Will more courses become member driven in the future.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
Please, it's not about intimidation or nose rings, if anything you are making a good case for the failure on the part of board members to do what they are supposed to. That makes them wussies and your premise is false.

agree but many are intimidated.........and also understand that many of you don't have this problem...but there are a lot of places where it exist....

[Jim_Kennedy]

JMEvensky / Mike,

If a club president is going to be intimidated by an employee because of his lack of knowledge he shouldn't have been chosen in the first place, and I have to wonder about board members who make decisions because the president says they should.  Why have a board and why have board members if that's the case? And it follows that if some proposal, even one made by Attila-the-Employee, is voted up by the members it is still their choice, not the employees.

Pretty simple, don't empower milquetoasts.

[Mike_Young]

JMEvensky / Mike,

If a club president is going to be intimidated by an employee because of his lack of knowledge he shouldn't have been chosen in the first place, and I have to wonder about board members who make decisions because the president says they should.  Why have a board and why have board members if that's the case? And it follows that if some proposal, even one made by Attila-the-Employee, is voted up by the members it is still their choice, not the employees.

Pretty simple, don't empower milquetoasts.

Jim,
Yes in an ideal world you are correct....but there are many clubs where the president doesn't know the difference between a golf professional and a professional golfer and after playing with his pro a few times feels that Elwood the pro could play the tour....

[Bob_Huntley]

Why is it that so many private clubs, have as their GM, a Food and Beverage man? I think that a local club here is running seven or eight dining spots around the Club and losing money on every one of them, in spite of not having to pay rent.

I can think of no club where the employees have the power envisaged by Mike. Some caddies at prestigious clubs may come off that way with unaccompanied guests but  would get bounced if they tried that with a member.

Bob

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Don't blame the employee because the president is a moron.  

[Mike_Young]

Jim/Bob and others....

OK I can see where you might not have ever seen it but there are plenty of places where this happens...
I can show you clubs where the board ask the manager if he can work with specific members before they put them on the board...I can show you clubs where the manager is involved in the nominating process of clubs...I can show you many examples of where the manager has total manipulation of a board....some of you may have never seen it but it is there....so many don't have more than an hour or two a month for a meeting and a lunch and they leave all to the manager....it all happens not because presidents and board members are morons...a nicer word is ignorant of the facts....the main thing for a board member is CYA.....I have see boards pay three times what it cost to build a green because the club down the street spent that much and it is not worth spending less and having a problem and members saying they did it differently....

Anyway...I still say it exist in a big way...

Happy New Year

[JMEvensky]

Jim/Bob and others....

OK I can see where you might not have ever seen it but there are plenty of places where this happens...
I can show you clubs where the board ask the manager if he can work with specific members before they put them on the board...I can show you clubs where the manager is involved in the nominating process of clubs...I can show you many examples of where the manager has total manipulation of a board....some of you may have never seen it but it is there....so many don't have more than an hour or two a month for a meeting and a lunch and they leave all to the manager....it all happens not because presidents and board members are morons...a nicer word is ignorant of the facts....the main thing for a board member is CYA.....I have see boards pay three times what it cost to build a green because the club down the street spent that much and it is not worth spending less and having a problem and members saying they did it differently....

Anyway...I still say it exist in a big way...

Happy New Year

Quoted for truth.

It's usually not something that happens by choice--it's more of a gradual slide.All it takes is a few years of Presidents/Boards who are there for no good reason other than they thought it would look good on a CV.It just becomes easier/safer to let the highest paid employee make the decision.

After a while,the GM's way of doing things gets codified and nobody's left on the Board to remember why/how things got this way.

[Mike_Young]

JM...
We been to some of the same places...
I think it is more epidemic than some think...all for the CV etc....

[JMEvensky]

JM...
We been to some of the same places...
I think it is more epidemic than some think...all for the CV etc....

Much worse--I pay dues at one.

When a President tells you that he wants to emulate Pebble Beach,the best private club he's ever been to(that's truly what he said),you know you've got problems.

Add in a GM whose total golf course knowledge was what he learned at a CMAA club manager's camp,and you've got a disaster.

The cherry on the sundae was the Green Chairman who ruled by the philosophy of "in the land of the blind,the one-eyed man is King".Sad part was that he was blind in that eye,too.

Ah,those halcyon days.

My guess is you're right about the epidemic.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike/JM,
You both are making my point for me. It's not the employees at the club, it's the presidents, board members, committee chairman and other lesser ignorami with a self-serving CYA mentality looking to improve their CVs.

.........and you two thought it was the employees.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

.....by the way, I'm not saying that there aren't any 'bad' employees, only that it's not their visions which guide the sorry clubs you guys 'know'.

[JMEvensky]

Mike/JM,
You both are making my point for me. It's not the employees at the club, it's the presidents, board members, committee chairman and other lesser ignorami with a self-serving CYA mentality looking to improve their CVs.

.........and you two thought it was the employees.  

I've plainly said,several times,that the members/Boards/Presidents bear ultimate culpability.

Further,I've said,several times,that I have but one personal experience.And,in that experience,the members/Board/Presidents were certainly ultimately responsible for the problem.

However,if these people had chosen to defer to a capable GM,at least things would have been OK.In my example,the GM wasn't qualified to manage a Red Roof Inn.

No one is arguing that the members aren't responsible for running their own club.That's a given.

[JMEvensky]

.....by the way, I'm not saying that there aren't any 'bad' employees, only that it's not their visions which guide the sorry clubs you guys 'know'.

All due respect,in my example,you're wrong on the facts.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JM,
In your example, I'll accede, but not in general.

edit: ...but the guy didn't hire himself.

[JMEvensky]

JM,
In your example, I'll accede, but not in general.

edit: ...but the guy didn't hire himself.

Which is why I try to only cite examples I have knowledge of.

As to this GM's hiring,you're certainly correct.It was something that actually made sense at the time for inside-baseball reasons.Let's just say "mistakes were made".

The good news is that he's now driving somebody else's club over a cliff.

[Randy St John]

Jim/Bob and others....

OK I can see where you might not have ever seen it but there are plenty of places where this happens...
I can show you clubs where the board ask the manager if he can work with specific members before they put them on the board...I can show you clubs where the manager is involved in the nominating process of clubs...I can show you many examples of where the manager has total manipulation of a board....some of you may have never seen it but it is there....so many don't have more than an hour or two a month for a meeting and a lunch and they leave all to the manager....it all happens not because presidents and board members are morons...a nicer word is ignorant of the facts....the main thing for a board member is CYA.....I have see boards pay three times what it cost to build a green because the club down the street spent that much and it is not worth spending less and having a problem and members saying they did it differently....

Anyway...I still say it exist in a big way...

Happy New Year

This is an interesting debate.  I could argue that a qualified general manager should be involved in all of the above...but I won't.  Instead, I would ask that Mike directly tell us which of these “clubs” are being led by incompetent staff.  The argument you make applies to some clubs, of course, but anecdotal “facts” without foundation as presented are of little value to professional club staff.

[Randy St John]

JM...
We been to some of the same places...
I think it is more epidemic than some think...all for the CV etc....

Much worse--I pay dues at one.

When a President tells you that he wants to emulate Pebble Beach,the best private club he's ever been to(that's truly what he said),you know you've got problems.

Add in a GM whose total golf course knowledge was what he learned at a CMAA club manager's camp,and you've got a disaster.

The cherry on the sundae was the Green Chairman who ruled by the philosophy of "in the land of the blind,the one-eyed man is King".Sad part was that he was blind in that eye,too.

Ah,those halcyon days.

My guess is you're right about the epidemic.

FYI, a membership that gives voice to this mindset generally only attracts someone capable of running a Red Roof.   :PThe two most important committees at any club are membership and nominating.  Who gets in and who gets to make decisions.  Not the hiring committee when you do a search for a GM,, Super or Pro. 

[Mike_Young]

Randy,
No one is saying that any of these employees is incompetent....please understand that...in most cases they are more than competent but they know they can manipulate and control the boards.What I feel happens in many cases is a manager becomes more focused on bringing in more revenues and adding line items that hopefully will bring in members or justify dues increases....if you look at some of the CMAA charts etc it shows salaries of managers based on club revenues...more revenues the more the manger should make....   My feeling is that a few years back the object was to focus on the present members and not growing or acquiring more members or higher dues.....when extremely competent employees can control a board  ( and most bigtime CEO' control their boards) then the direction of the club will naturally go in the direction of the manager...that can be good or it can be bad....it is not wrong for employees to wish to advance in their chosen profession and good ones should....however often the present club will be used as a stepping stone .  I saw a supt recently argue in a meeting that using a triplex greensmower would not be good for his image or reputation....   I have seen club managers use a certain "consultant" knowing that the consultant will be their ticket to the next job because he will take him with him....

Now none of this is saying these employees are wrong or even bad employees....mot of them are really good...but their goal is to get to the top and to do so they have to convincing.....AND as several have said the employee is much sharper than the member/board or president in many of these cases...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
A club with 700 members is always going to pay more for a manager than a club with 350 members, and if a manager is tasked with bringing in new members it's because he's been told to do it.

There are major differences between employees who are upwardly mobile and using a club as a stepping stone and those who are managing upward, i.e. working effectively with their employer.






   

[Tim Martin]

Randy,
No one is saying that any of these employees is incompetent....please understand that...in most cases they are more than competent but they know they can manipulate and control the boards.What I feel happens in many cases is a manager becomes more focused on bringing in more revenues and adding line items that hopefully will bring in members or justify dues increases....if you look at some of the CMAA charts etc it shows salaries of managers based on club revenues...more revenues the more the manger should make....   My feeling is that a few years back the object was to focus on the present members and not growing or acquiring more members or higher dues.....when extremely competent employees can control a board  ( and most bigtime CEO' control their boards) then the direction of the club will naturally go in the direction of the manager...that can be good or it can be bad....it is not wrong for employees to wish to advance in their chosen profession and good ones should....however often the present club will be used as a stepping stone .  I saw a supt recently argue in a meeting that using a triplex greensmower would not be good for his image or reputation....   I have seen club managers use a certain "consultant" knowing that the consultant will be their ticket to the next job because he will take him with him....

Now none of this is saying these employees are wrong or even bad employees....mot of them are really good...but their goal is to get to the top and to do so they have to convincing.....AND as several have said the employee is much sharper than the member/board or president in many of these cases...

Mike-The GM of any private club has a completely different set of marching orders when membership is at less than full capacity. Guys that have put there heart and souls into greens committee positions have seen three or five year capital improvement projects that seemed etched in stone just a couple of years ago get scaled back or scrapped altogether because their clubs are 75 or 100 members light almost over night. It seems to me that as membership continues to decline and this news gets delivered continually at monthly board meetings that employees lose power rather than gain it. I don`t see how this economy gives a leg up to employees looking at their employer as a stepping stone and I have rarely heard of club managers controlling or intimidating club boards.

[Mike_Young]

Randy,
No one is saying that any of these employees is incompetent....please understand that...in most cases they are more than competent but they know they can manipulate and control the boards.What I feel happens in many cases is a manager becomes more focused on bringing in more revenues and adding line items that hopefully will bring in members or justify dues increases....if you look at some of the CMAA charts etc it shows salaries of managers based on club revenues...more revenues the more the manger should make....   My feeling is that a few years back the object was to focus on the present members and not growing or acquiring more members or higher dues.....when extremely competent employees can control a board  ( and most bigtime CEO' control their boards) then the direction of the club will naturally go in the direction of the manager...that can be good or it can be bad....it is not wrong for employees to wish to advance in their chosen profession and good ones should....however often the present club will be used as a stepping stone .  I saw a supt recently argue in a meeting that using a triplex greensmower would not be good for his image or reputation....   I have seen club managers use a certain "consultant" knowing that the consultant will be their ticket to the next job because he will take him with him....

Now none of this is saying these employees are wrong or even bad employees....mot of them are really good...but their goal is to get to the top and to do so they have to convincing.....AND as several have said the employee is much sharper than the member/board or president in many of these cases...

Mike-The GM of any private club has a completely different set of marching orders when membership is at less than full capacity. Guys that have put there heart and souls into greens committee positions have seen three or five year capital improvement projects that seemed etched in stone just a couple of years ago get scaled back or scrapped altogether because their clubs are 75 or 100 members light almost over night. It seems to me that as membership continues to decline and this news gets delivered continually at monthly board meetings that employees lose power rather than gain it. I don`t see how this economy gives a leg up to employees looking at their employer as a stepping stone and I have rarely heard of club managers controlling or intimidating club boards.

Tim,
I am aware of the cutbacks and how they have affected clubs....I stand by my theory....PGA, CMAA and GCSAA have lost touch with the average club or course their member works for....thes times will clean up a lot of the mess....cheers.

[Tim Martin]

Randy,
No one is saying that any of these employees is incompetent....please understand that...in most cases they are more than competent but they know they can manipulate and control the boards.What I feel happens in many cases is a manager becomes more focused on bringing in more revenues and adding line items that hopefully will bring in members or justify dues increases....if you look at some of the CMAA charts etc it shows salaries of managers based on club revenues...more revenues the more the manger should make....   My feeling is that a few years back the object was to focus on the present members and not growing or acquiring more members or higher dues.....when extremely competent employees can control a board  ( and most bigtime CEO' control their boards) then the direction of the club will naturally go in the direction of the manager...that can be good or it can be bad....it is not wrong for employees to wish to advance in their chosen profession and good ones should....however often the present club will be used as a stepping stone .  I saw a supt recently argue in a meeting that using a triplex greensmower would not be good for his image or reputation....   I have seen club managers use a certain "consultant" knowing that the consultant will be their ticket to the next job because he will take him with him....

Now none of this is saying these employees are wrong or even bad employees....mot of them are really good...but their goal is to get to the top and to do so they have to convincing.....AND as several have said the employee is much sharper than the member/board or president in many of these cases...

Mike-The GM of any private club has a completely different set of marching orders when membership is at less than full capacity. Guys that have put there heart and souls into greens committee positions have seen three or five year capital improvement projects that seemed etched in stone just a couple of years ago get scaled back or scrapped altogether because their clubs are 75 or 100 members light almost over night. It seems to me that as membership continues to decline and this news gets delivered continually at monthly board meetings that employees lose power rather than gain it. I don`t see how this economy gives a leg up to employees looking at their employer as a stepping stone and I have rarely heard of club managers controlling or intimidating club boards.

Tim,
I am aware of the cutbacks and how they have affected clubs....I stand by my theory....PGA, CMAA and GCSAA have lost touch with the average club or course their member works for....thes times will clean up a lot of the mess....cheers.

Mike-Thanks for the reply. I don`t doubt that you have seen this happen. I am speaking about clubs in the northeast that I am familiar with and agree that the economy will "clean up a lot of the mess".

[Mike_Young]

Randy,
No one is saying that any of these employees is incompetent....please understand that...in most cases they are more than competent but they know they can manipulate and control the boards.What I feel happens in many cases is a manager becomes more focused on bringing in more revenues and adding line items that hopefully will bring in members or justify dues increases....if you look at some of the CMAA charts etc it shows salaries of managers based on club revenues...more revenues the more the manger should make....   My feeling is that a few years back the object was to focus on the present members and not growing or acquiring more members or higher dues.....when extremely competent employees can control a board  ( and most bigtime CEO' control their boards) then the direction of the club will naturally go in the direction of the manager...that can be good or it can be bad....it is not wrong for employees to wish to advance in their chosen profession and good ones should....however often the present club will be used as a stepping stone .  I saw a supt recently argue in a meeting that using a triplex greensmower would not be good for his image or reputation....   I have seen club managers use a certain "consultant" knowing that the consultant will be their ticket to the next job because he will take him with him....

Now none of this is saying these employees are wrong or even bad employees....mot of them are really good...but their goal is to get to the top and to do so they have to convincing.....AND as several have said the employee is much sharper than the member/board or president in many of these cases...

Mike-The GM of any private club has a completely different set of marching orders when membership is at less than full capacity. Guys that have put there heart and souls into greens committee positions have seen three or five year capital improvement projects that seemed etched in stone just a couple of years ago get scaled back or scrapped altogether because their clubs are 75 or 100 members light almost over night. It seems to me that as membership continues to decline and this news gets delivered continually at monthly board meetings that employees lose power rather than gain it. I don`t see how this economy gives a leg up to employees looking at their employer as a stepping stone and I have rarely heard of club managers controlling or intimidating club boards.

Tim,
I am aware of the cutbacks and how they have affected clubs....I stand by my theory....PGA, CMAA and GCSAA have lost touch with the average club or course their member works for....thes times will clean up a lot of the mess....cheers.

Mike-Thanks for the reply. I don`t doubt that you have seen this happen. I am speaking about clubs in the northeast that I am familiar with and agree that the economy will "clean up a lot of the mess".

Yep...
Happy New Year...

[jeffwarne]

Mike McGuire,
Thanks for understanding "Wuss-consin".  

The premise here is ridiculous and nothing more than a blame-game, with employees as an easy target. Mike, and others, would have us believe that the members of a club are such a bunch of morons that they can be led around by their noses, and have been for many years, by employees who only have their own welfare at heart. Well guess what, if club presidents or board heads/members are so intimidated by their supers, pros or managers then they as a group should be the target, not the employees.
When it was full speed ahead no clubs cared too much if their restaurant lost some money, after all, they had their own little dining enclave away from the hoi-polloi and that's what the club wanted.  When the swimming pool and tennis courts were put in the costs were absorbed, because the club wanted the amenities. When it was full speed ahead and the club wanted greens that stimped at 12 and lush fairways mowed at 3/8" and were told by the super that it was going to cost XXX$, well, it was full speed ahead because that's what the club wanted.  

At the white elephant clubs, the CCFADs, the story is no different. It wasn't an employee who spent millions on behemoth clubhouses sheltering overblown pro shops, sports bars, locker rooms, dining facilities, etc. It wasn't an employee who decided that there should be official greeters in the parking lot, or cart boys or food carts or ten-acre practice ranges with multple pyramids of PROV1's stacked on the line, and it wasn't an employee that spent the big pile of cash needed to hire the name-brand architect.  

This thread wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for an economy that took a huge downturn, and someone looking to blame someone else.

Am not playing a blame game and am not dissing employees....but while this may not be occurring at your club there are plenty of places where this happens on a daily basis....and it happens for the reason you mention....intimidation and plenty of members are led around by their noses....

In my experience , members being led by their noses is a good thing for the club

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,
I am aware of the cutbacks and how they have affected clubs....I stand by my theory....PGA, CMAA and GCSAA have lost touch with the average club or course their member works for....thes times will clean up a lot of the mess....cheers.

Mike,
I think it's the architects who lost touch. Maybe if you guys quit blowing smoke up the backsides of owners so you could charge bigger fees and actually told some of them that they didn't need 8,000 yard courses with all the bells and whistles that have basically done to golf what you are now lamenting we'd all be in a better place.

You ought to quit casting stones on people who actually work for a living.

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