A Rotation of US Open Courses?

[Mike_Cirba]

David Wigler,

Don't be so certain that some members, including one I know very well, didn't stick their neck out on this issue.  It's almost never a good thing to generalize, because I KNOW differently and the issue at the political level is very complex.  

[redanman (Guest)]

MikeIs there another choice between Alicia Keyes and Britney Spears?    

[SPDB]

i've probably spoken to 6-8 members who all seem pretty pleased with the changes. Is that a fair statistical sampling? probably not. And their enthusiasm varies. For instance, one is not too wild about the 5th bunker, but at the same time, is thrilled about the opening of the right route around the quarry into the 16th.

But I have not spoken with anybody who has expressed outrage. Perhaps in time I will. I have not yet witnessed the changes myself, other than through pictures, so I am reserving personal judgment until such time.

[David Wigler]

Mike,

In my mind, I am not generalizing.  I think there is a difference and I will try to illustrate.  Generalization - All Merion members are fools for what they allowed to happen to their golf course.  Belief - All Merion members should be held up to public scrutiny for the foolishness that occurred at their golf course.  I agree that the first statement would be out of line, silly, and inaccurate.  I believe that the second one is true.  Groups must be held collectively responsible for the actions of their members.  All groups have radical factions that the majority of group members are embarrassed by.  In this case, though, it cannot be blamed on a radical faction, since it was implemented.  I am sure your friend is not individually responsible for anything that happened and I will take your word that he was against it, but why is he not collectively responsible?

[TEPaul]

David Wigler:

Basically guys like you and Shivas seem interested in preserving and maintaining your right to free speech--here on the Internet.

That's fine but others of us are interested in architecture, restoration architecture, and doing something that can be constructive to help the furtherance of good restoration. The best way to do that is to be able to deal with the people who are doing it! It's not easy to deal with them when this kind of thing is going on! Did it ever occur to you that the Merion bunker project is only one step in an overall restoration? It would be nice to continue to share access and information on that on-going restoration. It would be nice not to unnecessarily turn people off!

I'm fairly certain you can understand that and I'm becoming fairly certain you really don't give a damn! I do and I've been hoping that Golfclubatlas can be such a conduit, a resource, that we can all share (including Merion's people and their members).

I'm in no way trying to stifle good architectural analysis and critique--and either are they but obviously it has to be somewhat civil to happen.

What they see is that they appear to be compared to the PLO, the NBA and al Qaeda, despite the fact you punctuate your remarks by denying that comparison.

I'm confident that you can understand human nature as well as I can and they can David? The key here is to try to get something positive done not just that you and Shivas can feel you're knowledgeable purist architectural analysts who feel the need to throw blame around.

Anybody can do that--that's easy. The more difficult thing to do is to try to be effective. That's what I want to do and so do some others.

If this site is going to devolve into a discussion of someone's right to say whatever he wants despite being counterproductive as some of the newer contributors seem to be doing then I for one am getting off this site and going somewhere else where I can be more productive with restoration.

I'm sure you'd like to see Golfclubatlas be effective, not the reverse, and I'm sure you can understand what I'm saying here and why I say it!

[Mike_Cirba]

I really don't want to debate this issue.

I would only ask that everyone consider whether we want to be a constructive, positive force in golf architecture, or a destructive, useless, ignored one.

Criticizing architectural features supports the first goal.
Criticizing individuals without any direct knowledge generally supports the second.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

Your post should be copied and pasted onto the opening page of Golfclubatlas.com!

Thanks!

[David Wigler]

Tom,

You are over the top here.  The only generalization I have read is your opening statement "Basically guys like you and Shivas seem interested in preserving and maintaining your right to free speech--here on the Internet.  That's fine but others of us are interested in architecture, restoration architecture, and doing something that can be constructive to help the furtherance of good restoration."  

For me (I will not presume to speak for Shivas), my interest in Merion is preserving what is left of their classic architecture.  In that regard, I think that we share a common interest and our difference is in method.

I am certain of several things: You are more knowledgeable on golf architecture than I am, you are a better writer than I am, and you are more in tune with Merion than I am.  I am also certain that I am the furthest thing possible from an architectural purist.  Furthermore, the last thing I was trying to do was exercise my right to free Internet speech.  If that was the point, than I would hide behind some phony pseudonym so no one could hold me accountable for my thoughts.  

Public scrutiny brings about change!!!  The Canadians have a gold medal today, not because they were the best skaters but because a whole bunch of people publicly called the French cheaters and the ISU a fraud.  For years, people have been trying behind the scenes to quietly effect change.  The subtle approach often does not work in today’s society.  The proof is Merion’s bunkers.  The fear is that more silence will mean more change.  

One of the common generalizations about the difference between old money and new money is the need to show it off.  Merion is acting like Atlantic and not like Cypress and they should be called to the carpet for it.  "Let us destroy history and continuity for the ability to show off our course to the world."  You expect that opinion out of the Rivera’s of the world but not out of the Merion's.  I respect your right to silently hope you can effect change but resent that you feel I do not have the right to publicly call a spade a spade.

[TEPaul]

David:

We very well might share a common interest but we very definitlely do have a difference in method!

I can't argue with your right to call a spade a spade, nor would I argue that you don't have that right--you do--so does Shivas. I can tell you whether I think it's productive or not though!

I can tell you too that what you think you're calling a spade really isn't that. Holding Merion's entire membership accountable sounds simple doesn't it? But you don't understand Merion's membership--you don't know what they think and you don't even know how the golf club works!

Tell me what golf club(s) you belong to and tell me how it works--and tell me how you think Merion compares to your club or even how it should.

We sure do have a difference in method--you're under the impression that holding Merion's entire membership accountable for their bunker project is going to have a positive effect somehow.

I do not agree with you on that at all--and it's likely I won't any time soon because I see just the opposite every time this happens.

Go ahead and call a spade a spade but you're not going to convince me it's productive and you're not going to convince Merion either.

Enough said on this--it's becoming a waste of time.

[Lou Duran]

I share TEP's and MC's concern. There is a tendency at times on this site to ascribe motives to people whom we don't know when we don't agree with their actions.  Whether it is Nicklaus's and Fazio's egos, the (unhealthy) need to display new wealth, or the ignorance of the average golfer, none of these characterizations are helpful in advancing the discourse.  A sure way to alienate someone is to make them feel smaller.  As one who has made some unfortunate statements about American Golf staff on this site, I need to work harder on focusing on the issue and not the person.  As far as Merion goes, it may be unpopular to many on this site, but reasonable people often view the same information and come up with disparate conclusions.  Good information may assist a small minority in convincing the larger membership to at least explore a sympathetic restoration.  That is why I suggested on this site that TEP, who is well versed on the subject and a prolific writer, may be the right person to compile a resource base on restoration.

[TEPaul]

Lou;

I'll try. Where should I start? From the moment the thought of restoration occurs to a club--from the process of taking it through the club and the membership or from the implimentation of the restoration itself?

If I did it, it would not be from the perspective of an architect--because I'm not one--it would be through my own perspective as a member who became interested and the lessons I've learned through what's transpired with my club to date although the restoration has not yet begun!

I think we're getting ready for it quite well though but much more needs to be done. I feel I'm really on the same page with the architect and he with us--so we're ready but there never comes a time to quit thinking--that's for sure!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Forgive me for piling on.

I'm affraid Old David is sometimes prone to wild exagerations and over-statements. I don't think he meant to compare the membership to al Qaeda - I can't think of any US citizen (or group of citizens) who deserves that kind comparison. And most certainly not a gentleman like our own Willie Dow, who I understand put his neck on the line more than once because of us love for his home course. But David has struck a nerve with me before, when he claimed my admittedly modest home course was the worst Dr.MacKenzie golf course remaining. Of course he had only seen two other MacKenzie courses to compare it to -- Cypress Point and Crystal Downs. Tough company.

And then to quote the great moralist Bo Schembechler on cheating.  It appears to me Old Bo is a hypocrite, as he was directing the Michigan athletic program while Bill Frieder was conducting his recruiting shenanigans, of course he probably didn't know....  As a proud Ohio State alumni it makes me want to vomit.

Back to golf.

[Lou Duran]

TEP:

You ask: where to start and from what perspective.  This largely depends on the length of the opinion piece and the amount of time you can devote to it.  For an in-depth discussion, but far short of a text book, your perspective as a long-time student of at least three major facets of the game (architecture, maintenance, and as a good player) is ideal.  Your current involvement with  a major restoration at your club may provide you with a way to introduce the major points structured in part around the experience at Gulph Mills.

A possible rough outline:

I.  Brief Introduction/Discussion of major issues (why modify/
restore/renovate; impact of technology; importance of preserving classic courses).

II.  Differences between redesign, renovation, restoration, and sympathetic restoration and which courses (not necessarily by name) are candidates for each.

III. The Gulph Mills story

IV.  Examples of good and bad restorations, why, and who were the principals (architects, contractors, clients).

[David Wigler]

Tom MacWood,

Does your post have a point?  I do not think I make "wild exagerations and over-statements".  Your post is nothing more than a useless personal attack.  Worse still, you do not even get it right.    

First off, if you took the simple time to read my post, I said "Now clearly, I am not drawing corollaries between the acts of Merion members and Athletes, terrorists or scum but I am saying that a group can and should be held collectively responsible for the actions of its members."  How would anyone consider that a wild statement?  I believe it to be true.  The world, at least since Nuremberg, has generally accepted that individuals can be held accountable for the actions of their groups.  It should be clear that I am defintiely not comparing members at Merion to al Qaeda.  Furthermore, if you read my posts on Scarlet, I have seen three MacKenzie Courses and several Maxwell ones and Scarlet is the weakest.  That was all I said.  As for Bo, he fired Frieder (Risked an NCAA Championship to do so).  Compare this to Woody's punching oponents or Cooper's police blotter of the week club.  Didn't OSU lose an entire basketball recruiting class to prison six or seven years ago?  An Ohio Stater taking a shot at Bo is the epitome of a glass house.  

Tom Paul and I have a disagreement over method.  Tom stated his belief and I stated mine.  As far as I was concerned, that was the end of it.  Your post belittled yourself immensly in my eyes.  Assuming you are literate, at least take the time to read before criticising without any purpose or point.

[David Wigler]

Reread my last couple of posts.  I am going through budgets at work and may not have been in the right mood to be posting.  I am sticking myself in the penalty box until next Tuesday.  Sorry.

[Paul Richards]

David:

While you're in the penalty box you can practice singing OUR version of the Michigan fight song:

Hail, all you mother#$@&*#'s.
Hail, all you big c*$#s@#$^&*.
Hail, hail to Michigan, the Cesspool of the land!
 
Just kiddin'.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

David
Your exact words, "The scarlet course is probably the weakest of Mackenzie's remaining work" and when asked what MacKenzie courses you had played,  "Crystal, Pasatiempo, and U of M". maybe I was too generous, one pure MacKenzie, one MacKenzie/Maxwell and a Maxwell - 1 1/2 MacKenzies.

I don't think the entire Merion membership, and a gentleman like Willie Dow, should be mentioned in the same sentence with Nazi war criminals and al Q. Whatever point you were trying to make, it really isn't necessary to allude to the membership of a golf club with those most heinous groups. My point is that you are prone to exagerations and overstatements, and because of that tendency others shouldn't take your wild comments personally.

To digress, yes Bo did fire Frieder, but only because he accepted the job at ASU, not because he was upset that he had been cheating.  He was upset because he would be cheating elsewhere the following season. Losing an entire recruiting class to prison? Add that to the list of wild exagerations, where do you come up with these fabrications? You are correct about glass-houses, that's the point, using  old Bo as the paragon of virtue -- every major program in the country has there problems, including Michigan and Bo. In fact they may lead the country this season with three members of their football team being arrested - the starting tailback, a starting corner and their star freshman RB being seperately arrested for domestic assault, felonious driving/resisting arrest and drug charges. Of course I'll admit when I was in school that trifecta would've been a damn good night.

[Matthew Petersen]

An old thread that got quite off topic ...


A friend and I were batting around a 10-course US Open rotation. I was surprised that I couldn't find 10 courses that I was fully sold on as realistic venues (realistic meaning venues not currently associated with the PGA, that have shown they can handle the infrastructure requirements, etc).


My list:


Pebble Beach
Shinnecock
Oakmont
Pinehurst
Merion
Winged Foot
Erin Hills


I would love to have Bethpage on this list, but they seem to be a PGA venue now. LACC is a strong candidate but it's hard to put it on the rota when we haven't yet seen how the event will go.


I didn't hate Chambers and would be OK with it getting another chance, but things were not ideal so no rota spot for it. Olympic may be a candidate. It doesn't really get my juices up but it has a decent pedigree and west coast venues are needed. Torrey Pines is a great west coast location but such a yawn of a course and also an annual tour stop. Congressional does nothing for me for an Open (though it's fine for the AT&T event).


Any other really deserving venues?

[Joe Schackman]

If this were the case you would want to give some fair geographic distribution.

I wonder, with that in mind, if USGA could claw back Southern Hills from PGA.

[Phil McDade]

My list:

Pebble Beach
Shinnecock
Oakmont
Pinehurst
Merion
Winged Foot
Erin Hills

I would love to have Bethpage on this list, but they seem to be a PGA venue now. LACC is a strong candidate but it's hard to put it on the rota when we haven't yet seen how the event will go.

I didn't hate Chambers and would be OK with it getting another chance, but things were not ideal so no rota spot for it. Olympic may be a candidate. It doesn't really get my juices up but it has a decent pedigree and west coast venues are needed. Torrey Pines is a great west coast location but such a yawn of a course and also an annual tour stop. Congressional does nothing for me for an Open (though it's fine for the AT&T event).


Any other really deserving venues?

Baltusrol (7), Oakland Hills (6), Cherry Hills (3), Inverness (4), TCC (3, with another in 2022), Oak Hill (3), and Medinah (3) have all held multiple U.S. Opens. To me, Oakland Hills might be the best bet to lure another one -- lot of history there w/ Hogan. Medinah struck me as a potential venue when I went around it for the Ryder Cup.


After that? Tough to pin-point any real obvious candidates. I'd argue Whistling Straits in Wisconsin might be a good candidate, but it's been tied to the PGA lately and it might be odd for the USGA to select two courses within 60 miles of each other.


 

[John Kavanaugh]

Its not the US Oldpen...Modern courses are being built today that given 20 years of maturity will be better tests than stretched out museums.  When Tommy turns 60 I'm not sure his heart will be able to take many more Riviera's.

Looks like somebody saw into the future.

[Carl Rogers]

Let's say a 10 year period as a frame of reference .... 10 clubs
How many in the Permanent Rota?  Why have a Permanent Rota?  To link the past with the present and the future.
Let's say 7 in the Permanent Rota and 3  in the Transient (out of the box) category to be determined, different in each decade.
The Permanent Rota:
              Shinnecock Hills, Wing Foot West, Pebble Beach, Oakmont, Pinehurst No 2, Oakland Hills, Congressional (do not 
               like the course, but it is in the nations capital, give Doak/Coore/Hanse 30 million to re-do it)
The Transient group, in the next decade, could be:
              - a Pete Dye Course
              - a Merion Type of course
              - a Coore/Doak/Hanse course not yet started
              - something very atypical if not outright quirky, get Lester George to do it
              - or even something more middle of the road like Oak Hill

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,


Pebble Beach
Shinnecock
Oakmont
Pinehurst
Merion
Winged Foot
Erin Hills


That seems to be quite presumptive to put EH on the list after just one Open that many felt was a failure/disappointment.  I would think it would need a few more goes before it would join the other provens you have on there...

[Cliff Hamm]

By far I enjoy the US Open best when held at 'traditional' clubs.  I might suggest a tiered system of once every 10 years, 15 years and 20 years.


10 years:


Shinnecock
Winged Foot
Oakmont
Pebble Beach
Pinehurst


15 years (bring back some of the courses that have gone the PGA route, among others, but have great history):


Oak Hill
Baltusrol
Medinah
Congressional
Olympic
Bethpage
Merion
Oakland Hills
TCC
Cherry Hills ?


Perhaps every 20 years or so experiment, but should by far be the exception.


This especially makes sense if the PGA moves to May.  May is not the time to play a major in the northeast.  That is why I also left off Southern Hills as it would fit the PGA in May.  The PGA could also emphasize newer courses rather than those 'discarded' by the USGA.

[David Wuthrich]

I like the 10 and 15 year rota idea:


Here are my thoughts:


10 years:
Shinnecock
Winged Foot
Oakmont
Pebble Beach
Pinehurst #2

15 years

Oak Hill
Baltusrol
Medinah #3
Olympic
Bethpage Black
Merion
Oakland Hills
Brookline
Cherry Hills
LACC


That would be a perfect 20 year plan.