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Jay Flemma

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Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« on: December 21, 2010, 06:12:06 PM »
http://www.daily-times.com/ci_16889912

According to the article, rounds are down:

 Piñon Hills has seen almost 10,000 fewer rounds played compared with six years ago.

# 2005: 42,799

# 2006: 41,180

# 2007: 39,607

# 2008: 39,043

# 2009: 37,217

# 2010*: 33,170

*Rounds through Dec 2.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 06:15:48 PM by Jay Flemma »
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Doug Wright

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Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2010, 08:03:03 PM »
Not a big deficit and an easy fix; seems like the operators are acting responsibly. Although the non-resident rates have ratcheted by a lot in the past 10 years from the highly touted $19, raise the rates posted below by $3 and balance the budget.

Green Fees, Carts, Annual Passes, & Driving Range Rates
Effective 6/1/10
San Juan County, New Mexico Resident Rates
18 Hole Weekday-$26.00
18 Hole Weekend-$30.00
9 Hole Weekday-$17.00
9 Hole Weekend-$20.00

Non Resident Rates
18 Hole Weekday-$41.00
18 Hole Weekend-$47.00
9 Hole Weekday-$30.00
9 Hole Weekend-$32.00

Twitter: @Deneuchre

Steve_ Shaffer

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Adam Clayman

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Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2010, 09:25:04 PM »
Many reasons are likely responsible for the stats Jay has presented. Attitude of the city towards their customer being primary. And the lack of any nurturing of a golf culture, either through tournaments or other golf related activities commonplace in most other regions.

The cost of the water is likely not one of the reasons either. The downward trend in rounds played at PH has been going on longer than the price of water has gone up. But it is a clue into part and parcel of the ignorance found in those powers that be, wanting the golf course lush green.

Prices going up is also not too much of a factor, because in comparison, and when considering value, it is still very cheap and a great value.

It's entirely possible that the changes made to the course's gca, over the years, has had a enough of a negative impact on attracting and inspiring golfers to return, repeatedly.

 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

David_Tepper

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Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2010, 09:32:37 PM »
Realistically, how long is the golf season there? 6 months? 8 months? 10 months?

Andy Troeger

Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2010, 09:40:02 PM »
Farmington really is in the middle of nowhere. Not only is it not close to any population centers, its also not really on the way to anywhere either. Most of its rounds would seem to have to come from locals. Even from Albuquerque, I don't really see a lot of reason to drive almost 3 hours to Farmington when I can play Black Mesa or Paa-Ko Ridge both of which are far better IMO. Pinon Hills is probably better than anything else in the state, but the gap between it and places like Twin Warriors, UNM, Cochiti, Sandia, and Santa Ana isn't worth the drive. When asked about recommendations for those visiting, I usually recommend those other local courses to avoid a bunch of extra driving.

David,
The golf season is probably close to year-round. There are certainly days when the course won't be playable due to snow, but I would guess there are days in December/January/February when the course is open for play. Adam would know better on that part.

astavrides

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Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2010, 11:22:41 PM »
What Andy said.

I think Pinon predates a lot of those courses, so the choices and competition have increased over the years.

Morgan Clawson

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Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2010, 12:43:35 AM »
I concur with Andy.

I played Pinon Hills in the late 90s when it 1st hit the radar because it was a 5 star course (Golf Digest) and only cost $12. They charged us an extra $3 a round to make tee times in advance. It was a ton of fun and obviously a great deal.

But, that was before Pakko and Black Mesa. I hope to play those 2 this spring. We won't go up to Farmington because it's too far to drive.  Paako and Black Mesa are much closer and there is better night life in Santa Fe.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2010, 09:29:55 AM »
David, As Andy said, as long as there is no snow cover, golf is playable year round.

When I lived there, I gave up on trying to convince anyone that the place was over watered. It became obviously futile when prior to a men's club meeting, I asked the question "do you guys think this place is over watered?" and was met with a response that only a former Government employee could consider discussion worthy "I'd vote against that". Of course the guy was a decent golfer and happened to be a GD panelist.

I resigned my self to enjoying golf there much more in the winter months, when the system was turned off and the ball would bounce and roll like it was on steroids.

I do disagree with Andy and others who feel Pinon's design is not better than Paa Ko Ridge. IMO, it is likely Ken Dye's best work, but I have not seen them all. I do know that PH basically put Ken Dye on the map, and when he was building it, he put his entire heart and soul into the place. He was so meticulous about every detail, he fired a shaper because he wasn't doing what Ken wanted, as it pertained to fairway shaping.

When played n the proper configuration. Pinon Hills is a great example of how a courses ebb and flow can be felt, compared to how it plays in it's reverse config.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2010, 10:19:42 AM »
I thought the drive from ABQ to Farmington was pretty cool.
Visiting Adam was icing on the cake.    :)
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2010, 10:29:41 AM »
PH is a wonderful course for the then prevailing price.  I don't know about the local politics, but the course was heavily over-watered during the fairly dry period of my only visit.  Are there other new courses in the area which might account for the loss of rounds?  Didn't Baxter add another nine somewhere nearby, or was it over by Black Mesa?

Jay Flemma

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Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2010, 01:02:16 PM »
Farmington really is in the middle of nowhere. Not only is it not close to any population centers, its also not really on the way to anywhere either. Most of its rounds would seem to have to come from locals. Even from Albuquerque, I don't really see a lot of reason to drive almost 3 hours to Farmington when I can play Black Mesa or Paa-Ko Ridge both of which are far better IMO. Pinon Hills is probably better than anything else in the state, but the gap between it and places like Twin Warriors, UNM, Cochiti, Sandia, and Santa Ana isn't worth the drive. When asked about recommendations for those visiting, I usually recommend those other local courses to avoid a bunch of extra driving.

David,
The golf season is probably close to year-round. There are certainly days when the course won't be playable due to snow, but I would guess there are days in December/January/February when the course is open for play. Adam would know better on that part.

Andy, with great respect, I'm going to disagree.  Pinon is a terrific price, even for non-residents.  It's a better design than UNM South and Twin Warriors.

Also, though there isn't much other golf around there, it's right on the way to Mesa Verde and Canyon of the Ancients.  Mesa Verde is one of the seven ancient wonders of the Western Hemisphere - the others being Teotihuacan, Chichen Itza, Palenque, Copan, Tikal, and Machu Micchu - and Canyon of the Ancients is a wondrous hikiing destination!
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Matt_Ward

Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 01:07:48 PM »
Lou:

I agree w you -- the overwatering problem is certainly something that needs to be addressed. I've been to Pinon on three occasions and save for the first time -- it was overly moist and it didn't come from the sky !

Unfortunately, this seems to be an issue with quite a few other NM courses in the southwest. Firm turf is deemed to be a "problem" because people want ball marks to be visibly seen.

Thankfully, Black Mesa doesn't have this issue and from what I have heard a major correction to the watering issue has been carried out at UNM / Championship. There's a course that gets far too little attention as a quality Red Lawrence design.

Jay:

Have to disagree with you on UNM / Pinon. See what UNM has become through a much smarter maintenance program. Red Lawrence deserves far more credit than simply designing the likes of Desert Forest.

Andy Troeger

Re: Pinon Hills facing issues according to article
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2010, 10:42:04 PM »
Jay,
I think you interpreted my post in a manner a bit differently from what I intended. The four corners area certainly has some interesting sites including what you mentioned. Durango is a neat town and only 45 minutes away. I can certainly see reasons for making the visit. However, I think for non-golf activities you'll still find that most folks would rather go to Santa Fe, Taos, or Chama. And you just don't stumble across Farmington by accident! 

I would tend to agree that Pinon is better than Twin Warriors or UNM. However, its not so much better to be worth driving three hours to see it instead of one of the other two. And the price between Pinon and UNM isn't that significant anymore.

Adam,
We can agree to disagree on the Paa-Ko/Pinon debate, but I think its fair to say that most golfers have the perception of Paa-Ko as a better destination course, perhaps because of the scenery or the magazine rankings as much as the actual design. Golf Digest currently has Paa-Ko at #1 with Pinon out of the top ten. I think that's well off and that they should be #2 and #3, but I still don't think its close.

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