Riviera vs Sand Hills. What courses are next?

[Terry Lavin]

Looks like Sand Hills will be 3 down after #10........

That's only because Barney knows he needs a big cushion after 10!

[Scott Szabo]

Looks like Sand Hills will be 3 down after #10........

That's only because Barney knows he needs a big cushion after 10!

I couldn't agree more 

[Adam Clayman]

I  believed John when said he was doing this as we went, without prior thoughts on where the match would lead. Other must seem to think he's sand bagging us, but I don't.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

I  believed John when said he was doing this as we went, without prior thoughts on where the match would lead. Other must seem to think he's sand bagging us, but I don't.

 

Thank you Adam and that is true.  I was really hoping that Sand Hills would win the ninth but after reading up on both holes this morning it was not to be.  Obviously I know who win the tenth and do hope Sand Hills can rally from there.  One thing I can promise is that the outcome of the 18th will not be decided until game day. 

[John Kirk]

The other JK boldly takes the coveted 105th response spot.  Top of the page.

I love the 9th hole at Riviera.  Although it's uphill, it covers rather flat, featureless ground.  Strategy is determined by staggered fairway bunkers.  The green is perched above fairway grade, with a deep bunker fronting the right two-thirds of the green.  The impressive clubhouse is directly behind the green.  Great hole.



Similar to The JK, I find the 9th hole at Sand Hills to be a bit ordinary, but my main objection was always the lack of pin placements.  The first couple times I played the course, the greens were very fast, perhaps 12.5 - 14 feet on the Stimpmeter.  At that speed, there were very few places for the pin, a narrow strip down the right center of the green.  Miss left and stopping the putt or chip was near impossible, especially for front pins.  The front pin was so difficult, missing five yards short and right of the green was a legitimate strategy.

I believe that agronomic practices have changed somewhat, and greens are now maintained at a slower pace, perhaps 11-12 feet, making this green far more versatile.  Very nice golf hole with lots of strategic considerations.  But it faces tough competition at Riviera.

Riviera wins and goes 1 up.

[Scott Szabo]

I  believed John when said he was doing this as we went, without prior thoughts on where the match would lead. Other must seem to think he's sand bagging us, but I don't.

 

That thought never crossed my mind.  My implication was that the holes on the back nine at SH are tough to beat.  If SH was up at the turn it would be a runaway, at least in my mind.

[John Kavanaugh]

The front nine is complete and I have Riviera up 2 at the turn.  The match as gone as such:

1. Riviera
2. Sand Hills
3. Draw
4. Riviera
5. Riviera
6. Riviera
7. Sand Hills
8. Sand Hills
9. Riviera

We are going to take a long lunch at the turn, I can't seem to get my Cobb Salad order straight, and return Monday the 14th with the back nine.

[John Kirk]

I'll assume this means Monday the 17th, though February 14th happens to be a Monday.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'll assume this means Monday the 17th, though February 14th happens to be a Monday.

I can't wait to see who shows up at my office on February 14th.  Damn computer calendar.  This must be why the picture above the month was invented. Good catch on my error.

[John Kirk]

Message to our resident Sand Hills expert:  On Monday, I would enjoy to hear your thoughts and opinions on the 10th hole at Sand Hills.  It's quite a complex hole, and though Riviera will probably win the hole-by-hole comparison, your 10th hole is magical as well.

[John Kavanaugh]

This isn't a fair fight because the 10th at Riviera is simply noted as one of the finest holes ever conceived in golf.  And it is the location of the finest drive of my life, and perhaps the worst 12 foot uphill put I have ever witnessed.  I went back and found my description as posted on January 9, 2007. 

The 10th

I'm thrilled to see the pin on the tournament green in the front left center.  I'm curious why my host says that we can hit some extra balls off of the tee.  I don't think he saw history making in my swing from the previous nine holes.  I'm thinking of all the times I have given people crap for stealing shots by hitting mulitiple balls and realize that without insulting my host I'm going to have to take one shot and live with it.  We were alone on the tee as we waited for the group ahead to vacate the soon occupied green.   A three club wind is at our backs taking lay up out of the question.  My host, as pure a ball striker as he is generous, hits his typically beautiful ball of fine tajectory and flight which makes a bee line for the pin only to be struck dead by a slight fade on the end.  His hole is done.  My only swing thought is to make contact and see where it takes me.  The ball starts out low and stays that way as it makes its way towards the right edge of the left front bunker.  Our caddie begs for a fade as my ball disappears into a shadow on its historical treck.  A sense of relief overcomes me as my host doesn't insist on me hitting another ball as it appears I have hit a shot adequate to get a feel for the hole.  The excitement starts as we get what must have been 70 yds from the hole but felt like 700 when the caddie exclaims in a sense of wonderment that my ball is on the green near the hole.  Instantly the weight of history starts the long climb from my legs through my hands up squarely onto my shoulders.  I've got a chance to make two on the 10th at Riviera.  My friends will love me, women will want to be me, children will drop rose peddles on my path home later in the week.  I'm in LA and the world is mine.  It is a simple twelve foot putt staight up the hill with a slight right to left break.  The greens are rolling a receptive nine.  Even the wind stops to watch.  My host was kind enough to give me my putt for par.

I think it can be confirmed that I walked to the 11th tee with all the courage of a dictator at the gallows.  Funny thing about when history presents its self to you and you fail to get what want but get what you need best.   I don't know that I could have lived with myself if I had made that duece and I'm sure my friends couldn't have.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 06:08:25 AM by John Kavanaugh »

The above was captured from this interesting thread from a more innocent time: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27439.0.html

I really have nothing more to add about the tenth at Riviera.

The tenth at Sand Hills is a mystery to me.  John Kirk implies above to a matter of greatness that I would like explained.  I don't see much in Ran's review that has not become expected and delivered throughout every hole at Sand Hills.  So that is that and since we all know that life is not fair, nor would we want it to be, here are the results.

Match play at the tens.

Riviera !??

Sand Hills !

Riviera wins the tenth going 3 up with 8 to play.

[Adam Clayman]

I'm with John Kirk that the 10th at SH is not a throw away. The bunkers are pure genius in how they can look adjacent but are 200 yards apart. The terrain is better than the Riv but maybe thats why The Riv is heralded as one of the best short par 4's. It's basically on flat terrain.

A great design on nothing ground trumps a great design on fabulous terrain every time, doesn't it?

[John Kavanaugh]

Adam,

I am sure it was you who pointed out to me how the 15th at Wild Horse is similar to the 10th at Riviera.  Did you ever ask the boys why they felt the need to build a back tee at 342 yds?  Do they acknowledge it is a template hole?

I agree with your flat land statement towards greatness which is why I admire the 6th at Riviera over any other par three in the world.

[Alex Miller]

A great design on nothing ground trumps a great design on fabulous terrain every time, doesn't it?

Not according to Tom Doak or Melvyn Morrow!

I fully expect this match to come down to the 18th, though I fear Riviera may actually lose it before then!

[John Kavanaugh]

A great design on nothing ground trumps a great design on fabulous terrain every time, doesn't it?

Not according to Tom Doak or Melvyn Morrow!

I fully expect this match to come down to the 18th, though I fear Riviera may actually lose it before then!

Alex, have you ever stood next to the Bogart tree?  Beats any tree on the back nine at Sand Hills.

[Bill_McBride]

My host, as pure a ball striker as he is generous, hits his typically beautiful ball of fine tajectory and flight which makes a bee line for the pin only to be struck dead by a slight fade on the end.  His hole is done. 

John, why was his hole done?

Does the kikuyu prevent a bump and run from over to the right?

[John Kavanaugh]

Bill,

It was a long time ago but I believe my host hit his drive just short of the green side bunker.  If you are going to miss the 10th green at Riviera I believe that right just short of the bunker is death.  Here is an excellent pictorial: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.0.html

[Alex Miller]

A great design on nothing ground trumps a great design on fabulous terrain every time, doesn't it?

Not according to Tom Doak or Melvyn Morrow!

I fully expect this match to come down to the 18th, though I fear Riviera may actually lose it before then!

Alex, have you ever stood next to the Bogart tree?  Beats any tree on the back nine at Sand Hills.

Haha. Very Good. indeed i have, but i will hold off on my predictions so this thread retains the suspense it deserves(?)

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm tempted to just close this match out to save me all this hard work.  Just this weekend I had a conversation with our Priest, who drives the team bus, outside the gym where our JV team had just gotten killed by poor refereeing.  At one point they shot 6 straight free throws on a double foul/technical foul combo.  He thought the referees conspired against us when it was my opinion they were just incompetents.  I guess growing up Catholic I should have remembered that stupidity is never a legitimate excuse for sin.  That being said, I will continue through the mire of my own stupidity and let the cards play as they lie.  The 12th is starting to concern me.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

It was a long time ago but I believe my host hit his drive just short of the green side bunker.  If you are going to miss the 10th green at Riviera I believe that right just short of the bunker is death.  Here is an excellent pictorial: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16619.0.html

Death because you can't pitch onto the green and stop within 30 yards of the far edge?  When I was there during the LA Open a couple of years ago, it looked like that would be similar to pitching down your driveway and trying to stop it short of the street.   That's why I asked about the kikuyu preventing a bump shot.

[RJ_Daley]

Adam,

I am sure it was you who pointed out to me how the 15th at Wild Horse is similar to the 10th at Riviera.  Did you ever ask the boys why they felt the need to build a back tee at 342 yds?  Do they acknowledge it is a template hole?

I agree with your flat land statement towards greatness which is why I admire the 6th at Riviera over any other par three in the world.

On this small point that I am able to comment, the 342 tee is there because it is not beyond anyone who can normally hit a drive 280 or so, to be able to drive to the ideal spot in the left throat of the green at Wild Horse in the prevailing wind conditions at ones back on that tee.  I am a normally decent driver of the ball at about 225-35, and have been in the throat area almost pin high from the 300 tees.  I know plenty of guys from this forum that can make the back tee shot to somewhere in the pin high to the left area with a 3 wood from the back tees.  So, I  doubt that the Riv generally has the prevalent helping wind that WH has.  

As to the comparison, the obvious aspect is the array of bunker at the Riv makes a wider arc of possibilities.  The bunkering at WH does similar dispersal of options, but on a narrower arc or field of play.  

I also can't say since I never played the Riv, but it seemed to me that folks giving an easy tip of the hat to the Riv's 9th, didn't seem quite right to me...  Just because it is a long par 4 and takes most 3 shots to get on the green, doesn't seem to me to be the proper standard.  The bunkering array at the Riv is obviously a set of strategic placements, but aren't they demanding in offering few placement options, sort of a tic tack one place to hit the shot.  SH has the very wide FW with two distinct sides of a deep chasm of a gathering depression with a steep semi to blind shot to the green on the left side, and a flatter yet slightly rolling area on the right that is harder to hold without going into the wooga with the added challenge that the prevailing wind pushes usually to the right but offers yet an easier green approach.  I wonder how many GIR by comparison there are by decent players of low to 12 handicaps at both courses 9ths?  The greater terrain contour and approach variations, while bunkerless, are more deft of touch, it seems to me at SH.  Again, saying this having never played shots to Riv's 9th...  I wonder how many folks familiar with play on both over multiple rounds would not think the 9ths more of a draw?

[John Kavanaugh]

Bill,

The bump and run is not possible from the right because the bunker is between the green and your errant drive.  You must stay left as outlined on Jeff's excellent thread.  I believe the fact that I drove the green proves that the kikuyu allows the ball to run with properly applied top spin.

Dick,

I think the bunkering, both fairway and green side, is what makes the 9th at Riviera.  Knowing that the 10th would be won by Riviera I tried as hard as I could to give the 9th to Sand Hills.  I just find it to be a very weak hole given where it sits in the round.  Like I said in my comparison I think Crenshaw made it look boring to the eye from Ben's porch for artistic merit.  That works, but really, why not more of a test after 7 and 8?

[John Kirk]

Hi Dick,

The 9th at Riviera is a very attractive hole, with a sloped, irregular green.   The walk from tee to green is fabulous.  I'll stick with my choice here.

On to #10!

First, my experience at Riviera's 10th hole.  Two rounds yielded the following memorable results.  On a calm day, I made 3 the conservative way.  A solid 4-wood to the left edge of the green, followed by a 78 yard sand wedge to 3 feet.  I made the putt.

On another day after that, the heavy following wind was in play, and I decided to go for it.  In order to attempt hitting a long drive, I try to make my body bigger to take a larger swing.  Standing tall and further from the ball, I made the big swing and connected.  A 1-in-100 shot.  The ball went high and far, the ball visibly pushed downwind.  The pin was a bit left of center; my ball was traveling a couple yards right of the flag when it hit the very top of the greenside bunker and rolled back onto a flatter portion of the sand.  I made an excellent sand shot, aiming well left of the pin and hitting a soft flop-up that stayed on the green, about 20 feet away.

After an excellent first putt, I made an 8 footer for par, and walked away thinking this is the greatest shit ever.  Ever.

Had I carried the bunker, I would have left myself a pitch shot from a few yards beyond the green, from where birdie is about a 25/75 proposition.


One of my strong sentiments about Sand Hills, which Adam just mentioned, is the sense the bunkers are randomly placed on the course.  They look so natural and so irregular, compared to other golf courses.  Of course, the positioning is precise, but it doesn't feel that way.  They seem divinely sited.

The 10th hole is a great example.  The fairway is wide, with a big swale in the right half.  There are bunkers out there to navigate.  It's hard to tell where the best line is.  The entire hole slopes from the left side to the right.  Attack the left side, and you'll have a chance to see the green, but a long drive down the right will leave a shorter, but often blind, approach.  Bunkers are more an issue down the left side.

It's a long par 4 hole, especially from the back tees.  Typical approach shots range from 150 to 220 yards.  The green is large with a large, short grass area left and long that collects balls back towards the green.  The green and short grass chipping areas are gently sloped; a straight shot into the slope will not always feed down onto the green, but faded shots will be rewarded.

What's so great about all this is the regularity in which long approach putts and chips are experienced.  The slopes are pretty gentle, but 20-40 yard third shots are common, with gentle, predictable break.  The short game shots around this hole are fantastic, a great hole to watch your friends play their shots around the green.

Riviera wins this hole to go 2 up, but the 10th at Sand Hills is an outstanding hole with a special greensite..

[John Kavanaugh]

I suppose it is common to think the weakness at Riviera lays in their par 5's.  I thought the same thing even before this match started and I thought 9 was a par 5.  My recollection of the 11th at Riviera was that the barranca was up by the green because I remember having trouble getting across in my second shot.  Geoff's book, as the pictures verify, says it is only 360 yds from the back tee.  It does run at an angle and it is dry, but I sit here today amazed that I have had such trouble, and am not alone, getting two shots 400 yds down the fairway of a straight par 5.  I suppose the trees make it difficult, I supposed it is my own lack of skill, but the barranca makes the hole and a fine one it is.

I readily admit that I love the 11th at Sand Hills because it is the only hole that is not an obvious driver, but still a driver for those of superior skill.  As I have said before, we played the course blind with no caddie or anyone who had previously played the course in our group.  Guess who tried to cut the corner, yea, the same guy who lost his ball and did not finish the hole the first time around.  Once I understood the options, the layup is quite fun given the reverse camber of the fairway.  Sand Hills needed this hole, it is now one of my favorites on the course.

Match play at the 11th's

Riviera !

Sand Hills ?

Sand Hills wins to give hope at only 2 down with 7 to go.

[John Kirk]

The 11th hole at Riviera would be plain without the well positioned ditch.  I like that the grass is kept short enough so the ball can be usually be found and played out of this hazard.  Good hole.

The 11th at Sand Hills is very nice for all the reasons that John mentions.  In the past, I've had a bit of an issue with the skyline second shot, because it's very difficult to know where the flag is on the green.  For those who haven't played there, the second shot is steeply uphill, and it takes a keen eye, or perhaps lots of experience, to deduce where the flag is, front to back and left to right.

Sand Hills wins the 11th.  Riviera is 1 up.