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TEPaul

Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #200 on: January 22, 2011, 11:50:01 AM »
Mike:

Wayne and I got pretty heavily into the details of the entire architectural evolution of TCC in the last decade and with and without the club's participation. To say the least, it is definitely complicated in certain areas and at certain times.

We did not get so heavily into the details of the architectural evolution of Shinnecock except essentially Flynn's course but as I have said before on here this book of Goddard's is pretty incredible in this way. One of the aspects Goddard really concentrates on is the entire financial and land history of the club and from that both he and others reading the book can definitely suss out some of the architectural evolutionary details heretofore not well known at all.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 11:54:02 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #201 on: January 22, 2011, 02:23:23 PM »
Willie Dunn was the professional at Shinnecock in 1893.  That TEPaul would still dispute this is laughable.   Surely if Goddard had a handful of articles from 1893 stating that Dunn was the professional, then Mr. Goddard would readily acknowledge this.  Yet because Goddard has it wrong, TEPaul must insist that it is otherwise.  

This kind of sycophantic devotion to these histories does nothing but embarrass these institutions and the well-meaning authors like Goddard, Weeks, Tolhurst, etc.    

Dunn reportedly came to Shinnecock in 1893 and lengthened the course before that season began. That he was there in 1893 cannot be seriously disputed. There is just too much contemporaneous evidence.  And I am not referring to the reports brought forward by Phillip from years later.  I am talking about reports FROM THAT YEAR. 1893.  For example, it was reported in 1893 in the NYTimes that Dunn arrived before the season and lengthened the course, and it was reported in 1893 that he traveled from Shinnecock to Newport for at least one money match against Davis.  Etc.  It was even reported that he forgot to leave the keys to the equipment shack when he went on an excursion to Newport! For TEPaul to ignore these reports and blindly grasp onto Goddard (a book he hadn't even read until after I started this thread) is perfectly consistent with his mode of operation in all these discussions.  Go with the official history at all costs, no matter the source material.  

As for the rest, TEPaul keeps trying to finesse this bit about Davis supposedly lengthening the course to twelve holes in 1892, before he supposedly went to Newport that year. But it is becoming more apparent that this is speculation on his part, or possibly was speculation on the part of  Mr. Goddard, since as usual TEPaul has done no research of his own and is just chirping what someone else wrote.  Whether he is doing so honestly and accurately is doubtful, though, given his past proclivity toward lying about these things.  It is possible that Davis expanded the course in 1892, I guess, but I'll certainly not take TEPaul's word for it.  

If any source material indicates that Davis was even at Shinnecock (or Newport) in 1892, I'd love to know about it. Likewise, if any source material indicates that Davis lengthened the Shinnecock course to 12 holes in 1892, I'd love to know about it.   As it is, all we have is a vague reference to something late in 1891 indicating that Shinnecock would move the course to their own land.  We know this happened before the 1893 season, but the questions are when it happened and who did it?  

Reportedly, Davis went to Newport in 1893, not 1892.  As of yet, I have found no reports of Davis at Shinnecock in the summer of 1892.  Reportedly, John Cuthert as the professional at Shinnecock in the Summer 1892, and Shinnecock was still reported to be a 9 hole course, with the same nine holes as were reported from the year before.   I guess is it possible that the report of Cuthbert as the professional were just some weird dream by the reporter who reported it, and that the report of the 9 hole course was  somehow based on information from a year earlier, but this seems highly unlikely.    

TEPaul has repeatedly claimed that Dunn is on record as claiming he designed Newport and numerous other courses, but as of yet he has not sourced this claim.  As usual.  
___________________________________

The dismissal of these early architects as having "no architectural talent" is naive, as is the claim that their architecture had no significance.  Both claims demonstrate a lack of fundamental understanding about this initial period in the development of the game in the United States.  

Sure their work didn't survive, but there were very good reasons for this that have little to do with their supposed lack of talent.  For one thing, these guys were laying out courses for people who largely had never even played the game before and who were playing in the pre-rubber ball era.   As a consequence, out of necessity the early courses were not only simple, they were also extremely short.  For another thing, these courses were often laid out on leased or borrowed land, and/or on land which would soon become extremely valuable for other purposes.  Even Shinnecock originally planned to lease their land, and even though they ended up purchasing it, their initial course still didn't fit on the land!  

There are other reasons and they are worth discussing, but I've no interest in arguing them with these two jokers. Their involvement here is purely rhetorical.  Whatever legitimate interest they have in actually learning about the history golf course architecture has long been overwhelmed by their desire to advance their various pet projects and to tear down their pet peeves at any cost.  
_____________________________________________________________________

If TEPaul and Wayne didn't get into the details of Shinnecock's early history, then why had TEPaul been claiming otherwise?  
And why did he insist that it was all laid out in detail in their unpublishable manuscript?  
And why did he insist that I needed to have contacted him and Wayne before even posting on the subject?
And why did he insist that Phillip Young should have contacted Wayne before even posted articles about it?
And why a few months ago was he insisting that the history was much different than the version he is now shilling?

Does him owning a history book written by someone else really make him an expert on the history of Shinnecock?  I don't think so.  I think this is all about him trying to control everything that is said or written about golf course architecture all along the Eastern Seaboard and who knows where else.

The man has no credibility.  Nothing he says should be taken at face value.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 02:36:53 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #202 on: January 22, 2011, 05:15:20 PM »
From Post #200:

“I am not aware of much of anything that endured or remains of what they did back then and that is probably the ultimate testimony to and story of the actual and historical significance of the quality of their architecture, or more accurately, lack of it.

My sense has long been that even given that, it may not be fair to them or appropriate historically to also conclude that they were men with no architectural talent; only that they just were not afforded the necessary time and the necessary opportunity to do more or do better.”



From Post #203:

“The dismissal of these early architects as having "no architectural talent" is naive,……..”



Hmmm. Do I detect from #203 that what we have here is a participant who seems unable or unwilling to correctly read or understand a fairly simple sentence and therefore quotes the exact opposite of what was said in #200?*

*Kindly read the remainder of Post #203 following the quote from it above for additional edification.

Thank you, thank you, thank you vuury muuch.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 06:27:02 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #203 on: January 22, 2011, 05:55:36 PM »
The first two full seasons of play and operations at Shinnecock were
thoroughly successful ones. The clubhouse was open and furnished by June 1892,
and the Trustees held their first meeting in it on June 18. By August, there were
67 elected members with subscriptions to 130 shares ($ 13,000,) and at least an
equal number of subscribers. Golf was played over the twelve holes of the White
Course, running south of the clubhouse and back and forth across the railroad,
with increasing skill and enthusiasm, and the women's course quickly found an
enthusiastic following. The financial operation of the Club ran smoothly. The
land had been appraised at S20,000-'

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #204 on: January 23, 2011, 03:36:42 PM »
In his post immediately above, TEPaul doesn't properly acknowledge who he is quoting, which is not surprising. If it were something from 1892 or 1893 it would be helpful and clarify a few things.  But chances are it is something TEPaul read in Goddard, since he is incapable of actually researching on his own.  As I have said, and as I am sure Mr. Goddard would agree, Mr. Goddard's conclusions are only as good as his sources and analysis.  Parroting his conclusion does nothing to advance the conversation.  Yet TEPaul offers no explanation of how the author of the above passage reached his conclusion that "golf was played over twelve holes."

Plus, the statement is ambiguous.  The "first two full seasons" at Shinnecock were summers of 1892 and 1893. There are reports that it was a 12 hole course in 1893, and that Willie Dunn had lengthened it that spring.  The question is, what was the course for the 1892 season?   Given what TEPaul has claimed, surely Goddard must have written more than just the about it.  Otherwise, what is TEPaul's basis for claiming that Davis returned to Shinnecock for 1892?  What is his basis for claiming Davis expanded the course to 12 holes that year and moved the women's course?    What is his basis for claiming that Davis went to Newport in 1892?

He has indicated that his basis was Goddard's book, but that only begs the question:  What is Goddard's basis?  Now I am starting to wonder if TEPaul didn't just make up all these little details.   That would be pretty despicable, but I have come to expect that from TEPaul.  
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 03:38:41 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #205 on: January 23, 2011, 03:50:09 PM »
"There are reports that it was a 12 hole course in 1893, and that Willie Dunn had lengthened it that spring."

David Moriarty:

Yes, it was a 12 hole course in 1893, the same 12 hole course in 1892!

Now, if you are going to demand that I supply Goddard's sources for any information in his book, then why don't you begin the excercise by supplying for everyone on here those newspaper clippings that you say claim suggest that Willie Dunn lengthened the Shinnecock course from nine holes to twelve holes? And when you have done THAT, why don't you supply us all with what the SOURCES were for whomever it was who wrote those newspaper clippings?  ;)  

I will personally call David Goddard and ask him what his sources were for anything or everything he said in that book if you do the same for your newspaper clippings. I doubt I will need to make that call because you can't do that and all you will do is just ignore it and rationalize it away as you do most everything you say on here when asked these kinds of things.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 03:55:35 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #206 on: January 23, 2011, 04:17:43 PM »
Here we go again, another scam by TEPaul where he makes claims that he cannot back up.  

If Goddard wrote that Davis returned to Shinnecock and expanded the course in 1892, then why won't TEPaul provide that quote? If Goddard wrote that Dunn was not the professional in 1893, then why hasn't TEPaul provided that quote? Did Goddard even know that the course was originally nine holes, or did TEPaul just make this up as well?

And what of these games?  Again demanding I jump through hoops for him?  Not going to happen.  

As for me, I've have already cited from and quoted a number of articles which provide sound basis for everything I have written.  TEPaul apparently didn't bother to read that.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 04:19:14 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #207 on: January 23, 2011, 07:50:03 PM »
"As for me, I've have already cited from and quoted a number of articles which provide sound basis for everything I have written.  TEPaul apparently didn't bother to read that."


Yes you have and I have already cited and reported what Goddard wrote in his book. You are asking me to explain to you what Goddard's SOURCES were or to quote you what those SOURCES say. I have already said I would call him and ask him to explain them in detail. But why should I do that if you can't even tell me or this website what the SOURCES were for what was written in those newspaper clippings you cited? Obviously you won't do that because you can't do that because there are no SOURCES cited for what was written in those newspaper clippings. Consequently, they are at face, no more reliable, informationally or otherwise, than what Goddard said in his book, and probably a whole lot less so if Goddard was reporting on detailed information he found in the archives of Shinnecock GC or elsewhere.

I must say that Goddard's history and chronicle of the entire financial history of Shinnecock GC and Shinnecock Hills itself is unbelievable in its detail so it sure would seem pretty safe to say that what he reported on the history and evolution of the club's courses and their pros also has a wealth of detail in those archives. Therefore if he says there is no evidence from or within the club's archives that Shinnecock had a golf pro for most of 1892 and 1893 even though there is ample evidence that they had a steward, and he names him, I take that as very reliable information.

And I would also advise you not to be riding me for reading Goddard's book and providing information from it because it appears you haven't even done that yet and are probably not likely to either. I doubt you were even aware of Goddard's book and its comprehensive history of Shinnecock GC and the entire Shinnecock Hills before you began this particular thread of yours.

To me, this thread of yours is shades of how limited your research was on Merion before you wrote that essay of yours on it. In fairness to you, I doubt you had much if any idea how limited your research and research information was on Merion and MCC when you wrote that essay. But what pisses me off is after others provided that additional research information to you on here, your MO has been to spend the next two years denying that or just playing ridiculous word games and games of fallacious logic and reason with the information that was provided to you on here; information that anybody who can read English can understand what it says and means which is definitely NOT what you've been claiming for a couple of years what it says and means.

Shinnecock had a nine hole golf course in 1891 known as the White Course done by Willie Davis and in 1892 it had a twelve hole golf course by the same name also done by Davis and the members played on it in the season of 1892 and 1893. The club's archives record this clear as a bell. Either towards the end of 1894 or early in 1895 Willie Dunn expanded the White Course to an eighteen hole golf course. Matter of fact, in September 1894 Dunn and Campbell played a notable match on Davis's twelve hole Shinnecock White Course.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 08:23:21 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #208 on: January 23, 2011, 08:29:57 PM »
And by the way, in his book Goddard also said that Willie Dunn also took credit for originally laying out Newport GC, prompting Willie Davis to write GOLF explaining that that was not true. Goddard even put in quotation marks something that Davis said in what he wrote to GOLF.

Frankly, that short quote of what Goddard reported Davis wrote to GOLF about what Willie Dunn was actually after with Newport is one of the most interesting remarks I have ever heard which may help us all understand a lot better how those early English, Scottish immigrant pros over here back in the late 19th century REALLY DID PLY their TRADES, which apparently were various and mulitple and definitely not just about golf course architecture!  ;)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 08:31:54 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #209 on: January 24, 2011, 12:22:01 PM »
So far nothing from Goddard has been brought forward even suggesting that Davis returned to Shinnecock in 1892. Nothing from Goddard has been brought forward indicating that Davis lengthened the course to 12 holes that year, before going to Shinnecock.   No explanation has been provided as to how Goddard came to the conclusion (if he did) that the course was 12 holes in 1892.     
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #210 on: January 29, 2011, 01:26:33 AM »
TEPaul has treated us to quite a lot of misinformation about what happened at Shinnecock those first few years.  As I come across additional accurate information, I'd like to continue to set the record straight. As I do so, I will try to leave Mr. Goddard's book (or whatever it is) out of it as best I can.  While I haven't read the work,  I have no doubt it is well researched and well written and worthy of careful consideration, and I hope nothing I have written or will write is viewed as an attack on Mr. Goddard or his work. That is not my intention at all. As I have said, I seriously doubt that much of what TEPaul has claimed is actually even in the Goddard book. More likely that TEPaul is just trying to draw conclusions from the material that reasonable researchers wouldn't necessarily draw, and then disingenuously hiding behind Goddard to try and sell us his unsupportable claims. At least this has been his practice on other matters.

TEPaul has repeatedly claimed that Willie Dunn has been proven to have taken credit for a number of courses he did not lay out. His "proof" for this claim is apparently a reference in Goddard's book to a letter written by W.F. Davis to the editor of Golf magazine, wherein Davis sets the record straight after Dunn supposedly claimed to have designed Newport.  I don't know whether Willie Dunn ever took credit for laying out Newport, but I have been unable to find where he had done so. That said, I have found the Davis letter which Goddard apparently mentioned, as well as the letter to which Davis was responding. Both appeared in the British publication called Golf in the fall of 1893.

But contrary to TEPaul's claim, while there was a letter stating that Dunn designed Newport along with a number of other American courses, it was not written by Willie Dunn, at least not according to the signature. The letter was written by R.E. Cherrill, of 51 East 23th St., New York. From what I can figure out, Mr. Cherrill was British by birth and was a journalist who had been married to a famous actress and went through a nasty divorce and custody battle suitable for today's tabloids. Reportedly, he had also been the drama critic for one of the morning papers, and judging by the letter he had a flair for dramatic.  The following is my transcription of the letter from Golf in November 1893 [NOTE: I HAND COPIED BOTH LETTERS SO IT IS POSSIBLE THERE MAY BE MINOR ERRORS]

Sirs --Willie Dunn, well-known in Scotland and Biarritz, has just completed a visit of five months in the United States, and with characteristic energy and pluck has been showing the Yankees a thing or two in Golf, besides accumulating, I hope, a large amount of American dollars for use in England during the winter. When Dunn arrived in America he found three clubs in existence, and when he left there were over forty clubs, all practicing the game hard, and full of enthusiasm.  Newport is the golf headquarters of America, and there Dunn was warmly welcomed. He laid out a fine new course for the Newport Golf Club, and inaugurated its completion by playing a game for the Championship of America against William Davis, the Champion of Canada. Dunn easily defeated his opponent, winning by 6 holes. To show the interest taken in the event, I may state that Dunn, instead of having a “laddie” to carry his clubs, was honoured by the attendance of two well known millionaires, who stuck to him all through a heavy thunder and rain storm, and landed him a triumphant and happy victor.
  Dunn has laid out courses for Bayard Cutting at Oakdale, Long Island, for W. K. Vanderbilt, at Newport, for Mr. F. Gebhardt at Trixedo, for Sidney Dillon Ripley and the Meadow Brook Club at Hempstead, Long Island, for Mr. W. Mc K. Twombley at New Jersey, and at several other places.  At Shinnecock Hill, Long Island, there is a very fine undulating course of two and a-half miles.  
  The game has become a very fashionable one in America, and many ladies have become experts under the able tuition of Dunn, who has performed wonders for the game in America. He will return to America again next May, and will then play a series of matches. The prospects for Golf are very bright all over the United States.  
  I am Sir &c., R.E. Cherrill, 51 East 23rd Street, NY, Oct 5th [1893.]


Undoubtedly there is some question about whether Cherrill was shilling for Dunn, or whether he is just an overzealous yet confused journalist.  Surely the letter is not enough to indict Dunn as the "world's biggest liar" as TEPaul ironically has.  What I find most interesting about the letter are the other courses mentioned and the mention of Shinnecock. One could easily read the letter as indicating that Dunn laid out Shinnecock, but Cherrill skirts the issue and leaves it a bit ambiguous. Given that whatever work Dunn did at Shinnecock was done over the original Davis none, his treatment was probably more honest than not.  

Anyway, about a month or so later, Davis responded to set the record straight.  

Sir --In your issue of November 10th, there appears to be a letter under the above head, signed by “R.E. Cherrill,” New York.  As the statements made therein are very misleading and unjust to myself, I feel in duty bound to explain the situation through your valuable paper.
  The idea of starting a Golf Club in Newport, R.I., was first suggested by Mr. Lorilard Spencer, and Mr. H. Mortimer Brooks, one year ago.  Mr. Spencer wrote to me about the game, and requested that I should come to Newport and look, for suitable ground for a links.  I came to Newport November 10th, 1892, and in company of several gentlemen, looked over all available ground, finally selecting a place on Brentin’s Point, about three-and-a-half miles from Newport, on the shores of the Atlantic.   The club was organized on January 12th, 1893.  Mr. Theo. A. Havemeyer was elected president, Mr. R Goelet, vice president, Mr. R. J. Gammell, secretary, and Mr. Lorillard Spencer, treasurer.  At the same meeting I was engaged as club-maker and instructor, and entered on my duties on March 1st following.  I laid out a course of nine holes, and the club opened on June 15th.  There were four handsome cups competed for during the summer and much interest taken in the game.  To show that my services have been appreciated by the members they have already engaged me for another year, form March 1st next, with a substantial increase to my salary.   Before coming to Newport I was engaged with the Royal Montreal Golf Club, Canada; to which club I went out from Hoylake, in 1881.  There was never any game played for the championship of Canada; consequently I have no claim to that title.  The first heard of W. Dunn in Newport was a letter received by a member asking if they wanted a man to lay out links, and supply clubs and balls.   Dunn was then engaged by the Shinnecock Hills Golf Club.  The letter was handed to me, and I wrote him for his prices, offering to give him what I could.  He came on a visit to Newport, July 26th, and the club subscribed a purse of $80 to be divided, to play an exhibition game. Dunn declined to play the first day, which was fine; the second day was a rough stormy day, and Dunn found that he must go home that night, so we played the game, with four gentlemen and one lady for spectators.  Dunn won the first three holes then held them to the end of the first round, and finally won by 5 and 3 to play.  We than ran home, out of the rain.  The caddies refused to go more than one round, and two of the members kindly carried or clubs for the remainder of the match.  Scores; Dunn -Out, 5 4 4 5 8 5 4 4 6 = 45; in, 6 4 4 5 7 4=30; total 75.  Davis – Out; 6 5 5 3 5 5 6 6 = 46; in, 7 5 6 4 5; total 79.  I may mention that Dunn is the first professional I have seen in twelve years, and that my time is so taken up in workshop and giving lessons that I have no time to practise the game.  As for the statement that Dunn found three clubs in existence and left forty, it is a false statement.  
  The Newport Club have purchased a fine property and intend putting up a handsome club-house for next season, particulars of which I will send when plans are complete.  Trusting you will find room for this in your valuable paper, I am
Sir, &c. W.F. Davis (Professional, Newport Golf Club). Newport R.I, November 26th.  


From what I can tell, the letter by Davis is accurate.  The only slightly misleading portion may have been his excuses for not being on the top of his game.  It was probably true that he was busy and hadn't played a professional in 12 years --he had come to Montreal from Hoylake 12 years before, and there weren't really any professionals over here at that time!  But he had played in three high profile matches the fall before, against the top Canadian Amateur at the time, __ Smith of the Quebec club.  And Smith held his own, going 1-1-1 against the professional.   Whatever his excuses for losing to Dunn, in the various professional matches over the next couple of seasons, it seems that Davis didn't quite have the game of a Willie Dunn or Willie Campbell.  

Anyway, the Davis letter ought to put a few more of TEPaul's misrepresentations to rest.    

Most obviously, contrary to TEPaul's claims,  Dunn was not only in the United States in the summer of 1893, he was engaged by Shinnecock.  This is of no surprise.  The Davis letter is one of many accounts of Dunn's 1893 tenure at Shinnecock.  Yet inexplicably TEPaul refuses to acknowledge even this.  Do you suppose he will even believe Davis on the matter?    

Additionally, TEPaul has repeatedly claimed that, after coming to Shinnecock in the summer of 1891, Davis either stayed for the winter or returned the next spring, and that spring he expanded the Shinnecock course from 9 holes to 12 holes.  Davis supposedly remained at Shinnecock until some point later in 1892, when he went to work as Newport's professional.  TEPaul claims he got all this information from Goddard's book, and since I don't have it I cannot say one way or another whether this stuff is in there, but I seriously doubt it.  NOTHING brought forward thus far from Goddard's book supports any of this.  My guess is that TEPaul just made it up to try and save face and cast doubt on my initial posts.

But whether TEPaul made this up or got it from Goddard, W.F. Davis directly contradicts most of it.  According to Davis, while he did visit Newport in November in 1892, but he was not hired as their professional until the next January, and did not begin work there until March 1, 1893.   More importantly, prior to going to Newport, Davis was the professional at Royal Montreal, and had been employed since 1881.   Davis made no mention of having worked at Shinnecock in 1892, nor does he mention expanding their course.  

As is discussed in my initial posts and the articles included therewith, Davis was never the professional at Shinnecock.  He was the professional at Montreal, and was essentially on loan to Shinnecock for one month in 1891, during which time he laid out a nine hole course for the men and a nine hole course for the women.   As J. Hutton Balfour wrote in this excerpt from his October 26, 1891, "GOLF IN CANADA" contribution to Golf:

"Next request we had was from several gentlemen in Long Island, New York, that we would permit our professional to go there for a month to lay out a green and instruct them; this we gladly did, and a good eighteen holes have been laid out, and there is a fair promise of good players; this club should be a success, there are so may Scotchmen in New York.  They are now advertising for a professional. There is also a small club at Yonkers, New York."

Reportedly, Shinnecock hired John Cuthbert as their professional for 1892.  

Finally, while Davis was obviously setting the record straight when it came to Dunn, Davis did not even mention having created the original nine holes at Shinnecock, much less the twelve hole course.    Given that the Cherrill letter at least creates the impression that Dunn had something to do with Shinnecock, it is noteworthy that Davis did not try to contradict this.

As I wrote above, so far I have nothing in the source material indicating that Davis returned to Shinnecock before the 1892 season to redo his nine hole men's course and create a 12 hole course, or that he moved the women's course.   Likewise, nothing has been brought forward from Goddard's book indicating that this was the case.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #211 on: January 29, 2011, 11:01:03 AM »
That is fascinating.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #212 on: February 02, 2011, 09:29:56 AM »
There is a lengthy article profiling Wilie Dunn in the June 1898 magazine, "The Golfer".   I'm not sure it sheds any light or if it has been mentioned here prior, but as regards Shinnecock;

"From Biarritz, in 1893, Willie Dunn was tempted by Mr. Duncan Cryden and Mr. Mead, of Dodd, Mead, and Co. to come to America, where he accepted the post of professional instructor at Shinnecock during the summer.   Here, while carrying out many improvements on the dunes, he was the means, by careful coaching, of persuading many ladies and gentlemen to take up the game.   Among his early pupils were Mr. Archibald Rogers, Mrs. Brown, ex-lady champion, and Miss Beatrix Hoyt."

"Meainwhile Willie Dunne was laying out a number of principal courses in the neighborhood of New York, including Meadowbrook, Islip, Lakewood, Orange, Easthampton, Oyster Bay, Rockaway, Hunting Club, etc., etc.   But by far his greatest achievement in this line, and one that can never be excelled, was the absolute creation of the links at Ardsley.   Dunn had to clear away a virgin forest to complete his task, and as we wander today over the glorious expanse of turf we can never forget the herculean efforts that were put forth month after month by Willie in the production of the most varied and picturesque golf course in this country."

"After flying visits to Biarritz in the winter Willie Dunn forsook Shinnecock for the golfer's Utopia he had so well planned, and March, 1896 found him quartered at Ardsley-on-Hudson with his wife and Willie Dunn Jr."
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 11:42:51 AM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #213 on: February 04, 2011, 04:33:01 PM »
Thanks Mike.  I was planning on posting the entire article at some point, but your quote may have covered it. 

While the article mentions "many improvements" it unfortunately does not say what improvements, it at least further clarifies that Dunn was definitely there in 1893.  But we've already beaten that to death.   

My guess is that TEPaul's claim (attributed to Goddard, but I doubt that) about how Davis must have come back to expand the course to twelve holes in 1893 was based upon the mistaken conclusion that Shinnecock had no other professional until 1894.   

Why else would he stick by this disproven assertion that Dunn was not there in 1893?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #214 on: February 13, 2011, 07:56:26 PM »
Not sure if this article helps anyone's case...but came across this NY Sun July 1907 one that talks a little about the evolution of the course.


Joe Bausch

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Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #215 on: September 14, 2012, 11:04:55 AM »
Not sure I saw this article from Jan 10, 1902 (NY Sun) posted in the nine page thread, but it gives some good info about Willie Davis and others.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

George Pazin

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Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #216 on: September 26, 2012, 12:55:22 PM »
Interesting find, Joe.

I haven't seen David post in quite awhile, I wonder what his position is on the origins these days.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Joe Bausch

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Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #217 on: September 26, 2012, 01:10:56 PM »
Interesting find, Joe.

I haven't seen David post in quite awhile, I wonder what his position is on the origins these days.

I also find it very interesting George.  I found it by accident while looking for early stuff on Apawamis.

'Back in the day' this thread would be another 5 pages long just from that article!   ;) ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #218 on: September 26, 2012, 02:25:17 PM »
Interesting find, Joe.

I haven't seen David post in quite awhile, I wonder what his position is on the origins these days.

George,

Someone on the west coast recently told me that David might be preparing for a TV interview/segment on the upcoming Open in 2013 and that project is taking up all of his time.


Joe Bausch

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Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #219 on: September 26, 2012, 03:32:06 PM »
Interesting find, Joe.

I haven't seen David post in quite awhile, I wonder what his position is on the origins these days.

George,

Someone on the west coast recently told me that David might be preparing for a TV interview/segment on the upcoming Open in 2013 and that project is taking up all of his time.


What does David know about Muirfield and the Open Championship in 2013?  I'm all ears.   ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #220 on: September 26, 2012, 04:06:32 PM »
Joe,

Cute.

I suspect that there are those who find David's point of views interesting and meritorious.

Joe Bausch

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Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #221 on: September 26, 2012, 04:18:06 PM »
I suspect that there are those who find David's point of views interesting and meritorious.

I'm quite confident your statement above is correct.  This "Dunn vs Davis" Shinny work is excellent.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2012, 04:37:47 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sven Nilsen

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Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #222 on: December 01, 2015, 12:36:44 PM »
I was reticent to drag this thread off of the scrap heap, due to the heated nature of the exchange it contains.  But there's a good deal of measured analysis and solid research here, to which I think the following article contributes.

After reading this thread, the question that stands out is when did Shinnecock go from its first 9 holes (with an additional 9 hole women's course) to its 12 hole iteration, and who was responsible for that work.  The 1891 article posted by David early in the thread clearly notes that Davis laid out 9 holes during his first visit (when he was on site for 5 weeks).  The 1893 map of the course also posted earlier clearly notes a 12 hole course.

The attached June 20, 1892 article from The Times-Picayune contains a description of the course, which still has 9 holes.  Combine this article with the reports that Davis did not come back to Shinnecock after his initial visit (as alluded to in the article posted by Joe Bausch above), and you're left with the conclusion that the additional 3 holes must have been added by Dunn, assumedly prior to the drawing of the 1893 plan.  The full 18 hole course would open in 1895, as covered at the time when discussing the famous match between Dunn and Willie Park.



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #223 on: December 01, 2015, 04:00:27 PM »
Sven,

I'm not sure I read into the Bausch article that Davis never returned to Shinnecock after his initial stint?   Certainly being located in Newport in those years he wasn't all that far away.   You may be correct, of course, but I don't see evidence in that specific article.  What are you seeing that I'm not?  Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 04:09:31 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Origins of Golf in the Shinnecock Hills, A Confused History
« Reply #224 on: December 01, 2015, 04:41:57 PM »
Sven,

I'm not sure I read into the Bausch article that Davis never returned to Shinnecock after his initial stint?   Certainly being located in Newport in those years he wasn't all that far away.   You may be correct, of course, but I don't see evidence in that specific article.  What are you seeing that I'm not?  Thanks.

I'm seeing that the next time he came back was to go to Newport, around which time Dunn was already at Shinnie.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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