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wsmorrison

A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« on: February 14, 2002, 06:28:36 PM »
If there existed a rotation of 8 or so courses for the US Open to be played on, similar to The Open, what courses would you like to be on such a rota?  Would this be a good thing for US golf?    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2002, 06:41:30 PM »
Just alternate Shinnecock and Pebble.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2002, 06:51:20 PM »
Please find one place in the south to have the open even if Pinehurst 2
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Justin Zook

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2002, 10:03:41 PM »
Hey there Mr Morrison!  If I were to compile a list of courses that the US Open would only be played on, I would first of all have to figure out what I was looking for.  I would try to find a variety of courses.  One thing that makes these courses different is whether or not they stress length or shot placement off the tee.  While I would never include Harbour Town on my list, that course, which is short but tight, favors shot placement more than it does length.  I may be wrong about the length now.  The last time I checked, it was under 7,000, but it seems every course is lengthening these days.  A course like Oakmont, would emphasize length off the tee over shot placement.  Another thing I would look at are the green complexes.  At Bethpage, we will see green complexes that are very different than those of Pinehurst in 2005.  I think a run up shot at Pinehurst would be much more effective with the false fronts, than it would be at the Black course.  One requirement that all courses must have are that in order for a player to be successful there, the course must be subtle, where only local knowledge and good golf can conquer. Another requirement is that the course must be as natural looking as possible, and have few artificial looking features.  Now to attempt a list of 10 courses that I feel should be included in this hypothetical rotation.

1-Pine Valley-(I know about the infrastructure problems with crowds and parking, but a guy can hope)
2-Shinnecock
3-Winged Foot
4-Cypress Point
5-Merion
6-Bethpage Black
7-Sand Hills
8-Pebble Beach
9-Pinehurst #2
10-Brookline

This is really quite a difficult thing to narrow down to even 10.  I left out NGLA, but I probably should have put it in.  I think the list would eventually grow to the point where it wouldn't serve any purpose to have a rotation.  We would have to make a cut-off point say around 15 at absolute most.  Then again, that might even be too much.  I think this would be a good thing for golf course design.  People would naturally wonder why a certain course should be in the rotation, and another not.  They will learn about what makes those courses unique.  The average golfer, who certainly used to be interested in just playing the game, would develop an eye to what is good and bad about the courses they play and would learn to appreciate the really good tracts they've played, and they would appreciate the hidden gem.  Ultimately I think it would be a good thing for the game.  More spectacular scenery, better golf, higher standard for play, and a smarter public who knows the differece between good and bad design.  To sum up: I don't think its a bad idea.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2002, 10:06:49 PM »
Pebble Beach
Shinnecock Hills
Merion
Cypress Point
Pacific Dunes (too remote?)
Winged Foot
Pinehurst #2
NGLA
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2002, 11:38:46 PM »
Is there a problem with what the USGA has done?

Pinehurst
Pebble Beach
Shinnecock
Torrey Pines
Bethpage
Olympic
Oak Hill
Oakmont
Oakland Hills
etc...

My thesis has been that course set up is more important than venue.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2002, 01:09:09 AM »
Can I ask a question?  Why is NGLA not considered as an Open course?

I always heard that it was because of too many blind shots and all round quirkiness.  Is this the case?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2002, 01:53:45 AM »
Tom:

The quirky "old fashionedness", (lack of) length and lack of infrastructure and crowd facilities makes National better suited to a Walker Cup.  Like Los Angeles Country Club, National isn't interested.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2002, 03:52:30 AM »
Hey, am I the only midwestern guy here? ???

How about Medinah and Olympia Fields?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Chris_Clouser

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2002, 04:12:14 AM »
If I were to make a list I would be tempted to make it a bunch of courses that I wouldn't want to see ruined, so courses like Merion, Riviera and the like wouldn't even come close.  But here is a list

Pebble Beach
Olympic
Southern Hills
Pinehurst
Oakland Hills
Winged Foot
Oakmont
Shinnecock Hills

All of them are different and it has good geographic balance.  There are enough courses willing to host the US Open, to not have to ruin places like NGLA, Pine Valley and Cypress Point.

Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2002, 04:21:43 AM »
I think there is a problem with the USGA coming in and making changes to courses, sometimes drastically so, in the name of trying to make the top fraction of a percentile struggle with par.  It is the score relative to the field that wins competitions.  What's wrong with that?  Too many already great courses sacrifice too much history and art in the quest of gaining a championship.  

The stretching, narrowing, rebunkering, and other techniques certainly impacts the redesign of existing courses  and the design of new courses for those clubs wishing to be able to enter the limelight.  I'd rather change technology than the true underpinning of the game, the courses.  

Maybe it is the PGA that should have a rotation of courses more so than the US Open, but in my mind courses should evolve slowly, if at all, and not be dramatically mutated.  Classic courses should not subordinate their membership for fame, they should honor their heritage more and be comfortable in guardianship.  I guess it just reflects the times we live in.  I'm for hard and fast fairways and greens (especially for championships) and using the contours more.   I'd rather watch the ball hit and roll and enjoy a bit of unpredictability than seeing a little ball on an arched trajectory against the background sky.  The pros all want perfect courses (so do members after seeing it on TV) and perfect results.  Forget it!  That's not life and it shouldn't be golf.  Bring the ground into play more.  I think Lincoln's piece in the feature interview is dead on!  Reduce distance standards in the ball and we won't need to tamper with courses as they were intended.

If there is to be a rotation, I think we should take geography into account and bring the championships to representative areas of the country.  Sorry Zook, have to take into account the ability to hold and Open.  Still haven't figured it out but these should be on it:

Shinnecock Hills
Pebble Beach
Pinehurst #2
The Country Club in Brookline

Establish limits to the ball and we're talking

Merion
Cypress Point
Cherry Hills
NGLA

Perhaps not my final list, though.  Gotta go to work and I ran out of time.

Regards,
Wayne

Quote
Is there a problem with what the USGA has done?

Pinehurst
Pebble Beach
Shinnecock
Torrey Pines
Bethpage
Olympic
Oak Hill
Oakmont
Oakland Hills
etc...

My thesis has been that course set up is more important than venue.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2002, 04:56:21 AM »
Again, where are the midwestern courses?
 :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Chris_Clouser

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2002, 05:07:37 AM »
Paul,

I would say Oakland Hills is in the Midwest.  I personally have only seen Medinah of the courses that may be of Open caliber in Chicago and OH is a better course.  Hazeltine is probably more suited for the PGA.  But that's my opinion.

Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2002, 05:16:17 AM »
John and Chris,

I am a Michigan boy, so it makes me happy that you both listed Oakland Hills, but do you really think it is worthy?  If Ben Hogan doesn't win and call it the monster, I would think it would have been dropped long ago.  Since RTJ aborted the course, the winners (Except Hogan) have been Gene Littler (1961), Andy North (1985) and Steve Jones (1996).  It is not as this course brings out the best the PGA has to offer.  Furthermore, the course has very little charm.  Go down the road to Franklin Hills and see how wonderful it is and then imagine Franklin on a vastly superior piece of land and you can feel what Oakland must have been before they allowed RTJ and recently Art Hills to butcher it into mediocrity (O.K. not mediocrity but not more than a 7 - 7 1/2).  After playing enough classic courses to know, I would far prefer the Open on Shinnecock, Olympic, Pebble Beach, Merion (As a par 68 - why not), Oakmont, and Whistling Straits.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

JakaB

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2002, 05:59:52 AM »
Its not the US Oldpen...Modern courses are being built today that given 20 years of maturity will be better tests than stretched out museums.  When Tommy turns 60 I'm not sure his heart will be able to take many more Riviera's.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2002, 06:02:58 AM »
I have told anybody that will listen to me, that I think the best format should be for the US Open to be played on classic courses, and for the PGA to visit the best newer (using World War II, as the line of demarcation) designs.

I think there has to be something to distinguish these two tournaments. The lines become blurred when you play at the same venues (WF, Medinah), and it is for this reason that i think the PGA Champs is the forgotten major. In that vein, I would nominate these courses for each rota w/6 apiece

USOPEN

Pebble
Shinnecock
Winged Foot
TCC
Oakmont
Pinehurst

PGA

Whistling Straits
Sand Hills
Bandon
Hazeltine
Kiawah
Butler Nat'l/Cog Hill (sorry, broke my own rules  :P )

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

wsmorrison

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2002, 06:04:59 AM »
Sorry, Paul Richards.  I have yet to play any courses in the midwestern region.  I am correcting that this spring and summer.  I am playing Sand Hills as well as Flynn's Cherry Hills, Glen View, Elyria, and other courses.  I am hoping to see Crystal Downs and Oakland Hills.  My boss belongs to Medinah and Butler National, so while in Chicago I'll try to play these as well.  I'm sure this will change my list.  No slight intended, just uninformed.

I also think if there was a rotation, once every cycle a different course can get the nod to keep things fresh.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

markP

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2002, 06:20:09 AM »
What about The Golf Club in Ohio????
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2002, 06:25:23 AM »
David:

I have no opinion to offer on Oakland Hills but I must defend Geniel Gene "the Machine" Littler. In 1961 there were very, very few players in the world better than Littler. Hogan and Snead were over the hill and Nicklaus and Player were not quite the great stars they would become. Palmer and Casper were probably the only two players I  can think of who were consistantly better than Gene. At least, that's how I remember it. He certainly was widely recognized as having the sweatest swing in the game at the time. He may not be better remembered today because a bout with cancer derailed the latter part of his career on the regular tour. In any case, he does not deserve to be grouped with North and Jones.

Now don't go pulling out any stats to prove me wrong!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

GeoffreyChilds

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2002, 06:34:06 AM »
Have we  not learned?  But for one exception lets leave the classics OFF the US Open rota so they can be preserved AFTER RESTORATION.

Give them Shinnecock Hills once every 5-10 years (untouched) just to show them greatness.

Then lets send the show around the country to

Pebble Beach
Cog Hill #4
Whistling Straits
Ocean Forrest
Kiawah Island Ocean Course
Torrey Pines
Pumpkin Ridge
Bethpage Black
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Perrella

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2002, 06:55:22 AM »

  Markp

  You just beat me to the punch with The Golf Club. This would be a great venue for the open but I'm sure the members are not interested.

              Paul
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2002, 07:09:30 AM »
I'm with Gene here.  There's really not much need to hold it anywhere other than Shinnecock and Pebble.  But ok, people in other parts of the country do want to see this in person... so how about something like this:

PB/SH/Pinehurst/PB/SH/Oakmont/PB/SH/Southern Hills....

IE, put it somewhere other than these two perfect venues every three years.  Other courses near NY and NorCal get aced out of the rota.  Olympic and Winged Foot, etc. can find other ways to get on the media scene should they desire (USAm, PGA, etc.)

Of course this is too perfect and logical to ever actually happen, and I doubt SH and PB really would WANT to have it this often, but dare to dream....

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert_Walker

Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2002, 07:13:48 AM »
I do not see a need to limit the number of venues for the OPEN. The British Open has a more limited list of options because of the physical size of the country. I, like everyone else in this DG, would like to see The OPEN return to Merion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2002, 07:14:57 AM »
Shinnecock is my favorite for the Open.
One not mentioned that could do the job may be C&C's Cuscowilla, and I'll mention it before Mike gets on the Ocean Course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Rotation of US Open Courses?
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2002, 07:19:56 AM »
i really don't think you can leave TCC out of this. Now having been the site of arguably the two greatest moments in this country's. This venue will now be a sentimental favorite, and i think the USGA will looking to capitalize on this in the years to come.

Or maybe it should just host Junior Amateur's in the hopes that more kids gets turned on to architecture the way Crenshaw did when he played in the '68 juniors. That way we can get the pros on our side when talk of renovations to classic courses comes to the fore.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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