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Jeff Taylor

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Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2010, 12:47:03 PM »
Some clarification.
Kyle, I am not sure if we are closer or not. A lower cost does promote more use but not more use than current supply will support. A price of zero will still limit the use of said product (an extreme example I know). Long lines don't do anybody any good. Your reference to a desired end is the open question. What is the desired end?


Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2010, 01:56:51 AM »
Mike, Jeff and Kyle,

Some good questions and points raised all around men! I think that the "affordable" definition doesn't have to be one hard, set price point or tight range. Basically, the idea is to discover and share information and practices that allow the gteatest number of those interested to have the means to participate in golf on some level if they desire.

Not every operator is interested in this and that's fine. From my view, and those of many that attended, judging from their comments, was that the discussion must begin to identify and establish what is needed and how to begin addressing it.

While you might be surprised to learn Mike, many locals, including owners and operators WERE in attendance, despite a line-up of outside, bigger names and guest speakers from some of the traditional sources. I atttribute this to several reasons. First, the solid efforts of Rich to get the word out. Second, his reputation as someone who is a doer, not just a talker. Third, this subject is damn important to a lot of people, not just course owners or operators. The game can't thrive and exist just on course owners, EVERONE has a stake, the degrees just vary that all.

The golf round was played at Southern Pines, a superb, affordable layout($35), though the tariff can get a little richer in season. Overall, the entire affair was an excellent, well-run event. I'd encourage anyone who cares about the game and learning more about the many issues that impact its health to make your way to Pinehurst next Nov. 7-8, 2011. I think you'd be surprised at what you came away with in enlightenment!
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2010, 09:11:38 AM »
Thanks for the reply Kris. It is obvious that your group is well intentioned and pursues a worthy goal. I was having difficulty with finding a connection between the document and how one acts in the world to achieve those ends. Golf's 2nd era of significant growth is over and people in the industry will have to adapt. I commend your efforts to get your hands around that challenge.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2010, 11:00:44 AM »
I finally read the entire white paper.  And, I think the comments of Kyle are the most in tune with my own thoughts.  I have been a cheerleader for the Wild Horse model since I first drove in there to have a look in 1998.  I myself tried to organize an almost identical effort here in Wisconsin in the early 90s.  I didn't succeed for reasons that are different than the market conditions that existed to allow Wild Horse to succeed.  But, that is off the topic of affordable golf, when it comes to the marketting of the effort.  But, the capitalization model we followed was so closely comparable to Wild Horses, that it is spooky to read the two offering documents.

That said, my home 'at home' in Wisconsin course is an impressively affordable and well run county owned faciltiy.  I sent Richards pdf white paper to our pro and super.  They have been doing it 'right' in the affordable arena, and balancing their management practices generally along many of the white paper's bullet points of observation of what promotes affordable golf minus extravagant unnecessary distractions, yet high quality profitably amenities.  Yes, I know all the arguments about the 'unfair' competitive advantage muni's have, but our course serves a strata of dedicated muni players that fits our community.  We have successful mom and pop golf operations in this same market, and a couple of private and semi-private clubs at varying membership price points.  Near as I can tell, about 10 out of 12 courses in immediate area are surviving because they all seem to know their customers and what they really want.  The two that may not, are one recently bankrupt and now Indian casino bought facility, that still may not make it on its own without the gaming subsidy because the original series of ownership totally overbuilt and over estimated on a grand scale not in tune with the area, and the other is an advanced aged owner who I think is just tired.

The real aspect I take away from the white paper on the affordable AND sustainable notion is the efforts that must be made to keep the pipeline full of new golfers.  Our own county facility recently got a grant from First Tee and is going to build what should be an outstanding facility for youngsters and adults to practice, with three practice holes and a separate driving range.  the key will be to get the youth out there and interested.  And, to get their families in a custom of sharing the golf experience.  While that will take place at the county owned facility, it can be a feeder for the entire market, if it is successful. 

"People want to play more, not pay more" - Tim Weiman.  Put family golf in the right price range, and I think you are on the right track, even if the facility has to give something away, inorder to build on an upcoming market in a few years to be sustainable.  Otherwise, like Mark Macormick once told the Golf course owners assoc., "everytime you see a heast go by, you are loosing your customers base".
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2010, 11:32:12 AM »
Have MIke young talk about design and construction with minimal costs maintenance going forward. 

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2010, 11:19:20 AM »
I would suggest that next years' symposium look at affordable private club golf.  Private clubs nurture the soul of the game but usually cost too much in the US for any person with a reasonable income to join.

It would be interesting to look at affordable private clubs to see why some have waiting lists and others are on life support.

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2010, 11:49:59 AM »
This link is relevant to the discussion Richard has started.
http://www.askernishgolfclub.com/studentsustainabilityproject.php

Emmy

Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2011, 09:58:11 PM »
Richard:

Thank you for spearheading the Symposium on Affordable Golf and for providing an excellent summary on what was discussed amongst presenters and participants.

Pardon the echo, but affordable golf is a topic of enormous concern to many of us in the industry. I've shared your white paper with a few colleagues, and they too, are sharing it with others in the industry. It should be mandatory reading for all golf leaders and influencers. 

A few of us have huddled out West, and with your permission we'd like to post your brief summary (with a link to the white paper) on the California Alliance for Golf web site.

Count me in for your second symposium in Nov....and if you would consider a similar summit out West, I'd be happy to assist you and your committee.

To Your Good Work,

Emmy

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2011, 04:20:58 PM »
Richard - thanks for your "White Paper".

You mentioned my remark as to the thrill of the game.  I'm going to quote a paragraph on BUNKERS in a rough draft written in 1916 by Hugh Wilson, but never submitted in the final version of his discussion of building and seeding 18 greens and 15 fairways, because  he said it was "more properly under Golf Construction".  I quote.

"The question of bunkers is a big one and we believe the very best school for study is along the seacoast among the sand dunes.  Here one may study the different formations and obtain many ideas for bunkers.  We have tried to make them naturall and fit them into the landscape.  The criticism has been made that they are too easy, that is the banks are too sloping and that man may at times play a mid-iron shot out of the bunker, where he should be forced to use a niblick.  This opens a pretty big subject and we appreciate that the tendency is to make bunkers more and more difficult.  In the bunkers abroad on the seaside courses, the majority of them were formed by nature and the slopes are easy:  the only exception being, where on acccount of the shifting sand, they have been forced to put in railroad ties or some similar substance to keep the same from blowing.  This has made a perfectly straight wall but it was not done with the intention of making it more diifficult to get out, but merely to retain the bunker as it exists.  If we make the banks of every bunker so steep that the very best player is forced to always use a niblick and the only hope he has is to be able to get his ball back on the fairway again, why should we not make a rule, as we have at the present time with water hazards, where a many may, if he so desires, drop back with a oss of one stroke.  I thoroughly believe that for the good of Golf, that we should not make our bunkers so difficult, that there is no choice left in playing out but that the best and the worst must use a niblick."

Thanks, Hugh Wilson, for the Thrill of the game ! 

Carl Rogers

Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2011, 04:39:37 PM »
I agree with it all....

but....

Like a lot issues that get beyond the "feel good" stage, I hope to see a lot more successful examples in in detail in a number of different geographical (marketplace) areas.  I hope that at least a few owners will to share their initial investment, operating structure, taxes, equipment maintenance practices, management and all other financial information & pitfalls.  Many need to figure out if the idea is remotely feasible.

I have yet to figure out how many a pro shop earns its keep.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 04:41:30 PM by Carl Rogers »

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2011, 08:51:57 AM »
Willie,

Superb excerpt from Wilson! Thanks for that and they are the most thoughtful insights on the subect of bunkers I've read to date.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2011, 10:06:50 PM »
Kris - Reading the rest of the Wilson 1916 paper is a description of "Affordable Golf" in the making of Merion East, and the work done with the United States Department of Agriculture to accomplish grass and weeds to build those 18 greens and 15 fairways.

Richard_Mandell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2011, 09:25:49 PM »
Dear Emmy:

Plese feel free to post my summary and a link to the web page and hope to see you at GolfInc. at Innsbrook or are you just relegated to west coast events?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Symposium on Affordable Golf White Paper
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2011, 09:42:49 PM »
I agree with it all....

but....

Like a lot issues that get beyond the "feel good" stage, I hope to see a lot more successful examples in in detail in a number of different geographical (marketplace) areas.  I hope that at least a few owners will to share their initial investment, operating structure, taxes, equipment maintenance practices, management and all other financial information & pitfalls.  Many need to figure out if the idea is remotely feasible.

I have yet to figure out how many a pro shop earns its keep.
As to your above question:
http://www.cunninglyclevergolfoperator.com/wordpress/index.php/2011/01/do-you-need-a-pga-pro/
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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