[Ally Mcintosh]

I seem to look for any twist on the "dramatic dunes versus flatter ground" topic in starting my threads these days. Anyway, the other thread and the talk of Ballybunion New has me starting this one.

What are the holes that have penal (or excessively penal) approach shots to green sites on links courses? I'm looking for greens sites positioned in tricky dune formations, not surrounded by streams and OOB etc...

Example:

12th at Tralee (and the 13th for that matter)

[Jamie Barber]

Two from East Kent

1st Dunes at Prince's. A long par 4 (470+ from the tips) to a long, thin saddle-back green on what is actually a very low lying dune, not more than 3 feet elevation. The issue is that the landing area is small and usually, for mere mortals, you are hitting a long club in. You need a really pure shot to hold the green.

16th Deal. A blind shot in and very hard to get it close? It's one of those where you can be quite close in 2, not really hit a bad shot but still don't make a 5.

These are the pics from Sean Arble's excellent "KENT KALEIDOSCOPE" thread of July 2010:
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/PRINCES%20GC/071.jpg?t=1278427288
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff114/seanrobertarble/ROYAL%20CINQUE%20PORTS%20GC/029-Copy.jpg?t=1278412682

[Scott Warren]

Two great examples, Jamie. Of course 1 Dunes at Prince's is an easy par, as you may remember!

2 at Dornoch?

5 and 7 at Rye?

15 at Golspie?

13 at North Berwick West Links?

[Jamie Barber]

Two great examples, Jamie. Of course 1 Dunes at Prince's is an easy par, as you may remember!

I was waiting for that Merry Xmas Scott. Think of us as you swelter in the Aussie summer!

[Scott Warren]

Arsiest. Flukiest. Par. Ever.



Merry Christmas mate, it's 20 degrees at 9pm and I am toasting you all stuck in the snow with a cold beer!

[James Boon]

Ally,

How about 14 at Royal Portush? As I'm sure most people will know its a pretty long par 3 over a deep chasm. I'm sure its not called "Calamity Corner" for nothing?

Merry Christmas to anyone stuck in the snow or unable to play golf in the bleak mid winter. As for anyone at 20 degrees or so... well Merry Christmas to them as well! 

Cheers,

James

[Mark Pearce]

13 at Silloth is positioned on a dune ridge.  Miss either side and getting up and down in 3 is no gimme, up and down in 2 is a miracle.

How about 4 at Rye?  OK, the tee shot is famously difficult but hitting that green is still tough and missing leaves a difficult save.

[Niall C]

Mark

You could equally have said the 3rd and 4th at Silloth as well. The 3rd is usually a mid iron to fairway wood approach for me, playing to a shelfed green with a decided slope. Right, left or long and you've got a difficult chip. Even short is not an easy chip.

The fourth is even harder in my opinion even though its a short iron approach. The fall offs on either side mean missing left or right is likely to be a costly error.

Niall

[Doug Siebert]

Two great examples, Jamie. Of course 1 Dunes at Prince's is an easy par, as you may remember!

2 at Dornoch?

5 and 7 at Rye?

15 at Golspie?

13 at North Berwick West Links?

The first at North Berwick can be rather tricky as well since you're not warmed up yet

[Pete_Pittock]

Postage Stamp at Royal Troon.
#16 at North Berwick-West
Foxy at Dornoch.

[Tom_Doak]

Is there a difference between "difficult" and "penal" in this thread?  I would say that Foxy has a difficult green site, but hardly a penal one.  The Postage Stamp, by contrast, is just brutal if you miss it.

Likewise, the 13th at North Berwick is only penal if you are stupid enough to hit the wall, which I have done once in +/- 20 plays.  The other 19 times, it's a pretty easy, gathering approach shot.

[Sean_A]

Tom

I was thinking the same thing.  However, once I heard guys talk about penal recoveries (I never thought of recoveries as penal - more the lack of options which led to the harsh recovery) a light clicked to say yes, why can't bunker shots be called penal?  There is really only one way out of the things if they are properly built!  In any case, I wouldn't call Rye's 5th in the least penal - the 7th for sure and imo overly so.  There is no good way to play the hole when 20mph downwind.  All it requires is a removal of the stupid piece of wood and for aesthetics sake the stupid bush short of the green.  Folks go on about a few other holes at Rye, but this is the one that annoys me the most because it has the rep for being a world class hole - yet it easily could be.

I agree with North Berwick's 1st - its a penal jobbie.  It would be far better as a par 3.  Tougher to get the par for sure, but if you are gonna have that sort of green site than why not use it in all its glory rather than after a rather boring lay-up?

I would call Pennard's 17th an ott penal hole.

Boony

Your selection of Calamity Corner is interesting and I would have to agree, but it is still a great hole.  I spose if we chase after CC we need to look at Cruden Bay's 15th?  There is a par 4 option to the hole by going right, but I am guessing it takes the same sort of carry CC requires for a layup left.  Either way, CB's 15th is nowhere near the hole CC is. 

I spose a few TEC holes could be called penal. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tom kinda has it there.

The nature of the thread (being based on some Ballybunion New green sites) was to set out holes that were perhaps not ideal.

The example I used (the 12th at Tralee) has an excessively penal approach shot. Almost always a long iron to a green which is effectively an island with big fall-offs on three sides covered by deep grasses. Still, as a one-off it is a spectacular hole. The 13th at Tralee is a short par-3 but has similar worries. The 14th at Doonbeg might be another example.

It is just as well Ireland plays most of its competitions in the stableford format because these are holes that have the possibility to make a mockery of the strokes format.

[Niall C]

Ally

I assumed a penal approach as being along the same lines as Tom D however not sure with your suggestion that such a hole is not ideal. I'm not suggesting that a penal approach makes a hole ideal, just that to try and attain an "ideal" suggests standardising design, which leads to repitition and boredom IMHO. The two holes at Silloth I suggested are perhaps two of the "best" and most fun on the course, although 18 holes with the same level of penalty would probably be too much for me.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think you put too much emphasis on the word ideal Niall.

Any way you dress it up, approach shots to high, raised, small shelved greens with trouble and lost balls all around are not ideal. Doesn't mean the odd one isn't tremendous fun and adds spice to a course.

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

I don't think many Americans appreciate the point you have made about how important it is on a links course to provide room so that there is something a player can try to do when approaching the hole with a 20+ mph tailwind.  Certain par-3 holes that look terrific in a photo just fall apart under such conditions.  I don't think it is wrong to have one of them every once in a while -- taking the match play view that it's only one hole, and there's nothing wrong with having one hole where we both have to figure out how to scramble around better than our opponent.  But, there are some holes which don't really give you any reasonable place to even try and make a bogey, the 7th at Rye and The Postage Stamp being two of them.  Ally's 13th at Tralee is another in that category.

Niall:

I agree with you in general but the question is all about the severity of the hazards around the green, as I tried to explain above.  I don't remember anything at Silloth so severe that you couldn't scramble for a bogey.

[Sean_A]

Tom

As with Calamity Corner and as you suggest, there is always room for exceptions to the "playability rule" and the Postage Stamp is clearly that.  I admit that these exceptions are down to taste and in my case I am more likely to be forgiving if its a short hole for its par.  What bothered me about Rye's 7th is the downwind aspect IS the prevailing wind and 20mph must be fairly common.  I can understand, no I can welcome it if the wind is unusual, but it would get old playing a hole like the 7th.  Its more a crime because the hole is a natural beauty compared to say St Enodoc's 8th which is a bit of an ugly duckling out of the dunes.  At least at St Enodoc I can aim for a bunker and if in a bogey is quite acheivable and if one gets lucky he may even hit the green - still, not a clever hole.  

If we are talking severity around the green then often times bunkers are a relief.  Think of Dornoch's 2nd and that gorse immediately to the right - wtf???  I don't like it at all because there is no recovery opportunity to an interesting greensite rather like the greens at Pinehurst. 



Ciao    

[Bill_McBride]

Fully agree about the difficulty of Rye #7 downwind.  I've only played there once, and the wind was up and we played the front nine in a steady rain.  On #7 I tried to hit a pitch just over all the junk below and the wind knocked it down into a lie of catastrophic malevolence.  The hole would play a whole lot easier into the wind!

[Brad Tufts]

#17 at Prestwick...penal though not really overly so.

#17 at Enniscrone...tabletop green complex?

[Rory Connaughton]

Brad,

Agree that 17 at Enniscrone can be very penal.  Probably easiest to play when there is a two club wind from the bay buteven then the wind is quartering.  I actually think that 15 may be more penal.

[Sean_A]

#17 at Prestwick...penal though not really overly so.

#17 at Enniscrone...tabletop green complex?

17 at Prestwick is quite a penal hole with its long, blind carry, but the 7th at Enniscrone?  There is a quite a bit of room out to the right for the squimish ones not wanting to risk going left.  Its a tough little bugger, but not penal in the classic sense of penal. 

Ciao

[Kevin Pallier]

17th on TOC

[Tom_Doak]

Kevin:

At least you can leave it short deliberately at the Road Hole.  It's only penal when you try to get your shot back to the flag.

[Kevin Pallier]

Tom

Yes one can try and leave it deliberately short - though the next shot is still fraught with danger particulalrly to a back pin.

If we're including P3's - I'll nominate

5th Saunton (East)
11th TOC

[Mark_F]

Fully agree about the difficulty of Rye #7 downwind.  I've only played there once, and the wind was up and we played the front nine in a steady rain.  On #7 I tried to hit a pitch just over all the junk below and the wind knocked it down into a lie of catastrophic malevolence.  The hole would play a whole lot easier into the wind!

What a fabulous phrase.

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