[David Wigler]

MarkP,

The Golf Club is one of my five favorite golf courses in the country.  Furthermore, I truly believe Dye deserves to be the first modern architect to get an Open and you could argue either TGC or PDGC as his finest work.  I picked Whistling Straits because of the logistics involved in an Open.  I have only played TGC twice, so I could be wrong, but I could not picture where you would put 100 corporate tents, parking for 25,000, and 30,000 spectators.  US Open courses need wide open property for traffic flow, etc.  Tom Fazio certainly designed an Open caliber golf course at Victoria National but I did not list it for the same reasons.

Jim,

No slight intended on Gene Littler.  As you know, I am younger and my view of Littler has always been the same view I had of Larry Holmes in boxing.  It was hard to tell how great he was, given whom he was playing against.  If Littler had his run ten years earlier or later, history might be much kinder to his memory (In a similar vein, I think Gene Sarazan suffered the same fate).

SPDB,

Hazeltine  ?  Can't we just put that boring piece of averageness to bed?  I know John Conley has a special place in his heart for it but I cannot figure out why.  Earlier I expressed my opinion of Oakland Hills.  I think Hazeltine makes Oakland Hills look like Pine Valley.  Just my opinion.

[Matt_Ward]

For what it's worth -- the absolute must go to's ...

Shinnecock Hills
Peeble Beach
Pinehurst #2

The let's go to because they still have it ...

The Olympic Club (Lake)
Winged Foot (West)
Oakmont
The Country Club

Look to the following and use as long as they merit it ...

Olympia Fields (North)
Southern Hills
Bethpage (Black)
Whistling Straits (Straits Course) / 04 PGA will say plenty?

*Personal wish list ...

Merion (East) ... ditto Riviera.
Bandon Dunes (yes, it's remote but why not?)
A mountain time zone site ... how about The GC at Thanksgiving Point, just south of Salt Lake?

The drop list ...

Medinah (more makeovers than Roseann Barr)
Oakland Hills (agreed the course lacks real juice)
Congressional (why not opt for Bulle Rock?)
Cherry Hills (enough already ... see above)

Amazing thing -- no one mentioned a seven-time site ... Baltusrol? Where does that fit it? Does it? One last question --does Torrey Pines / South has what it takes? But, if not Riviera then is Torrey the only SoCal site?

[wsmorrison]

Shivas has an interesting point.  What about historical status for golf courses?  In Philadelphia we were able to keep an outstanding Maxfield Parrish/Tiffany mural out of a casino's (Steve Wynne) hands by getting it registered as an historical object.  Great works of art should remain intact or at least difficult to alter.  I feel sorry for Riviera members and other clubs that see gross distortions to their courses.  Of course, regulations beget complications but there should be a high measure of inertia to overcome that prevents significant alterations.

[spdb1]

Shivas -
Fazio has already come to, and left Merion. And his pricetag was $8 zillion cheaper than you estimated. And as for leaving the members with a disaster, that seems to have been avoided as most members I speak with are pleased with the work done.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Also I now feel a little sheepish about my TCC comment in light of this afternoon's announcement.

[TEPaul]

An Open at Pine Valley, Cypress or NGLA? Forget it--wouldn't even come close to being considered by any of those clubs.

At the rate things seem to be going Fernandina Municipal might not be a bad idea for 2010. At least it should be scheduled in as a serious backup. Faz/MacDonald could have a field day down there and if anyone got upset Ms M's press machine could say anything it wanted and they'd buy it! She  could always welcome home the Timaquan Indians--that'd be a nice touch!

[John_Conley]

SPDB,

Hazeltine  ?  Can't we just put that boring piece of averageness to bed?  I know John Conley has a special place in his heart for it but I cannot figure out why.  Earlier I expressed my opinion of Oakland Hills.  I think Hazeltine makes Oakland Hills look like Pine Valley.  Just my opinion.

Wiggles:

You don't know me THAT well, obviously!

[Mike_Cirba]

SPDB1,

Yes, Fazio and Macdonald & Co have already come and gone from Merion.  I understand the work was pro bono.  They must have figured that things are getting tough financially on the Main Line, because I can't think of any other reasons for doing charity work in such a well-heeled environment.  

In that time, about 8 months, all 100+ bunkers were completely dug up and rebuilt to modern standards and a manicured,  look.  They now have the look of many other modern courses in the area.

Where the sand previously was flashed up under the hairy lips, leading to the nickname "white faces", the faces are now thick bluegrass.  Where they once were filled with love grass, gorse, and other inconsistent, hazardous plantings, they are now clean as a baby's cheek.  Where they were once angled and irregularly inconsistent on the bottom, they are now flat bottomed with totally consistent sand.  Where they once blended naturally into their surrounds, as if they were always there, it is now clear that they are in fact, very artifical "playing surfaces", clearly and sharply delineated with more blue grass surrounds and even artifical mounds.  Yes,they should be much "fairer" to the membership.  

Isn't progress a wonderful thing?  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

The Golf Club's bylaws prevent it from ever hosting a tournament.

Based on the effect hosting a US Open has on a courses architectural integrity I would propose a rota of Valhalla, Torrey Pines, East Lake, Medinah, Oakland Hills (already screwed up), Champions, Congressional and Oak Hill (see Oakland Hills). I was looking for a course in the NY/NJ and Phila areas, but I have too much repsect for both.

[spdb1]

Mike -

Like I said, a number of the members I have spoken with our pleased, and they indicate to me that they are not the minority.

So here is a question I pose to you, if this indeed is the case, that a restoration is done and the members are pleased, the job can only be considered a success, no?

[corey miller]

regardless of the quality of the renovation/restoration work done, I think it would be very rare for a member at a private club to object because:

    1. Politics
    2. Nobody likes to admit being "ripped-off"
    3. Most overstate the architecural merits of their home club though few know much about archticture anyway
    4. Who would want to admit to ruining a wonderful piece of art?
    5. Who wants to play alone on the weekends?

much of the opinion on these project is being led by the architects doing the work, and a media who does not know any better.  Would love to have Geoff Shakelord interview Tom Fazio!!!
    

[Justin Zook]

Do it Geoff!  Do it!  Tear 'im up!  Make Fazio go home cryin to his mommy!  In all seriousness, why is it that a 17 year old has more reverence than a guy 3 times my age?  Is he that egocentric and self centered that he would rip up a work of art just to put his name on it?  If this is indeed the case, we should place those who fit into this category in mental institutions and try to rehabilitate them.  Anyway, I agree entirely with the idea of making golf courses "historical sites".  What better way of protecting the some of the most amazing golf courses in exhistence.

[John_McMillan]

Tom MacWood -

From what I've heard about The Golf Club's by-laws, it theoretically "could" host a US Open.  The by-laws prohibit any tournament in which all TGC members could not participate.  All  the USGA has to do is give them special exemptions into the Open, and the tournament is theirs

[TEPaul]

As for the Merion bunkers, it's very difficult for us to estimate what the membership thinks of them, so we probably shouldn't. I've probably talked with about ten or so and there are some differences of opinion but what does Merion have in membership, probably over 500!?

As for the new bunkers being harder or easier or the same as the old ones, the consensus seems to be overwhelmingly that these ones are harder to play. Why? Because generally they're a lot deeper than the old ones. Reason being the heights of the surrounds were probably left the same but the bases are lower. I suppose it's possible that some of the inclines on some faces may be a bit different too which if you think about it could make them play deeper or steeper or whatever you choose to call that alteration (if it exists). I suppose that phenomenon may be made possible with the new use of a better sand securing product know as bunker-wol. If you think about it I guess it's possible to hold sand at a steeper angle on a bunker face thereby making a potential play closer to a steeper face, if you know what I mean! They're has been some concern too not just about the difficulty of some members playing their ball out of some of the bunkers but the difficulty of getting themselves in and out of the bunkers too.

Of course the surrounds don't look the same as the old ones and that's probably the big issue here on this website. Actually the surrounds do look quiet similar if viewed from 2000 ft above the course but not on the ground from golfer eye level.

That fact is frankly something I think sould be instructive for all of us who are interested in architecture and particularly restoration. Often committees and architects and contractors are armed with historic aerials and some very good ones and they probably do match new bunkers quite well with what they see on those historic aerials from 2000ft. Trouble is all too often they forget about what they looked like on the ground either in historic photos or prior to restoration (rennovation) and basically forget to match or can't match that prior look to what they end up doing.

And afterall how many golfers look a bunker or play from one from 2000ft and how many golfers look at a bunker from on  ground eye level and play from them down there too?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

John
No that's thinking outside the box.

SPDB
The members of Scioto were pleased with what Dick Wilson performed at Scioto -- as an admirer of Ross, in my opinion it was tragic. I thought this site attempted to identify the best of the best in golf architecture, not necessarily relying on public opinion. Most Americans prefer White Zinfandel, does that mean it is the best wine or the most successful wine - maybe so and McDonalds is probably the best restuarant, but I've tasted better and I personally think it is crap. As a student/afficionado of golf architecture, is it important what the members of Merion (as if they are a single like-minded group) think about the changes or do you base your opinion on your own expertise/findings?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Sorry, John, that should be ' Now that is thinking outside the box.'

[TEPaul]

Historically there have been some entries in the US Open that apparently were inexplicable! One appears to have been a doctor--I believe he was from S. America---who somehow was offered an Open entry. His story was mentioned in the Hannigan/Watson rules book.

As I recall he wasn't clear in the slightest why he was  offered the entry but he entered and on the first tee he was some kind of nervous. He was paired with two young touring pros who weren't all that relaxed themselves and this doctor hits his tee shot on the first hole, it hits a tree near the tee box and comes to rest behind the tee markers.

One of the young touring pros is introduced next and he says to the doctor; "Sir is it my honor or are you away?"

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

You make a very good point about the huge difference between aerial views and ground level views of bunkers.  And, I certainly don't want to risk beating a dead horse here, but the whole travesty with Riviera's "restoration" just reopened old wounds.  I must admit, I'm starting to CRINGE when I hear that word bandied about by architects and clubs who don't have a clue and use that word to justify and spin doing whatever it is they want to do....in fact, I had a discussion not long ago with the brother in law of a lower-level associate of that organization who proudly insisted that his relative was really the guy responsible for the "redesign" of Merion.

I don't even find real fault with the clubs, to be honest.  After all, what more can they do than hire someone who general wisdom insists is the best in their field?  They should reasonably assume that they are getting expert opinions and quality work.  Perhaps they should do more homework, or even be as studious about architecture as many of us, but is that a realistic expectation??  Especially when the membership numbers in the 500s, and everyone is partly driven by name recognition?

And yes, the bunkers at Merion do seem to be slightly deeper in some cases.  However, I would argue that this is only a deterrent to the worst bunker players, and hardly a concern for the type of player that this work was done to attract...the touring professional.

Especially when one considers that the inconsistency and hazardous nature of the original bunkers were primarily responsible for the fate of one Jack Nicklaus in the 71 Open, when he repeatedly either failed to get up and down from them, and in some cases required multiple shots to even get out.

The new style bunkers, while deeper, are also much more consistent and fair.  Even forgetting the questionable aesthetic factors completely, I can't imagine that they improve the challenge of the course for the better player, whatsoever.  

    

[David Wigler]

John,

My bad.  I guess I thought I remembered you defending it somewhere.  From your comment, I am now guessing that we agree.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Just looked at this thread for the first time.  Just busting your chops, Shivas, but you asked where all of the midwest courses were when Oakland Hills and Southern Hills had been mentioned already.  

[John_Conley]

John,

My bad.  I guess I thought I remembered you defending it somewhere.  From your comment, I am now guessing that we agree.

Wiggles:

It is a very worthy tournament course, as evidenced by U.S. Opens won by Tony Jacklin, Hollis Stacy (who won THREE of them!), and Payne Stewart.  The NCAAs were won by Luke Donald, if memory serves.

I just feel that we have better courses where I'm from.  

Surprisingly, I think Hazeltine's best holes are different from the ones that get everyone's attention.  I like #6, #8, and #10 best.

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

You said:

"Common knowledge rarely constitutes knowledge. If the Merion members think the bunkers are wonderful, they probably aren't--at least from an architectural perspective."

Would it be accurate in your mind to say if the Merion members don't think the bunkers are wonderful, then they probably are--at least from an architectural perspective?

It would also be worthwhile finding out if you know what the Merion members think about the bunkers and if so how you know what they think.

I would suggest you have no idea what they think about those bunkers and therefore you should do your best to keep ludicrous remarks like that to yourself, at the very least.

Have you noticed that we're trying to keep gratuitous personal attacks off this website and that we're trying to stick to architecture period? Somehow making critical remarks of an entire membership doesn't seem the best way to do that.

Do you know any Merion members? If the answer is no, then I'm gonna tell you with no compunction whatsoever that you have an attitude about you that I for one think has no place on the discussion group!

Comment on the Merion's bunkers or Merion's architecture if you know anything about it but do us all a favor and keep Merion's  membership out of your comments.

[Stan Dodd]

What is the fixation with Torrey Pines?  I have played 15+ times and I don't get it.  This course is an unworthy muni that is a joke to compare with SH, PB, Oakmont, TCC.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Shivas,
Knowing a thing or two about Merion members, I can only say that Tom is correct in his way of saying don't associate all of them as being in total agreement, and therefore to blame.

It is to my understanding that Bill Greenwood had onlythe best of intentions when he originally headed this so called rebuilding project, and while he and I both may not agree of its validity to its finished state--I still respect the fact that he was placed in one of the most difficult positions with everyone and his brother firing away at him. Including me.

There are other Merion members that I would only think the highest of praises of, after all, it wasn't up until the last two and a half years that the club changed so much in so little time. A simple visit to Merion's clubhouse would prove this--these people know their history of their fabled club, and it is a total salute to them that they kept it as pure for as long as they did.

Merions faults lie inthe fact that when you  have a committee wanting to further their history and statur of the club by entertaining the notion of bringing in a four-day carnival of golfs modern greatest, you are going to have a wide variety of opinions both good and bad. It isn't the total memberships fault. That blame can go to the people setting the rules of holding such a party--The USGA.

The only excuse is that Time and Technology caught up with the club, and certainly there is only one source to blame for that--the people that make the rules that govern and protect the game. they were the ones that were essentially asleep at the wheel as commericialism has run amuck, and sweeped up the game to the point that Ely Callaway is a placed in diety status as a modern golf hero.

Ultimately, what I'm saying, as Merion's most fervent critic for the damage that has been done (In attempts to make them realize what they had and the wrong direction that they were taking) blame the gross national product for its demise. It all comes down to dollars and sense. (cents)

Thats what happens when you have a golf ball that is out of control and an association that doesn't even understand the most simplest of logic to bring it all back in.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

I know what you were trying to say.  I also know that you meant no particular disrespect to any of the Merion membership individually, much less collectively.

I also know that none of us mean to offend any club or membership with our comments about the golf courses we discuss; unfortunately, it's impossible to effectively criticize golf architecture without someone with a vested interest taking offense.  It goes with the territory, and Tom Paul was simply advising you to be judicious in how you state things, lest your important and valid message might be distorted and lost on those who would immediately feel defensive and unfairly wounded.  The more we discuss the courses themselves and their architecture and the less we talk about people and personalities, the more effective and "heard" our message might be, is what I'm sure he is telling you.

I think your comment was based on the simple fact that sometimes trying to please everyone in life leads to lowest common denominator solutions.  If everything were judged on popularity, then Britney Spears would be a better artist than Alicia Keyes.  

[David Wigler]

Mike,

Give me Britney Spears (No need to finish the thought, just give me Britney Spears  ) over Alicia Keys any day of the week.

Shivas,

I agree with you completely and would have written it yesterday if I hadn't been in meetings.  There is not one drop of a need to apologize.  I do not know any players in the NBA and yet I was very comfortable calling them greedy bastards during the last players strike.  I do not know a single person in the PLO and yet I am comfortable calling them terrorists.  I do not know a single person in al Qaeda and yet I am comfortable calling them murderous assholes that deserve death.  Now clearly, I am not drawing corollaries between the acts of Merion members and Athletes, terrorists or scum but I am saying that a group can and should be held collectively responsible for the actions of its members.  I am sure Merion has some members who are great guys and are as upset at what happened as many of the writers on this site, but know what: they let it happen!!!!  It is just that simple.  You have every right to call them to the carpet for their decision and acquiescence.  Remind me where I can read the Merion member's writings who took the unpopular stand and fought change like Gib did at Olympic or Geoff Childs is at Yale.  Remind me where I can see one of them risking popular opinion to stop an atrocity from being commissioned on their course.  Following the lemmings into the sea does not absolve you of blame because you weren't the first one to jump.  

I remember my favorite Bo Schembechler quote of all time.  Bo was being asked about Mike White (Illinois coach) after he was finally caught cheating and blamed the alumni, his assistant coaches, the counselors, his dog and everyone else but himself.  Schembechler was asked what he thought of White's defense and said:  "If he knew what was going on, he is a cheating son of a bitch and should be fired.  If he didn't know what was going on, he is an incompetent son of a bitch and should be fired."  Every Merion member should be held up to the mirror of history and asked was it worth it?  So that you could suck up to the USGA, was it worth trading your golf course?  They deserve the criticism.  It is that simple in my mind.  

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