major championships it also has a rich tournament history:

"Keller Golf Course has been the home of several PGA and LPGA golf tournaments and was a regular stop on both professional tours. Keller was the host of the St. Paul Open 1930-1968; the National PGA Championship 1932 and 1954; the Western Open 1949; the Patty Berg Golf Classic 1970-1980; and the National Amateur Publinks Championship was held at Keller in 1931. The displays in the clubhouse showcase Keller’s proud heritage. Photos of golf’s historic champions grace its walls as they once roamed the hallowed fairways of Keller Golf Course."

[Jeff_Brauer]

I kind of like it.  If we talk of designing to encourage or require "all the shots" then certainly one hole requiring a high loft short iron is okay in my book.

I agree there needs to be more of a run up bail out to make the hole better.  Losing the bunker and trimming some bottom branches might do it, as would extending the green left or right a bit to provide the option of getting somewhere on the green without negotiating the tree.  Maybe even adding a nursing slope to kick those shots on the edge of the green.

If most greens have an open middle easy to access, and tucked edge pins protected by bunkers, what is wrong with the occaisional green where the middle is guarded, and the easy access is to one of the edges?

[Niall C]

The nine hole par 3 course at Valderramma has a near identical hole of about 90 yards (from memory). I think I'm right in saying the par 3 course was by Robert Trent Jones who did the big course. A great bit of fun after the main event.

If I recall my solution was to tee up the driver and smack the ball into the canopy of the tree in the hope that the ball might get through to the otherside (as I say, a bit of fun after the main event !). From memory the ball dropped stone dead in front of the green where I managed to chip in.

Niall

[Tim Gavrich]

Fascinating-looking hole.  I wouldn't eliminate all of the bunker, personally, as I like the color contrast.  Instead, I would get rid of the right half of the bunker and try to maintain that whole area under the right side of the tree as fairway and maybe re-contour it a bit to make a run-up a viable option so that those who avail themselves of the punch shot don't have to worry about the bunker but those who go up and over the tree might.

Or, you could make the cart path about ten yards wider and extend it down the hill so that players could use it as a run-up option.  If it's gotta be there, at least incorporate it into the hole! 

[Mike Hendren]

There appears to be a kickplate that slopes down toward the green on the right hand side.  If so, this is the first photograph of a legitimate Treedan posted on the site.  

I like it.

MIke

[Peter Pallotta]

Morgan - thanks, and a question: if that tree is indeed as old as the course, where do you think Mr. Coates would've gotten the idea for it? The story you share about him makes him seem an appealing and dedicated fellow, i.e. volunteering his services and then travelling on his own dime to educate himself via visits to private and public courses around the country, spending time with Donald Ross, and reading “Golf Architecture in America”.  But in all that, where do you think he would've picked up this unusual and whimsical idea of having a tree right in front of the green, especially on a course that (as one might expect from a serious 'student') was in other was so grounded in good and traditional principles/styles?

But maybe I'm making too much of this, and Mr. Coates simply had a sense of humour to go along with his engineer's brain.

Peter

[Ross Tuddenham]

I kind of like it.  If we talk of designing to encourage or require "all the shots" then certainly one hole requiring a high loft short iron is okay in my book.

The tree would have to be much taller to make anyone in single figures even think about needing to alter the trajectory of a standard strike with a short iron.  All you do is cause a real hit and hope situation for the slightly weaker player.
 
If you really want to require the player to hit the shot you describe then why not do it with the size, shape or contour of the green?  That way 20 handicappers don't have to play tree pinball.

[Duncan Cheslett]

A local course to me, Hazel Grove, had a par 3 hole where you had to play across a road up to a raised blind green in a tiny clearing in the forest on the other side of a valley. A small hole in the tree canopy was all there was to aim at. There was literally only one shot possible on this hole, and it had to be perfect. Anything less resulted in a lost ball.

Unfortunately the hole is no more, as half the course was lost to an aborted road-building scheme, but it was legendary in its time and is still spoken about with awe by senior players throughout the region who remember it. Proof that par 3's do not have to offer options to be good holes.

It's architect?

One Dr A. MacKenzie...

[Shane Wright]

Morgan,

You are correct, for tourneys, it is typically a front middle or front left pin.  Front left brings the ob seriously into play on the left. 

Like I said, the hole is boring without the tree, but I think some other changes need to be made because of the tree.  I have had several plinko shots with the tree that I felt were pure and kick in birdies coming off the clubface. 

But in a casual round, it is kind of fun to think about the shot and direction to play it. 

Thank you for sharing the photos and breakdown,

Shane

[Mike Wagner]

Morgan,

Cool looking hole - I dig it - classic old hole you'd never see designed these days.  It's 130 from the middle - if you  can't get over, well, go around to the right.  Seems to me it would be quite boring without it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Russ,

I understand why it is not considered great architecture by many.  I agree it does nothing to the better player (in common with most hazards) and by counting "flagstick heights" it appears the tree may be 70' high.  I know average players get the ball that high (better players are 90-110 feet) so its a tweener for many average players in my mind.

That said, I do think that kind of challenge does need a different way to play, and I offered a few options - trimming up lower tree limbs and taking out the bunker, or extending the green each way with kick plates.  I think it would be fun to hit the green with a "non standard" shot in that way and would make the golfer feel he really pulled one off.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Morgan,

Thanks for the pic and analysis.  I'm surprised at the visceral reactions of those who don't like the hole--the only thing that offends me about it is the cart path on the right side.  I agree that the rough should be mowed to fairway height, then it seems to me anyone could play the hole just fine.  Would I want to play this hole every week?  No, I think the novelty would wear off.  Removing the bunker is a waste of money, because you'll need it when the tree is dead and gone.

By those who say that certain players can't play the hole, I'm reminded of the 9th at Kingsley.  I was fortunate to be part of a group discussing it with Mike DeVries.  In response to some complaining about the hole, he said "Why are you trying to hit the green?"  

[Morgan Clawson]

Peter,

I really don't know too much about Paul Coates, and where he got the idea.

Perhaps he came up with it on his own.

[Morgan Clawson]

The tree would have to be much taller to make anyone in single figures even think about needing to alter the trajectory of a standard strike with a short iron.  All you do is cause a real hit and hope situation for the slightly weaker player.
 
If you really want to require the player to hit the shot you describe then why not do it with the size, shape or contour of the green?  That way 20 handicappers don't have to play tree pinball.

-Ross

Ross,

You are correct. The tee shot doesn't require anything special; just a good solid strike. Even a 20 can get it over the tree with a 7 iron. Again, most mid handicappers are capable of hitting it high enough, they just don't hit it far enough.  That's usaully the issue for mid handicappers on holes with and without trees!

[Morgan Clawson]

Thanks for the pic and analysis.  I'm surprised at the visceral reactions of those who don't like the hole--the only thing that offends me about it is the cart path on the right side.  I agree that the rough should be mowed to fairway height, then it seems to me anyone could play the hole just fine.  Would I want to play this hole every week?  No, I think the novelty would wear off.  Removing the bunker is a waste of money, because you'll need it when the tree is dead and gone.

By those who say that certain players can't play the hole, I'm reminded of the 9th at Kingsley.  I was fortunate to be part of a group discussing it with Mike DeVries.  In response to some complaining about the hole, he said "Why are you trying to hit the green?" 

-Eric

Eric, players definitely have a love hate feeling toward this hole, which is why I thought it would be fun to post it.

I think it would be fun to try to get there under the tree, but it would be the more difficult shot for most players.

#9 at Kingsley is definitely more difficult then this hole!  When I played from the west tee, I thought just short and left of the green was the right play.

[Garland Bayley]

Morgan,

Cool looking hole - I dig it - classic old hole you'd never see designed these days.  It's 130 from the middle - if you  can't get over, well, go around to the right.  Seems to me it would be quite boring without it.

No, these days they offset the middle tees a little so you just have to clear the bunker.



This is a these days monstrosity, Hunter Ranch, Pasa Robles, CA, where they make you hit the most desirable shot over trees on six of 18 holes.

[cary lichtenstein]

90 years ago when the course was built the tree was no bigger than a 2' shrub.

[Randy Thompson]

Can anybody confirm the tree has been there from day one and was the intention of the original architect. Looks to me like something a greens chairman would do to leave his, "Mark!" Any one shot hole requiring only one specific shot falls into the weak catagory in my book. Not much difference than an island green except you stlll have a reasonable chance to make par if you don`t excute the perfect prescribed shot. Not realistic to think there exsist a second type shot such as I am going to hit this low under the branches and stop it on the green, with or without the bunker. I just don`t see an architect at the start of a project, planting a tree to create design strategy. It would be be different if I encountered  the best routing and had what I considered 17 good solid holes but such a tree or similar was located on a par three. I would probably leave the tree but try to design around it and leave one portion of the green requiring such a shot but the other side accessible without tree interference. Actually just finished constructing such a hole, the left side has a sixty or seventy year olds native tree in front of it so that pin position will be the same as in the picture. The middle is open and the far right side has a smaller tree but not as massive by any means. The middle of the green slopes to the right and anything rollinng on to the green will go right and find that pin position. Left side pin postion will require the prescbied shot but high handicappers can still play to the middle of the greens or even f they end up right still have a chance at two putting. Have not posted pictures in a while but will go back and see if I still know how and post.

[Charlie Goerges]

All I can say is I've played it a few times and my feelings are mixed. But other than the first and tenth holes, this is the only one I can readily remember from the course.

[Cristian]

The cart path is a bigger eyesore than the tree, that's for sure. (Kickboard usable or not ;-) )

If it is indeed heavy ground I do not see how a low shot (or kickboard) option could work year round (depending on climate) without some considerable investment. (which probably is a no-no at a local muni).

I do not know how fast Oaks grow, but my guess is the designer did not have the current picture in mind.

If the tree continues to grow, which it will, since it is not dead, it is not a question if the tree needs to go but rather when it needs to go.

Also the bunker combined with a shallow green already requires a high lofted shot.

That's 4 reasons to start up the chainsaw...

[Brad Wilbur]

Saw the course in '74, while watching the LPGA tournament there.  Unfortunately, I was more interested in Laura Baugh's architecture than of the course itself.

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