CREATIVITY Without infrared, GPS and modern technology ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

The aerial of the golf course at Fishers Island, shown below, and the absence of bunkers got me to thinking about Raynor's use of the land in routing and in the crafting of his individual holes.

Was he so talented, so creative that he thoroughly examined the land, determined a routing and hole design where the topography presented sufficient challenge thereby eliminating the need for fairway bunkering ?

As you play Fishers Island you become aware of how the topography can thwart your efforts off the tee and from the fairway.

Is Fishers Island one of the most creative golf courses ever designed/built ?

Are fairway bunkers evidence that the land alone cannot provide sufficient challenge to the golfer ?

Are bunkers evidence that the architect has failed in his routing, hole design and best use of the land ?

Or, a recognition of the limitations of the land and moreso, the architect ?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

There are many great courses where the fairway bunkering is just a bit of seasoning on the meal.  One of my past guests at Crystal Downs, an architect, said that the land and the routing were so good that it really didn't need the bunkers at all.

That's my short way of saying that Raynor was good at routings, but just because a couple of his clients decided not to build fairway bunkers to save money does NOT mean he was the best of all.

[Michael Whitaker]

Well said, Tom. I've never had the pleasure of playing FI, but I would guess the question could be asked: would additional fairway bunkers improve the "seasoning" of the course... or, is it above improvement?

[Tom_Doak]

Well said, Tom. I've never had the pleasure of playing FI, but I would guess the question could be asked: would additional fairway bunkers improve the "seasoning" of the course... or, is it above improvement?

Michael:

Some people would argue for more fairway bunkers at Fishers Island.  The incrementalists among us would argue that you could improve the strategy of several holes with fairway bunkers, yada yada yada.  Fortunately, none of them is consulting at Fishers Island.

I would contend that the bunkers wouldn't make a significant difference.  Indeed, one thing Fishers has going for it is that due to lack of irrigation, your drive can get away from you and run into trouble far worse than any bunker would provide.

[Michael Whitaker]

Sounds like Sean Arble's dream course!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Well said, Tom. I've never had the pleasure of playing FI, but I would guess the question could be asked: would additional fairway bunkers improve the "seasoning" of the course... or, is it above improvement?

Michael,

I don't think that is the "question"

The fact is that FI is an absolutely incredible golf course, with a unique routing over very unique terrain.

I found the routing and individual holes to be more than special and all this was achieved vis a vis the marriage of the topography with the routing and individual hole designs.  It's quite brilliant, especially when you consider all the template holes he incorporated, that's what's really mind boggling.

In an attempt to improve the course vis a vis fairway bunkering, you could also diminish  or devalue the course by adding bunkering.

If asked to play FI would you declilne the invitation, citing the lack of fairway bunkering.

THose who have played FI, is it less of a golf course due to the absence of fairway bunkering ?

I think not.  I think it's a great, unique golf course and I like it just the way Raynor intended it to play, not the way some would like to alter it by adding fairway bunkering

My GUESS is that those who have played it would probably favor the status quo, while those who haven't played it would probably like to add fairway bunkering.  Is that a fair assessment ?

[Mac Plumart]

Patrick...

I find this thread to be fantastic...and I have a few questions.

#1--You say the course plays "just the way Raynor intended it to play".  Therefore, why would anyone want to change it?  Wouldn't that make it more like every other course and, therefore, make it less unique?  I haven't played it, so I can't offer my opinion.

#2--Tom Doak said,  "Some people would argue for more fairway bunkers at Fishers Island.  The incrementalists among us would argue that you could improve the strategy of several holes with fairway bunkers, yada yada yada.  Fortunately, none of them is consulting at Fishers Island."  This freaks me out a little and scares me.  Much like my first question, this seems to be focused on the courses unique character and Tom's comments seem to allude to the fact that many "rennovators", "restorers", "updaters" who would get their hands on this course would be tempted to alter its character.  I know this type of thing has cost many a course its identity over the course of time, I guess I hope that memberships/management/leadership at these courses are smart enough to make good decisions in the future.  You know what, maybe for my site I'll write an article entitled "Beware the Restorer".  I think that would be an appropriate topic with a catchy ring to it, and totally original!   

Seriously, great stuff guys!!

[Tim Martin]

Patrick...

I find this thread to be fantastic...and I have a few questions.

#1--You say the course plays "just the way Raynor intended it to play".  Therefore, why would anyone want to change it?  Wouldn't that make it more like every other course and, therefore, make it less unique?  I haven't played it, so I can't offer my opinion.

#2--Tom Doak said,  "Some people would argue for more fairway bunkers at Fishers Island.  The incrementalists among us would argue that you could improve the strategy of several holes with fairway bunkers, yada yada yada.  Fortunately, none of them is consulting at Fishers Island."  This freaks me out a little and scares me.  Much like my first question, this seems to be focused on the courses unique character and Tom's comments seem to allude to the fact that many "rennovators", "restorers", "updaters" who would get their hands on this course would be tempted to alter its character.  I know this type of thing has cost many a course its identity over the course of time, I guess I hope that memberships/management/leadership at these courses are smart enough to make good decisions in the future.  You know what, maybe for my site I'll write an article entitled "Beware the Restorer".  I think that would be an appropriate topic with a catchy ring to it, and totally original!   

Seriously, great stuff guys!!

Mac- I think Pat really nails it when he says"I like it just the way Raynor intended it to play". The idea that change might make FI more unique seems a misplaced notion. The holes fit the land almost seamlessly on one of the greatest sites in all of golf. Maybe Donnie Beck could chime in as to whether there has been any interest by the membership to make any design changes. I don`t think fairway bunkers would enhance the golf course or the experience. The place is a shrine as is.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

I don't know if it's prudent for Donnie to post on this topic.

I will say this, when I walked off the 18th green, I wanted to go straight to the 1st tee.

That to me is part of the ultimate test.

FI has to be one of the great plays in golf.
My one regret is that I can't play it everyday in order to get the experience of the different wind directions and velocities.

One of my favorite holes, a combination "Alps" and "Punchbowl" has to present an enormously diverse challenge with different wind directions and velocities.

I would also venture to say that upon completion of the round, most golfers are unaware that there's an absence of fairway bunkers on the golf course because the configuration of the individual holes is so unique as they lie/lay upon the land.

Hole after hole after hole is so special, so unique, so enjoyable.

To be able to play that course under the diverse wind conditions has to be one of the all time treats in golf.

As much as I love a good number of courses, FI would be in my top 10 list of courses that you were confined to, courses which you had to play every day.  It's an endlessly enjoyable challenge.

There have to be good reasons why some of these courses have lasted for almost 100 years.

The combination of the land, wind and non-modernized genious seem to have produced courses for the ages

[Tom_Doak]

There have to be good reasons why some of these courses have lasted for almost 100 years.
[/quote]


Patrick:

Of course, if you don't put in any fairway bunkers, it's hard for a later architect to decide they are in the wrong places!

While I agree with your general sentiment here, do you know for a fact that Raynor INTENDED for there to be no fairway bunkers at all, or whether that decision was made by the club beforehand, or whether they just never got around to putting them in as he suggested?  I remember that another Raynor course, Lookout Mountain, added fairway bunkers a few years ago, where they appeared on an early drawing, on the theory that the club just didn't build them originally in an effort to save money.

[Patrick_Mucci]

There have to be good reasons why some of these courses have lasted for almost 100 years.

Patrick:

Of course, if you don't put in any fairway bunkers, it's hard for a later architect to decide they are in the wrong places!

While I agree with your general sentiment here, do you know for a fact that Raynor INTENDED for there to be no fairway bunkers at all, or whether that decision was made by the club beforehand, or whether they just never got around to putting them in as he suggested?
I don't know, for a fact, whether Raynor intended to insert fairway bunkers, whether the club preempted that facet of the design, or if they just never got around to building them around to it, but, I think one can make a prudent case regarding each of those questions.

The Olmstead rendering dated 05-27-25 doesn't reflect any fairway bunkering.
If I recall correctly, the Olmstead schematics were fairly accurate.
I don't have my FI club history at my disposal, but, I can't recollect seeing any schematics or early aerial photos showing fairway bunkers

In 1926, I don't see the club micromanaging and/or inteferining with his efforts, especially with regard to individual hole design details.  He was one of, if not the preeminent designer/s at that time and I don't see the club fly specking or questioning any aspect of his design, especially with respect to bunker introduction and placement.

As to the issue of the club not getting around to it, I doubt that as well.
There was tremendous wealth at that club so I don't see any money issues.  One only has to look at the elaborate, huge, expensive clubhouse they built to understand that money or project completion was not an issue.  

 I remember that another Raynor course, Lookout Mountain, added fairway bunkers a few years ago, where they appeared on an early drawing, on the theory that the club just didn't build them originally in an effort to save money.

I don't think you can equate the two, in 1926 on FI, I don't think money was an issue.
That was one of the wealthiest memberships in America at that time.
[/quote]

[Mark Chaplin]

Looking at the aerial the thing that sticks out to me on the FI routing is the old links style where each tee is close by the the previous green, massively reducing walking times. On such a difficult plot this may have been difficult to achieve.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Pat,
As one who is yet to glimpse FI in the flesh, my initial thought is In the form of a question to you:
What is the depth perception like? Clearly a strong strategic element is the judgment of distance on a shot, and I notice, particularly with Dr Mackenzie's work.

So to me, this poses a second question, wouldn't some consideration to this design element potentially improve the round? The penal nature of a FW bunker Tom addressed with the fast FWs.

I also do not see how an accurate assessment of Rayor's design can be made without knowing his specific brief from his employer.
Bm

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
As one who is yet to glimpse FI in the flesh, my initial thought is In the form of a question to you:

What is the depth perception like? Clearly a strong strategic element is the judgment of distance on a shot, and I notice, particularly with Dr Mackenzie's work.

The golf course at FI is set upon very interesting topography which unfortunately, is lost in the aerial.
You  have uphill shots, down hill shots, sidehill shots, blind shots, carry shots, ground shots.
FI would be a great course without and distance aids

So to me, this poses a second question, wouldn't some consideration to this design element potentially improve the round?

By what incremental degree ?

The penal nature of a FW bunker Tom addressed with the fast FWs.

You don't need a FW in order to be penalized with your drive at FI, ther's plenty of problems off the tee, just take another look at the aerial, which dosn't tell the entire story due to the inability to understand the topography the golfer faces.

I also do not see how an accurate assessment of Rayor's design can be made without knowing his specific brief from his employer.

You're probably not aware of this, TEPaul and Wayne Morrisson, however, are.
Whenever I'm in Southampton I stop by and speak with CBM and SR.

In my last conversation with SR I asked him your exact question.

He told me that his "employer" on FI told him to build a mundane, mediocre golf course, one that posed little in the way of challenge for any level of golfer, one where "costs" construction and maintainance, must be kept to a minimum at all times, and that was one of the reasons why he never introduced fairway bunkering.

He said that these people, the wealthiest people in America wanted to skimp on everything, so that they could put every dime into the Taj Mahal of a clubhouse they were building.  He also indicated that since many, if not most, members would  be spending the entire summer vacationing at FI, they wanted a course that would quickly bore them to death so that they could spend more time at home with their wives. which almost every one of the members, to a man, felt that was the way to truely enjoy a summer vacation
Bm