Tilly's Shackamaxon up for sale...

[Steve Lapper]

Paul,

   I'll answer differently than Matt. Christie did inherit a $11Bn shortfall and instead of making it a $14+Bn shortfall he told the public service unions to take a hike. Was this politically benign or righteously fair? I'll leave that answer for others to decide, but he did do what he said he was going to do and is perfectly prepared to accept the political consequences for it. That's a heck of a lot more genuine and honest than can be said of the majority of his predecessors.

  I didn't vote for the man (took the independent, Chris Daggett), but ran into our new Governor and his family several times this past fall(we live 3 miles from each other), finally culminating with a 30 min sit-down for coffee at a local Starbucks (following seeing the same movie in a theatre steps away). He struck me, and my wife whose perception skills vastly outweigh mine, as an incredibly honest and real guy who is secure enough with himself to take the lonely path of taking on the bloated budgets and longer-term problems of our State.  He abhors waste and is determined to try to reign in the outlandish entitlement programs that lavish excessive pensions and benefits onto the public service sector. Is he right to specifically attack the school supervisors and tenured teachers? I'm not enough of an expert to say, but his ideas on merging the disparate fiefdoms that pass for our repetitive townships and boroughs are refreshing. His willingness to abandon political correctness to achieve his goals is admirable. He seems to be a very decent family-oriented guy (his wife and kids teased him mercilessly about his weight in front of others and he takes it with good humor). He has my vote going forward.

   In todays world with all the power-hungry and financially corrupted politicians that pass for our legislators and executives, I'll take an refreshingly honest and decent guy like him all day, even if I don't believe in all of his policies or philosophies!

Matt,

   As Sheldon said, Shack might stay alive for a short-term, as an ongoing golf entity, but eventually (and inevitably) it will fail again and find itself the subject of a heated battle between public and private hands.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SL Solow,

The chapter 11 issue only works if you can get rid of all the debt.
About two months ago they were down to about 138 members with plenty of debt.

Slapper, I tend to agree with you.
As to development, stating that development would be high density condos is disengenuous.
Shack sits in a fairly nice neighborhood of single family homes.
Site wise, there are water issues, but plenty of single family homes could be built on that property, although, not in this market.

Shackamaxon is an interesting study, a study in how dumping money into a clubhouse, a dysfunctional clubhouse, over and over again can ruin a golf course.

If you look at the photo of the 9th green, one of the first island greens in the U.S., you can see the old clubhouse, which I believe burned down.  The replacement clubhouse NEVER worked well and was redone and/or added to several times.  Had they replicated or created a mini-replica they would have been far better off.

If there's a lesson to be learned, it's that clubs should AVOID DEBT at all costs.

If there's a second lesson to be learned, it's that you shouldn't pour good money after bad when financing clubhouses, or functionality should trump glitz. 

As to Trump, many members have transfered to Trump and other courses.
When you look at where Shack drew their membership from, Trump is a good alternative for many of them.

It's unfortunate as Shack's a nice golf course.

As to penison liabilities, NY State's NON-NYC pension liabilities are about to go from roughly 3 billion to 16 billion over the next few years.

Driving business away won't fix that.
Raising taxes on those who make $ 200,000 or more won't pay for that.

Like the ball, there has to be a rollback, and 20 and out, with triple overtime the last two years to retire on more than you made, has to be revised and eliminated.

You can't allow people to contribute $ 100,000 and take out $ 3,000,000, with the excess funding coming from taxpayors.

But, back to Shack.

Mortgaging the future did them in.  Bad decisions, decisions to enjoy the facility today but pay for it in the future killed Shack.

The leadership AND the membership is to blame

PAY AS YOU GO IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I don't live in NJ, in fact live a long way from it.  However in the you tubes I view the Gov attempts to make it clear his problem is not with teachers or school supervisors, it is with their union and union leaders who repeatedly vilify him publicly.

This club must remain, it has a great name!

[Phil_the_Author]

Lynn,

Not only does it have a great name it has an even better golf course!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I'm to figure out how Shackamaxon moved from Philly to NJ. As we learned in 4th or 5th grade social studies class in elementary school, at least in Philly, Wm. Penn signed a treaty with the Native Americans under an elm  tree near the Delaware River in the Shackamaxon section of what is now Philly. It's now known as Penn Treaty Park and Shackamaxon Street starts there and wends into Fishtown and Kensington where yours truly grew up.



http://www.penntreatymuseum.org/treaty.php

The founder of Shackamaxon, Robert Nelson, probably had a  Philly connection somewhere in his travels or perhaps Tilly,a Philadelphian, suggested the name to him.

http://shackamaxoncc.com/getattachment/Golf/Shack-History-Complete-pdf.pdf.aspx

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Let me refresh your memory or add to it if I may ...

Christie beats up on the teacher's union because it leans democratic in many situations - including its support for Corzine in the last election. The NJEA also has more women and minorities so it's e-z for our Mendham mansion Governor to complain about them. For some reason he fails to mention what police and fire get paid and why there's a need to have 70 police chiefs -- that's right -- 70 police chiefs in Bergen County -- some towns have guys in police uniforms driving fully loaded SUV's and make easily more than $150,000. I never hear Christie talk about this.

Steve, you either don't know, don't care or simply believe in the spin coming from trenton these days. The $3.1 pension payment the Governor should have provided -- was postponed and it only grows more and more. Instead of handling health care and pension costs the Governor makes deals at the last minute with weak-kneed legislative leaders and then proclaims victory. Is he for real or what ?
At least Corzine set aside $$ to pay some of that pension obligation.

Glad to hear you voted for Daggett -- I wish more folks like him would come forward. Please realize  am not giving a pass to Demo legisllative leaders who have stalled critical legislation needed to make NJ worthwhile as a place to live. Christie is all noise -- he bullies people at-will.

Life is nice Steve out in the exurbs -- Christie needs to take a tour of the places on the front lines -- see firsthand what people are facing and understand the full dimension. I credit Christie for opening the door on a few topics but he needs to get people together at the table and that takes more than making noise.

 

[Bruce Katona]

As the bafflying world of real estate develpment is my chosen profession, there is a way to skin this cat cat so both sides get a piece of fur, but it takes compromise, discussion & a mutual vision by all partries involed to keep the asset as an operating golf course.  the bank will near to forgive a large piece of the debt, the town give on zoning and the next party in line to hold title provide some things the first two want to get this done.

If not, there will be a fallow golf course sitting growing weeds while this winds its way through the court system and thesituation will be resolved in some manner similar to what is described above.

The fiscal crisis in NJ is similar, but perhaps not quite a dire as what CA & NY face, but it is a mess made by many past Chief executives of the State, not just the previous office holder.  Gov. Christie could have just ducked the problem and tried to be a 2 term governor, but chose to begin the process of fixing the problem in a school yard fashion - take on the biggest bully in the yard (public employee unions and the NJEA) and either beat them or have them join your side.  Fiscal responsibility needs to happen some time or the State will be insolvent.


I wish the Governor well as he has begun to right the fiscal ship of the state and has the backbone to take the heat as the "buck stops on his desk"

[Matt_Ward]

Bruce:

Christie attacks the NJEA because they didn't support him in the past election.

Do you see that ?

He doesn't say the same vitriol to the cops and firemen. Does NJ really need 70 individual police chiefs in Bergen County -- all making in excess of $150,000 -- some very much higher -- and many driving a taxpayer-bought SUV with all the bells and whistles as they go about fighting crime in such tough towns as Demarest, Closter, Alpine, Park Ridge, etc, etc, etc.

Let me restate it again -- when the bill for pensions hit Christie's desk -- $3.1 billion -- he opted NOT TO PAY ONE CENT while requiring municipalities like mine and others to pay their FULL SHARE !!! 87% of our increase on the muni side last year went to pay pension contributions. The Governor cries out loud for all to hear -- that he inherited an $11 billion deficit but he then decides to punt $3.1 billion into the future -- resulting in more $$ to be paid plus the interest on it. Is anyone keeping their eyes really open or is it the love of tough rhetoric that enthralls so many?

Let me also point out Demo leaders in the Legislature have failed too. Let me point out the following for others to understand what really happens at ground zero for many towns in NJ. A family health plan for muni workers cost $20,000 in 2008 in my town. Two years later the bill is now over $25,000. At this rate in two years it grows to $30,000. How much do they contribute? Try a miserly 1.5%. The Governor and Legislature have failed to increase this percentage all the while mugging for the cameras when they got a long anticipated and much delayed reform on binding arbitration for police and fire salaries -- the highest in the naiton I might add.

Amazingly, the former US Attorney can use the teachers as a whipping post while the public sfety folks get a freer pass.

[Steve Lapper]

Matt,

   Nowhere in my post did I say that Christie wasn't a partisan politician and the very definition of partisanship is to advocate your side of the political coin and hone your attacks on the flip side. What I did note was Chrisite's idea to efficiently reduce  and enjoin the excessive and redundant fiefdoms throughout the state was pushing against the entrenched interests of both Republican and Democratic interests. Your rant about overpaid fire and police chiefs isn't at all wrong, but any solution is embedded in this township/borough reduction and that is an avowed position for Christie. Here in the land of the souped-up Fuzzmobile, I too support such a thinning of the herd, but think it should go unilaterally across EVERY public sector and union entitlement. Outside of my self-funded retirement plans, nobody is guaranteeing me any pension or lifetime health care. While I don't begrudge a public sector employee some retirement benefits, why should these union members have the opportunity to retire at full (or higher) salaries and benefits on my (or your) dime?

   You can accuse me of lots of things, but ignorance, disbelief, or lack of caring aren't among them. The Governor's postponed pension payment (like his refusal to perpetuate the 3rd Hudson River Tunnel) was a blunt force instrument designed to yield it's intended result: a vow to act towards reducing the State's budget deficit. While you are entitled to your opinion over who should be his primary target, the mere fact that he, unlike his predecessors, is taking definitive action to avoid expanding the deficit. He's not pushing silly plans to sell off the state's infrastructure and instead attacking exactly the multipliers that so endanger our financial future.

   Interestingly, recently polls reflect an OVERWHELMING increase in approvals for his positions among independents and traditional state democrats....not exactly his base constituencies. Would you doubt that if he ran for election today, he'd win by a landslide? The guy has plugged into a primal wave of voter discontent with bloated budgets and enlarged entitlements.  Like it or not, this is the new majority and its growing all the time. I have small children and should they wish to remain in NJ, I want a solvent state to greet them over the future decades.

   Taunt me with the lifestyle of exurbs, but save your pontification for someone who doesn't understand today's geographic mobility. No one is stopping you from moving here (please try to ignore this fact ), or living elsewhere than Clifton. Our fire chiefs and EMTs here are part-time or volunteers and our police force is certainly overpaid, but at least friendly and helpful. Our schools are wonderful, but its hardly due to exorbitantly paid superintendents and teachers (No one here in our system is making $300k+ like they do in Bergen and Hudson counties). Our surroundings are bucolic, the over-commercialization and densities of Passaic County absent, but why is it that my substantial taxes should support any public sector waste? Yet, like you, they do.

   Finally, in the short time I had to get to know the man in office behind that girth, he impressed me with his honesty, decency and resolve. Having known Jon Corzine for sometime throughout my past career, (and he is a decent and mostly honest guy), never did he exhibit the resolve to try to expose himself to the, business or political, heat of making the tough long-term oriented decision at the risk of nearer-term dismay. Such is the character of a leader our government(s) so sorely needs these days.

[Steve Lapper]

Part 2,

   Matt...have you seen the now-playing film "Waiting for Superman?" It is a devastatingly honest and upsetting documentary about the failings of the American school system. Before you go off and defend the NJEA and teacher's union, do yourself a favor and see it and think about how well these present educational bureaucracies serve our nation's children.  I'll bet you have some second thoughts about school funding efficiencies after viewing this gem. Be sure to let us know, as there are many out here on GCA who've always believed you are impossible to educate or influence....

 

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

I'm happy you are impressed with Christie. It's a free country and you can assess him in whatever manner you wish.

When you speak about the inability to be educated or influenced --  I base my assertions on having been on the front lines.

I'm not here to defend the NJEA -- they have massive issues and as a former BOE member and past president in my own community of nearly 80,000 I understand fully how tenure, school choice and other such topics have long been pushed aside. Let's be a bit more elastic shall we. The Governor's actions on NJEA are purely a political payback from the last election.

What's unsaid is how the Governor failed to take account of his adminstrations' fumbling of the ball in order to get $400 million from the Feds to deal with education. What's Christie's answer? Blame his past Commissioner of Education by throwing him under the bus and then blaming Obama. First rate leadership indeed.

Does he ever mention how high salaries and benefits are for cops and firemen? He loves to beat up on what superintendents make and I have no issue with that -- be sure to mention the chiefs of police who handle "crime" in the exurbs and are making well over $150,000 with a generous payout when retirement comes due.

He just agreed to a plan on binding arbitration with the demo leadership in the legislature that he initially said was full of holes -- as in Swiss cheese but he still signed it ! How bout calling the Legislature into special session to deal with escalating health care costs and pension liabilties that I previously mentioned. Why the delay from both sides of the aisle? Oh, I forgot -- this is the Governor who touts the $11 billion deficit when he came in and he balanced the books by punting the $3.1 billion he owes to state workers and says the system is broken. All the while local towns have to pay their 100% share. Makes perfect sense to me.

Steve, let me help you out -- I've served in a range of different local positions -- elected ones mind you at that. I'm happy to change my mind but I change my mind based on real substance and applied through the prism of the total picture -- not by picking out scape goats and labeling them as the prime culprit on what's so wrong with NJ.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Here's my response to your longer post ... thanks for illuminating your thoughts.

How amusing - you see my responses as a "rant" - I see them very differently -- understanding what really goes on in the front lines of local government which is the closest to the citizens itself.

Christie RARELY speaks about the bloated salaries on the public safety side. You know why? Simple. He sees this constituency as part of his base since his time as US Attorney. Check it out -- 70 police chiefs in Bergen County ! If Starbucks had an operation of a similar type they would likely have a district manager for the entire area and pay them a fraction of the costs.

Steve, I agree on major overhaul of health and pension costs. But the issue is how Christie uses his bully pulpit. He's more the "bully" than anything else. How bout this -- the Governor knows the total unfunded liability of the pensions is growing quickly -- $87 billion and growing thanks to his spineless punt of the last bill of $3.1 billion. How bout he announces that all previous recipients of pensions will now have to contribute to its solvency -- not just the new hires? How about he contributes his share instead of talking one way out of his mouth for localities and doing something completely different when the bill is at the state side of things?

Talk about polls -- ok -- check out the numbers who see him as a divisive figure -- hellbent on demonizing people instead of bringing people together. You call that leadership.

I am not here to defend Corzine and what he failed to do. I do credit him for making payments to the pension system and trying to educate people sensibly on what was needed. Corzine had the oportunity to deal with the public unions but failed to do that. But that doesn't mean one needs to apply a verbal blowtorch to the public debate today.

Landslide?

From the vantage point of Somerset and Morris Counties that may appear so. Try asking the same question in the middle of pack places like Hamilton, Woodbridge, Edison and yes, even places like Clifton. The communities I have mentioned are not the places like Jersey City, Elizabeth or Newark.

Steve, one final point for you to ponder -- NJ has abuot 610 school districts -- 300 of them have 50 or fewer kids. Many of them happen to be in the exurbs and could easily be eliminated for cost effiencies. How bout we include them in the total solution too.

Merry Xmas to you & yours ...



 

 

[Steve Lapper]

Matt,

 So as to honor the purpose and intent of this site, let's take this to a dialogue on PM. I'll respond w/in 24hrs!

 A Merry Christmas to you and yours as well!!

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Will do.

Small correction on my last sentence to you -- 300 school districts in NJ have 500 or fewer kids.

merry xmas to you & yours ...

[Cliff Hamm]

Can't say I've read the whole thread but thought I would chime in.  Read recently that for 7 years  New Jersey lied about pension contributions. Rather than rehash the entire sad saga here is a link: 

http://beforeitsnews.com/story/144/294/Feds,_SEC_Charge_NJ_With_Running_Fraudelent_Municipal_Bond_Ponzi_Scheme.html

It is morally wrong for the state not to make pension contributions and than claim they can't afford pensions.  Think of the logic.  At the same time pension reform is needed nationwide not just in NJ.  But it is wrong to cut pensions for those currently retired.  See interesting article in the NYT today about a town in Alabama where they have stopped paying all pensions.

As to Waiting for Superman.  I have not seen it but have read about it.  I am an advocate for charter schools, rather than vouchers, to give public schools competition.  Unions in schools are both needed but also troublesome and they obstruct efforts at reform.  A sample of five, however, can certainly lead to a biased conclusion.  Again, while I advocate for charter schools keep in mind that the research shows them overall to be no more effective than public schools and in many cases less effective.  They are not a panacea.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Getting back to Shackamxon:

While known as a "Jewish club" today, when it opened in 1916 it was not. As Dr. Bill Quirin wrote in his book, "Shackamaxon is a club that has fallen from the heights then risen from the depths." ..."In the latter part of the 1930s, the membership declined to less than 100 from the high of 350 and the club defaulted on the mortgage and was taken over by its bank. In 1941 it was bought by John Handwerg, a local potato farmer, for $675,000 and for two decades was plagued by bad luck and bad business decisions."...The club was operated as a daily fee course and tried unsuccesfully to sell it to Union County(which instead built Ash Brook GC in 1951)  and attempted to rezone it for housing development but failed there too." ..."In 1952 he converted it back to a private club and built a new club house and the largest club operated swimming pool in NJ." "He leased the club rather than sell it" ..."The club hosted the first ever tour event in NJ in 1955- The Calvacade of Golf. with a $50,000 purse,won by Dr. Cary Middlecoff."... "In 1965, the club was purchased by Phillip J. Levin, a well known lawyer,president of Madison Square Garden and shopping center developer, for $1.2 million,planning to trade it to the nearby Suburban Golf Club in Union in exchange for their property...where he hoped to build a shopping center" "When Suburban turned down his offer, Levin accepted the challenge of restoring Shackamaxon to its former glory." "After spending six years making improvements and reviving the membership, which had dropped below 100, he sold the club  to the members on January 1, 1969 for $2.225 million"  Quirin added "Shackamaxon has prospered since." And now, the cycle has reverted to the depths again.

I presume the club morphed into a "Jewish club" in the 1960s under Levin's ownership. The club's recent decline and now the possibility of sale and the course becoming NLE is yet another example of a "Jewish club" in decline and the possible demise of those clubs formed as result of past discriminatory admission policies. Of course, there are many examples of "historically Jewish clubs" still prospering around the country.

[Matt_Ward]

Cliff:

Not too many years ago through the enlightened leadership of a former Governor -- Christine Todd Whitman (she of the blue blood types who settled NJ long, long ago) decided to borrow day-to-day expenses through a borrowing of the pension funds. Mind you Whitman is a Republican. This nonsense should have been stopped in its tracks but Legislators -- of both parties -- knew that being "honest" and having to go through the regular process in likely raising taxes decided this type of skullduggery was better -- out of sight / out of mind.

In addition, the pension funds were overly rated to be gaining "X" amt of dollars per year when the actual gains made through various investments and the like was far lower. In addition, the Legislature (a Republican one at that) decided to up pension contributions to those retiring by 9% even though there was no set aside of $$ to do just that. Legislators and Governors here in NJ have played the game in currying favor with public sector unions through these ploys and others.

Total unfunded liabilities of the pension system is now at $87 billion. It is growing rapidly and we are also near a time when plenty of people at or near retirement will be looking to capture the $$ they have consistently contributed.

Cliff, the unpleasant reality is that the overall public pension programs in much of the USA could face a Lehman Brothers collapse in the years ahead. The politicians have only tinkered with the overall issues at-hand. Sad to say, but even those who have already retired will need to make some sort of contribution in order to make the overall system whole. No doubt that will go over like a lead balloon and it's why the existing crew of politicians -- of both parties - is loathe to even hint at such a possibility.  

Christie in NJ has pushed for some pension reforms -- but the depth and magnitude of what is at-hand has only been hinted at. Politicians don't want to unravel all of this because they know it's likely quite a few of them could take a direct hit at the polls.

In regards to the school issues -- the teacher unions, at least here in NJ, are operating in a dream world regarding tenure and school choice. The existing tenure system is all about protecting the weakest --rather than promoting the best. NJEA here in NJ needs to realize that so many of the public schools -- many in the urban areas have become nothing more than babysitting mills with babysitters (not teachers) monitoring the room.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

It would be a great shame for NJ golf to lose "Shack."

Frankly, if private action cannot save the club then I would hope the County would see what might be possible. Union County has made some smart moves in bringing on board Kemper to assist with Galloping Hill and Ash Brook -- my God, they both needed it.

Shackamaxon has a few holes of note -- the 9th is always talked about because of the "island" green but the short close -- the 18th is really nicely done too. Not too many years ago Jimmy Dee won a NJ Amateur by draining a mega-long putt to claim the title on that hole. I find it hard to believe that a possible solution to preserve cannot be achieved. Losing a Tillie layout would be a major loss here.

[archie_struthers]

 

Here is the problem with our government once again.  The NJEA has become the 500 pound parrot in the room. There focus is more money
\ than education, unfortunately. This does not mean I don't think teachers are good and important ..but the NJEA ...ugh


Does anyone think for one moment if Corzine's administration screwed up on some facet of the grant application form the feds that NJ wouldn't have gotten the 400 milllion. You couldn 't get a bet on this one anywhere. Pure partisan politics at work!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Getting back to Shackamaxon...again.

It appears that a major builder is making a bid, perhaps contingent on rezoning for residential use. If so, lenghty litigation will follow, particularly if the builder wants to build anything other than single family housing. In the meantime, what happens to the course? I doubt the membership is strong enough to match any offers and unless some golf course management company rescues The Shack or the county buys it and for open space,NLE is a distinct possibilty.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cliff Hamm,

To  put comments in proper perspective, you should know that Matt Ward is a Democratic Councilmen for the City of Clifton.

Republicans and Democrats are both to blame for the fiscal crisis that grips almost every city, county and state.  They agreed to Union demands regarding 20 and out, allowing triple overtime to establish retirement calculations, etc.,etc..

Everyone has to sacrifice in order to solve these problems, trouble is, NO ONE wants to sacrifice.

[archie_struthers]

 

Kelly , it's pretty clear that the only way out is to vote them out , nobody serves more than one term , regardless of party. Unlike good architecture good politiicians have not improved with age and seniority. They may understand the system better , sure , but this hasn't helped the American people. Regulatory issues grow daily . you can't fix broken steps to your house without a permit mops people fear , not love the government. They love thier country , or state , or home town, but not the bureaucracy that controls same.

NO pensions for politiicans , no beneftis , no special deals on loans etc etc ....Pay them well to serve and then go back to their real job . whatever that may be . The issue is you can't get elected without the apparatus , so far!  

Think of the money that has been wasted in re-election campaigns . We've got people spending 100's of millions to try and win a senate or congressionall seat.  Our state has destroyed the economy by giving away the store to the public employees union for votes for decades.

My best friend was a great cop, a great cop and person. You couldn't have a bettter guy protecting you as a resident . This being said , he retired after twenty five years with a pension and lifetime benefits as a young man of 50.....His pension is almost 70k per year .lifetime health benefits with no co-pay, and is in perfect heallth and God willing will live to  a ripe old age ,  however , he only paid aobut $175 k into the system and retired making over 100k per annum ...so you do the math ...even if the fund was wll managed he might have 350 grrand upon reitirement, we 've already padi him that in the first five years , now try to get a 33% return on his money to pay his pension...it ain't gonna add up at the end ....

[archie_struthers]

 


Kelly , bite your tonge,  Take it back for good karma , it's not his fault. it's theri fault .

ps merry christmas

[Matt_Ward]

Kelly:

This topic is vearing off the main subject at-hand.

Let me point out the following sacrifices that public unions need to make -- and I say that, as Pat M correctly pointed out, a demo councilman from Clifton. Health packages are picked up at 98.5% by the taxpayer -- that is wrong. The unions need to pay no less the same percentage that others in the private sector pay. What does such packages cost?

Here's something to chew on ...

In 2008 a complete family health plan cost Clifton taxpayers $20,000. That same plan two years later is now over $25,000. If projections hold it will be at $30,000 in 2012. NJ passed a 1.5% contribution amt from all public sector employees a short time ago but it's ineffectual and an insult to taxpayers that it doesn't reflect what others pay on the private side of the aisle.

Take pensions -- NJ's total unfunded liabilities stands at $87 billion. The current Governor bravely decided not to pay one cent to his share of that total --while here in Clifton -- 87% of our muni increase from last year's budget went to that subject. The State increased benefits but never added the needed set asides to pay them.

Pension reform is long overdue. Here in NJ the Governor has layed out some ideas but ultimately the main reform will be in getting even existing retirees to contribute back to the system because without their involvement the needed $$ to keep the syste,m going will not be possible. Taxing people more is not going to work by itself-- neither is belieiving you can change the existing suystem and have it only effect the newest of hires.

When people talk sacrifices these two topics are the places where the real $$ and real savings can be had. Leadership demands a complete overhaul because the failure to address these topis will have a day of reckoning -- and it's not far down the road.

Kelly one additional thing -- it is a cliche, and a very tired one at that, for people to talk out of their ass and think that all elected leaders are spineless or on the take or willing to be dupes on whatever happens. That is not the case but the average citizen is often not involved -- reads very little and understands even less. Getting their undivided attention on what happens can be quite frustrating. Amazingly, when Lincoln and Douglas debated they could hold the attention of a willing audience for hours at a time -- most people today have little or no attention and frankly have even less awareness -- even in an information age -- on what is really happening.

[archie_struthers]

 

Matt , well said !  Succinct and to the point . But history tells us the the unions won't cave on substantial cuts to retirees, and even a non violent  anarchist might see their logic. Promises were made , but not necessarily by those footing the bill.

  However ,we've got to address all public sector new hires right now. Their deals have to change dramatically !

Serious term limits are the answer.  Changing  the water will no doubt wash out good with the bad, but it is neccessary as the current election process has failed us..  it's hard to even distinguish what is good , those who bring the pork back or those who try to cut it!   

George Wasington could have been king , yet chose to go back to his farm. Good people who serve and return to private life after doing so is a concept who's time has come.  Pay the elected officials well, strip away lots of the perks and streamline the process , it's needed.

There's are obvious arguments to this, but experienced politiicians havenot served us well , and it's not just uneducated tea party Libertairians who hold this view. Imaginie , you need two surveys , an architect , three zoning permits ,  two zoning officers to sign off and review, one lawyer for you ,one for the town,  someone to sign off from the shade tree commission , etc etc to put a 133 foot deck addition on a house that you've owned and paid taxes on for 30 years ....there has to be a better way....