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TEPaul

How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« on: December 21, 2010, 11:40:04 AM »
Those very well may be age old questions!

Is there a right way and a wrong way to look at History?

To answer that question, I would use the technique of another age old determinant answer with its inherent ironical twist------eg. Yes AND No!  ;)


Some say----- 1. History should be presented precisely as it occured, even warts and all, and with its often incumbent political incorrectnesses and cultural and social embarrassments or even shock value. Presented that way any reader can and should make up his own mind about what it all might've meant to and through the passage of time and events afterwards!

Others say---- 2. History should be presented somewhat more in a "what-if" framework----viz. we should cast it so that we can learn to not repeat its perceived mistakes or to make better present and future decisions. Presented this way, I feel we unfortunately too often tend to revise historical events into what we think they should have been and not enough of what they really were.

Personally, my thought has been that #1 is primary and should come first or perhaps even be the extent of the presentation. Or if done that way perhaps get into #2 next and somewhat separately, but that history's presentations should never be just #2 and not #1 or some minimization and distortion of #1.

What do you think?




Tom MacWood

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Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2010, 11:53:07 AM »
History is about documenting what occured. To my knowledge no historian believes #2 is the primary purpose. I think you are confused or distorting what David McCullough has said about the subject.

SL_Solow

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Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2010, 12:16:43 PM »
Historians do their best to look at primary sources.  Reporting the primary sources is the closest we can do to reporting "what happened".  Of course, to the extent primary sources are missing or have only been maintained by one side of an issue there may be distortions.  Anyone attempting to summarize or organize that which can be learned from the primary sources necessarily adds at least some degree of interpretive bias.  So long as that bias is acknowledged and explained there is nothing wrong with it.  We learn by taking facts and trying to interpret them.  Hence the various schools of historical interpretation ranging from "climatological" to "great man" to Marxist" interpretations.  Where one goes wrong is where one distorts the underlying data, the primary sources, in order to try to justify one's theory.  I leave it to others to relate this to our historical debates about GCA.

Peter Pallotta

Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2010, 12:51:09 PM »
Of course, then there's also the matter of interpretation - so the question becomes "How do we/should we intepret the source material" or even more fundamentally "What are the various methods of intepretation, and what are their strengths and weaknesses".  Do we focus on the extant texts themselves ('textual criticism"), and/or on the history and sources of those texts, and/or on the implied or explicit 'narrative' that those texts taken together seem to be creating, and/or on the context of the social/cultural atmosphere and assumptions within which those texts were written etc.  I'm not sure so much detail/thought is required for a study of gca -- the challenges there may be mainly in finding more and more of the original texts.  But I think it is worth noting that historians do look at texts -- and at their own approaches to that looking -- in different ways.  I think that multi-facted approach (and that hermeneutics) helps dedicated historians to make sure that they are not finding in history only what they want to find, or mostly what their hidden or not so hidden biases lead them to find.

Peter  
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 12:59:52 PM by PPallotta »

George Pazin

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Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 01:12:40 PM »
Imho, this is a deceptive problem. My initial reaction is to say 100% #1, but the more I read on here (and elsewhere), the more I realize it is almost impossible to separate the presentation of facts and the interpretation of them. And really, when you get down to it, it's the interpretation of facts that present most of the challenge.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JC Jones

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Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 01:38:42 PM »
At. Paul,

You forgot to ask, why should we look at history.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Bradley Anderson

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Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 02:57:36 PM »
How should we look at history?

I think it should be approached with an attitude of humility. Just when you think you have a clear picture of the way it was, you discover a document that you were not aware of. And the picture changes.

Those of us who are interested in history would all get along a lot better if we could be humble about the process.

The fact is, none of us except Patrick were around for a lot of what is discussed on here, and so we really should cooperate. 



 

Mac Plumart

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Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2010, 04:26:37 PM »
Tom P.

I think you are touching on a VERY important topic.  There is a group of you guys on this site that take historical fact finding extremely seriously.  For this reason, I think it is vital that this site and/or the group of the historical fact finders establish a standard operating procedure for documenting the findings.  This SOP needs to be in lock step with the accepted SOP of bona fide historians.  Academics, PhD's, and the like need to be contacted and this process needs to be hashed out.  There is so much potential for great findings regarding your guys work, but without a legitimate and universally accepted process...I fear a lot of it will be wasted.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

TEPaul

Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2010, 05:32:29 PM »
Mac:

You're probably right there. There probably should be some form of documentation referral for the things some of us write. Traditionally with serious works the author uses a form of a bibliography, foot notes or some similar form of citation that simply refers to what their sources are for what they are writing about as they get to various points, events, people etc.

There are some on here who seem to believe that one should not make historical points as fact unless they include in their work the sum total of their source material as well within their work or in their bibliography, foot notes or citations. In my opinion, that was never done in the past and does not need to be in the future. A referral or citation should do it; it always has in the past.

I think the problem with those on here who suggest the foregoing is they just don't want to be bothered to have to go to where the source material is reposited that logically should be part of the referral or citation, to check its veracity.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 05:34:45 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2010, 06:43:49 PM »
TEPaul,
I'll give you an example of going to the source and coming up without anything useful.

A while ago I played a course that I believed had quite a few holes that were built by someone who knew what they were doing. I talked to people at the club and at the local historical society and no one had any idea of who the architect was, but the club seemed to be content in the belief that it was some of the founding members who were responsible.

Fast forward a couple of years: After 'mining' it for a long time Joe Bausch shared a source of information in which I found several references from various sources and times that mentioned Travis as having designed at least 5 holes for them. The material I found was passed along to the Travis Society and they considered it as enough evidence to add the course to his list of accomplishments. While searching around for info on this club I found many other articles, cross referenced by articles from different sources, that revealed the work of Travis at other previously unknown places, and the same thing for a half dozen previously unknown works by Emmet.

I'm not saying that this works in every case, but even the North Shore attribution owes much to the efforts of outside investigation, another club that didn't have the correct info in their hands.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 06:55:54 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sean_A

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Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2010, 08:01:32 PM »
There is no history without interpretation.  Necessarily, the facts must be interpreted because facts in and of themselves are often not terribly revealing.  Think of a motive in crime and its much easier to piece a puzzle together, but its also easy to rely too heavily on motive at the expense of fact.  Fact and interpretation are like a hand in a glove. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Carl Rogers

Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2010, 08:57:06 PM »
I think option 2 needs to be brought into the discussion when major turning points come into view.

Example:
the Reformation ...
If the Reformation did not occur, what might have been the course of History?  An engrossing and difficult topic for sure.

Another facet .... Art History
It is a generally accepted tenant that when one dominant style replaces another dominant style, the previous style is looked upon with great derision.  Later, this opinion generally softens.  Witness this site for instance and its collective opinion of RTJ.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2010, 11:08:14 PM »
There is no history without interpretation.  Necessarily, the facts must be interpreted because facts in and of themselves are often not terribly revealing.  Think of a motive in crime and its much easier to piece a puzzle together, but its also easy to rely too heavily on motive at the expense of fact.  Fact and interpretation are like a hand in a glove. 

Ciao

Very good point...why even care about history otherwise.

TEPaul

Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2010, 11:19:46 PM »
"There is no history without interpretation.  Necessarily, the facts must be interpreted because facts in and of themselves are often not terribly revealing.  Think of a motive in crime and its much easier to piece a puzzle together, but its also easy to rely too heavily on motive at the expense of fact.  Fact and interpretation are like a hand in a glove."


Sean:

That is a fine post and extremely fine thoughts and analogy.

But we may need to take care not to assign events in history some connotation that some crime has been committed somehow, either back then or later. This may be what some on this website too easily attempt to do for reasons they do not even understand. And that is why I always like to try to put an historical event into the context of its own time, not ours. ;)


RSLivingston_III

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Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2010, 11:26:39 PM »
I know I am biased as I like to study history but I do it because I see it as being important. The part I find hard is in interperiting what is said because of a lack of understanding of some of the words or terms used. Many things were left undocumented because they were considered common knowledge and they didn't know they would be important one day. These possibly important details were left to fade into oblivion.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 05:22:15 PM by RSLivingston_III »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

TEPaul

Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2010, 11:30:30 PM »
"...why even care about history otherwise."


There are obviously incredibly diverse and multiple reasons why people care about history.

One of the most interesting reasons I've seen in my lifetime is actually Ralph Lauren (Ralph Lipschitz). He turned his interest and expertise in an aspect of history into a 35 years enduring fashion cycle and a billion dollar industry.

Oh, well that's just one aspect; let's not forget about Willie Campbell and the fact that for some reason Myopia neglected to record or mention him. It must have been all 28 year Atlantic Monthly editor and Myopia history book writer, Edward Weeks's fault. He tried to do the research and get it right but all he did was produce a work of total fiction!
 
 

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2010, 11:33:59 PM »
Maybe Myopia got pissed when Willie jumped clubs...
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 06:04:15 PM by RSLivingston_III »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Phil_the_Author

Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2010, 12:53:39 PM »
Ralph,

You stated, "I'm not saying that this works in every case, but even the North Shore attribution owes much to the efforts of outside investigation, another club that didn't have the correct info in their hands."

While that is true, the "correct information" was not in their hands, it was still the official board minutes that gave it. It was not a newspaper or magazine article but rather the private documents that had been given to a public institution for safekeeping and a source for study.

It would be wonderful for researchers if every golf club did that, but even in this case it wasn't the golf club that did it, but rather the mother organization that was formed by them to create the North Shore Golf Club.

Why is that important to this discussion? Because the branch of historical study of golf course architecture is not even in its infancy, but is still but a day-old newborn for the most part. Most researchers have limited themselves to searching either old newspaper or magazine databases to seek information because access to the personal records and information at specific golf clubs is almost never granted. It is private and they want it kept that way. If North Shore had those records at the club itself and the Board of Governors felt comfortable enough with the perceived history as had been presented for a number of years, than no one would have been granted access to them and it is highly doubtful that anyone at the club would have searched through them for proof of something they thought they already knew.

Why that is important is that it shows that newspaper and magazine articles can’t necessarily provide the detailed information to answer the types of historical questions that we today are interested in.

It also shows how a proper search can uncover the truth of what happened, yet rarely will it provide the REASONS WHY it did. In this case, WHY was RAYNOR chosen when they could just have easily hired a Tillinghast or Ross or Emmet or any one of a number of others. That information isn’t contained in those notes and almost never is at other clubs.

Finally, it shows how important it is to have a relationship with members of a club of whose history one wants to study. ACCESS IS EVERYTHING! The nature, especially where it has become highly adversarial and unprofessional, of a number of specific club historical discussions has created an atmosphere at many historically important clubs that are now preventing such access to being granted. These clubs simply do not want to be part of a nasty public debate, nor should they be.

So then, in answer to Tom’s original question, one can only decide how to look at the history that one has been given access to. This may be through published format such as book or article or in a private setting such as access to private club records. It is therefore imperative that we get a grip on ourselves here at gca.com and ALL begin to show a professional maturity in these discussion or soon no one will be allowed access to any club’s personal and private records regardless of how well-intentioned the researcher or historian is.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2010, 05:19:19 PM »
Ralph,

You stated, "I'm not saying that this works in every case, but even the North Shore attribution owes much to the efforts of outside investigation, another club that didn't have the correct info in their hands."


Philip,

I can't find that quote you attribute to me.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2010, 06:05:39 PM by RSLivingston_III »
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Phil_the_Author

Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2010, 05:36:30 PM »
Ralph,

There is an easy explanation for that as you didn't make it! This is the second mistake I've made quoting someone today! It was Jim Kennedy who made it.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2010, 07:53:13 PM »
Ralph, Phil,
I stand by my quote!  ;)

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil_the_Author

Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2010, 10:05:52 PM »
Jim,

I didn't disagree with anything you said, rather I agreed with it. I simply brought the reality of what is invovled in most situations in trying to unravel the beginnings of specific golf clubs.

The biggest problem with golf club histories is that they are always written for people who believe they already know what happened and why. As a result, many specific details and facts either get left out or are not explained in a manner that brings an undertsnading to those who look into what they say 25, 50 and more years later. Interpretation should never be involved in understanding ghistory if it is written and recorded properly. Unfortunately it usually is written and recorded with a bias that requires future researchers to have to interpret in order to attempt an understanding. That bias can be everything from a desire to see a viewpoint protected to something as simple as telling it in a manner that can only be understood by someone who was actually there because of what was left out...

JC Urbina

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Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2010, 12:32:05 AM »
TE Paul

It's not only how we perceive history that's important but what's really interesting is who is writing the history that we are looking at.


I have observed your debates with others on this board about the history of golf design and I always find it interesting that your discussions center on written text like it's the gospel when in fact we don't know how factual that written history really is.



Kyle Harris

Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2010, 08:17:48 AM »
I think one situation researchers seem to find themselves in is that of the false connection of concurrent facts.

Just because things are happening contemporaneously does not mean they need to make sense in respect to each other.

TEPaul

Re: How do we look at History? How should we look at History?
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2010, 09:18:30 AM »
"I have observed your debates with others on this board about the history of golf design and I always find it interesting that your discussions center on written text like it's the gospel when in fact we don't know how factual that written history really is."



Jim:

In my opinion, THAT is essentially what historical analysis and reanalysis is all about! In that vein, I look at written text of the past in at least two ways;

1. Written text that expresses opinion.
2. Written text that records an historic event and particularly contemporaneously such as club board and committee meeting minutes or the diary and such of a direct participant.



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