Riviera vs Sand Hills. What courses are next?

[John Kirk]

Old Tom sure put a lot of pepper on those burgers.

[Scott Szabo]

Riviera wins the 12th to go 3 up with 6 to play.

note:  If I could start over I would fudge this to only 2 up so I didn't lay awake at night wondering how to keep this interesting.

I don't think you have much to worry about keeping things interesting.  I think Sand Hills will do just fine with what it has left to offer.

[John Kirk]

Holes 14-18 at Riviera aren't exactly chopped liver, and the 13th at Sand Hills is prohibitively difficult.

[Scott Szabo]

I don't know much about Riviera other than what I've seen on TV, so I'll leave the discussion on those holes to those who have played them. 

I won't get ahead of the discussion so I'll leave my thoughts on the remaining holes at Sand Hills for the appropriate time and place.  They are about as good as any 6-hole stretch that can be named.

I meant no disrespect with my comment, but I do feel it would be difficult for Sand Hills to LOSE any of the remaining holes.  A push maybe, but not a loss.

[John Kavanaugh]

"Perhaps no hole, either in its pre-flood days or in the present form, requires more power, accuracy or mental strength than No. 13."

I didn't know Sand Hills had a flood, oh, that quote is from Geoff's book about Riviera but could describe the difficulty of the par 3, 13th at Sand Hills.

Man, am I in a pickle here but will plow ahead without regard to the outcome of the match.

What I enjoy most about the 13th at Riviera is the drive because it demands a draw after the golfer has become comfortable hitting fades.  Geoff compares the this hole to the 13th at Pine Valley, I haven't played Pine Valley.

The 13th at Sand Hills is one of my favorite templates, a long very difficult par 3. Ran compares it to the 5th at Pine Valley, I haven't played at Pine Valley.

Match Play at the 13eens.

Riviera !

Sand Hills !

Until I play Pine Valley this hole is a draw and unless that is before the conclusion of the competition the result will stand.

Riviera is 3 up with 5 to play.

[John Kirk]

Scott,

I sure hope I didn't sound like I felt disrespected.  It wasn't my intent to be aggressive.

I don't have a lot to say about either 13th hole.  I think Riviera's 13th is one of its less intriguing holes.  I like the demands for a right to left tee shot, right after the opposite demand of the 12th hole.  Although some folks will never give credit to additions made outside the scope of the original design, I like the new back left pin placement, right next to the deep swale.  The tree-lined fairway is not especially attractive.

For me, the 13th at Sand Hills, though beautiful, is just too hard.  Trying to hit a long iron or fairway wood up to that little shelf of a green is demoralizing.  Miss, short, and the ball falls back to a steeply uphill lie well below the green.  The common miss is to overswing and pull it way left into the native grass.  You will often see balls pin high but 30-40 yards left of the green.  Fortunately, the grass is sparse enough to find your ball 90% of the time and recover, which is very important.

I suppose one's impression of the holes depends on what you like.  Riviera's 13th is a solid parkland hole.  Sand Hills 13th is unique and beautiful, but do I really like the backbreaker par 3, where par seems to be a 20-30% proposition?

Since I gave Sand Hills the 12th on a close call, I go with John Kavanaugh's call as a draw.

Draw.  The match is all even.  Oh, the excitement!

[John Kavanaugh]

This is a simple comparison, thankfully so, as I would hate to see this match go dormie with the 15th coming up next.

The 14th at Riviera is a fine little hole perhaps best well known for holes in one.  It's got a fine green, it may even cause a novice to over club on the upcoming 16th because it is in the opposite direction.  Points for that.  It takes more than just another fine hole to compete in this match.

The 14th at Sand Hills is the perfect example of a half par hole, so half par that I am not sure what is on the card.  This is more of what I would have liked to have seen at the ninth, if it is a par 4.  All I have to go on is Ran's review as I don't have a real strong memory of the hole, but I am sure it is the type I could play over and again.

Match Play at the 14.

Riviera .

Sand Hills !

Sand Hills wins the hole moving to 2 down with 4 to go.  I'm glad I have all weekend to think about the 15th.

[Scott Szabo]

There's so much to offer at the 14th at Sand Hills that I'm a bit shocked that the hole didn't stand out more for you.  It may be the best par five that I've ever played.  The hole changes so dramatically with the ever changing winds.  I am a big fan of the "shorter" par five, even more so when there is another longer one somewhere during the round.  The small, angled green makes hitting it in two a difficult proposition.  Miss short, long or right and good luck getting it up and in.  It could very easily require twice as many shots to cover the last 10 or 20 yards as it did to cover the first 500.     

[Adam Clayman]

John Kirk, As a point of clarification, Mr. Youngscap did not have to buy extra ground to fit in the 14th green site. Since it was a 3000 acre parcel, all they had to do was go gerrymander the lines at the courthouse.

One of my great moments at SH was not playing, it was sitting on the porch with Dick, listening to him answer my question about this exact point. He regaled me with the entire story of SH's creation involving Bill and Ben. And how it almost didn't get built.

The inflection of his voice, and look on his face, when he said "He puttered over there, then he puttered over there, then over that way, then he climbed a fence, HE CLIMBED A FENCE". 

In these parts, fences are respected. If you shoot a bird and it lands on the other side of a fence, you need the land owners permission to retrieve it.

[John Kirk]

I like the 14th at Riviera.  I would call the 14th green a "Gull Wing" design, like a sea bird with two wings slightly above the torso.  Nice pin positions, fun putts, what's not to like?  Really good golf hole.  Another example of this Gull Wing green design is the 12th green at Los Angeles CC - North course.

I made an eagle 3 at Sand Hills #14 once.  Playing 10-15 mph downwind, I hit driver down the speed slot into the huge swale which dominates the left side of the fairway.  9-iron from 145 yards right over the flag, 3 feet above the hole.  The most delicate putt imaginable; oooooo...made it!

Going for the green in two sometimes leaves a bunker shot from the right greenside bunker.  Also a very enjoyable shot.

I think some people would consider the 14th at Sand Hills one of the finest short par 5s in golf.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Doak sees this as a !! hole.

Finally, one drawback of this type of comparison is the difficulty a par 3 hole has competing with a par 4 or 5 hole.

Sand Hills wins the battle of the fourteenths.  Sand Hills is 1 up with 4 to go.

The next few will make for tough comparisons.  No indifferent holes remain.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think that if I had known the 14th was a par 5 it would have been more memorable.

[John Kavanaugh]

Congratulations for being the first person to ever use the word "disstimulate" in a sentence.  Not even the Urban Dictionary could use it:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=disstimulate

I am happy to report that my good friend Gillette Silver has submitted distimulate to www.urbandictionary.com and it is now published.

[Jim Eder]

I think RJ Daley's point on history is interesting.  I think that I may be influenced because of Hogan's history at Riviera. As a big Hogan fan it must influence me (as it does with Colonial). I am not sure on actors and musicians. It doesn't influence me when I think of Sherwood. And I love Lakeside actors or not.

John,

Maybe it is too early in the morning for me but I didn't understand your post on the 14th at Riv causing one to overclub on 16. Thanks.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,

I thought the elevation change at Riviera is so subtle the novice player may not realize one is uphill and the other down.

[Jim Eder]

John,

Makes sense now.

BTW, great thread, 2 amazing courses!! You have really made me think about each a lot more, I can't say I ever thought about these two in a head to head "match". Difficult but brilliant. Great job.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thanks, I'm worried about tomorrow.  The 15th at Riviera is so strong and I hate to see the match go Dormie.

[Jim Eder]

I hear you................. there are "issues" there though. How they influence your call will be interesting. Great Drama!! Thanks

[Eric Smith]

I've never been to Riviera, but 16-18 is easily my favorite three hole stretch at Sand Hills. [And I made some horrific numbers on 17 and 18 over the course of three rounds there!] They also represent my favorite par 3, 4 and 5 on the gc, when considering 7 & 8 as half pars.

[John Kavanaugh]

This is the day I have worried about for over a month now.  Riviera gets to play its ace in hole, the formidable 15th.  I will start with an exact copy of Ran's entire review of the Sand Hills 15th below:

"Fifteenth hole, 470 yards; The 15th tee is the furthermost point to Ben’s Porch on the back side and a genuine roller coaster ride remains: the uphill climb at the 15th, the wild downhill ride at the 16th, the short 17th, and then the final march uphill at the 18th.Coore & Crenshaw lent thisthrilling landscapeits golfing qualities, in this case by digging out a pit bunker thirty yards shy of the green and using that fill tocreate another unique green complex,in this case a dome shaped green featuring a back to front tilt. The surrounding area of the green is kept tightly mown, with many a delicate chip shots to be had."

Is Ran saying this green is not a natural site?  I don't know and would not have guessed by my few visits to the green.  Is this also the hole with the thin section of rough separating it from the adjacent fairway, cause if so, I would have enjoyed if the fairways had been conjoined.

From Geoff's book, please find the following quote from Tom Doak concerning the 15th at Riviera:

"At 443 yds, and playing into the prevailing winds up the valley to boot, the Fifteenth is the strongest par 4 at Riviera, and one of the strongest in the land. From tee to green it is straightforward and honest. A long straight drive is paramount to thread the gap between the eucalyptus trees. A drive with a hint of cut is ideal, to get past the fairway bunker on the the right; but to go for such placement entails considerable risk, since there is no reaching the green from the bunker 200 yds distant, and if the drive is lost to the right the approach will be blocked by trees."

Doak continues, "The key feature of the hole is its green, which is the largest and the most heavily contoured at Riviera."

My memory centers more around the green than the difficulty of the hole.  Some call it Gullwing but I think of Banana.  It's a green that I think every modern architect lucky enough to have visited will use as a template for their designs.  From C&C to Pete Dye I think we have all seen it before, but never quite the same.

Match play at the 15th.

Riviera !!?

Sand Hills ?

The match is dormie with Riviera 3 up with 3 to go.

Note:  Obviously, even given the greatness of Riviera's 16th, this match is going into the 18th with Sand Hills down one with one to play.  I love the 18th at both courses but am leaning towards the 18th at Riviera simply because the requirements of the drive.  Personally I am pulling for the 18th at Sand Hills to win the hole bringing the match to a draw.  Playoff optional.

Please feel free to make your arguments for the 18th at Sand Hills before game time, which is scheduled for the morning of the 27th.

[Eric Smith]

Look at that walk through!

Some have mentioned the solitude of sitting behind the second green and staring off into the sand hills skyline. For me it was always when reaching the 15th green that I had my moment(s) of solitude. I think of this spot most when recalling those days last summer at SHGC.



EDIT: Oops! That is indeed the 4th hole in the first pic. Thanks, Chris.

[Chris Johnston]

JK - 15 at SHGC is possibly the best hole there.  An uphill, 470 yard 4 par with a diabolical green, 1/2 of which is hidden?  Along with 2 and 4, the easiest bogey (or more) on the course.  A tie at the least and an easy SHGC win for me.

[John Kavanaugh]

JK - 15 at SHGC is possibly the best hole there.  An uphill, 470 yard 4 par with a diabolical green, 1/2 of which is hidden?  Along with 2 and 4, the easiest bogey (or more) on the course.  A tie at the least and an easy SHGC win for me.

Eric - the walk through is stellar but the hole pictured is the 4th - even JK must swing that hard to get it in play!

Wow.  I can see where an uphill blind second shot would be exciting for a member.  Any idea why the fairways are not conjoined?  Is it just me, or does something on the 15th that makes a guy want to go right?

[John Kirk]

Does anybody have a picture of Riviera's 15th green?  I remember that it is high on the left, but I couldn't remember if it had a swale in the middle, like a sideways Biarritz green, or if it was a sideways two tier green.  Does it have a high back right pin?

 also need help about the 15th at Sand Hills.  Can anybody share some playing anecdotes abot playing the hole, something memorable and fun?

[RJ_Daley]

I don't think it is just you JK.  I've played SH 14 and 15 from the rough on the right way more often than I've had second shots from the FW!  If you are slicing or just pushing your tee ball, you aren't going to be a happy camper playing these two holes.  Once I played morning round hitting right rough on 14 and got through 15 in FW only because I flubbed a tee ball on 15 up the left short off tee and tick tacked to green"area"  in 2 more.  Then stayed on FW in afternoon on 14 only to hit big slice in rough off tee on 15.  Another round on another visit, I was in the slice-push rough on the successive holes in same round! It was also at that time I though... I sure wish these holes were like Wild Horse 2 and 3 with conjoined fairways...

But now you are coming to the part of your matchplay where I think these sort of matchplay exercises don't do the process justice when you are looking at a fair comparison between two great golf courses.  The successive match between the juxtaposed 16 Riv par 3 to SH 16 par 5 and repeat and reverse the juxtapose in a par 5 Riv, and par 3 SH on their 17ths.  At least you have fair comparison on par 4 strong 18th closers.  But, these are so important in evaluating the merits of the two courses, I don't see why you don't just go with switching the order and making comparisons of the two par 3s and 5s remaining head to head as to their pars rather than order in the routing...  

[John Kirk]

I don't see where 17th at Sand Hills is a slam dunk over the 17th at Riviera.  I don't see that at all.  The 17th at Sand Hills is eminently photogenic, but so hard to play.

The tee ball on Sand Hills #15 often gets pushed right because the penalty for going left is a blind shot at best, and a native nightmare at worst.  Can you play the ball out toward the 14th fairway here?  Isn't the native sort of sparse between the two fairways?  Pretty good golf hole.  More complex than the 15th at Riviera, more possibilities.  Both have big sexy greens.