Riviera vs Sand Hills. What courses are next?

[John Kavanaugh]

One of the beauties of having been privileged to play Riviera is reflecting on and sometimes meeting celebrities of all facets.  The seventh brings to mind our own long lost Tommy and his tails of woe concerning the whale tales found on the fairway bunker of number 7.  Little did I know, or remember, that the Fazio remodel was the least of the work done to what is still a fine and challenging hole. Turns out the great flood of 39 and the flood control project of 73 resulted in substantial changes to the original design.  The hole is not a let down by any means but is no match for its opponent today.

The seventh at Sand Hills has had much written about it for good reason.  In the three or so times I played the hole I hit driver every time and ended up in the right rough every time.  I do not have the power to hit a draw that can find the green, and sadly never will, or did.  It is a tempting little bastard despite that admission.  Love what it is but perhaps love where it is in the round even more.  I feel like I'm playing the Celtics with a huge lead and Rondo and Cousy just came off the bench.  The momentum has changed.

Match play.

Riviera !

Sand Hills !??

Sand Hills wins the hole to pull within 2 up.

[Scott Szabo]

Scott, The greens speeds day in day out are no where near the same. Plus, the bowled nature of 15 makes for some opportunities to air break.

Now, we can talk about being out of position, on any green, and how that affects a persons perception of what's fair.

Adam,

I quite agree regarding the green speeds. 

The point I was trying to make is that I think it's okay to have a hole or two (or pin position or two) that almost REQUIRE a good golf shot to set up a chance for birdie or par.  In the case of Sand Hills, I think there is a perfect blend of contouring on the greens (some more, some less).  You don't get beat up over the course of 18 holes...

[Scott Szabo]

I agree, the 7th is about as good as it gets.  Short enough that you feel like you should be able to make birdie with ease, but sadly a 5 or more shows up on the card about as often.

A front pin on this hole is devilish...

[Chip Gaskins]

Riviera

Hitting the fairway here is harder than it looks.  Bunkers through the fairway and the big ravine right.  The bunkers around the green eat any errant shot.





Sand Hills

My playing partner here drove it 3 feet!  Missed the putt.  Amazing hole.  Lover the many options off the tee.  The obvious one is to lay up and if I ever play SH again that is what I will do.  Trying to get on the green simply doesn't justify the risk.

[Bob_Huntley]

John,

I have just had another look at the photograph of No. 6 at Riviera. I played there last month for the first time in thirty-five years. It looks like a totally different hole; the extension of the green long and left has given the hole a new dimension, it is easier to play.

As I age, I cannot recall the exact detail, but short of the green there did seem to have been a raised banking requiring the tee shot to come in from some elevation.


Bob

[Jerry Kluger]

The 7th at SH is an absolutely incredible short par 4 even for players like myself who cannot drive the green and it certainly appears to have been done with virtually no earth being moved.  The short second shot is incredibly challenging as a shot which is just short rolls all the way back down the hill, slightly long is an impossible up and down and any putt from the back of the green is pure death.  Number 8 is very cool and a whole lot of fun but to me, 7 is brilliant.

[RJ_Daley]

Sir Boab, did you get any distinct impressions regarding your memory of the bunkers left of the fairway on 7, and whether the Fazio remodel was overtly noticable?  When I visited the course on a late sunday afternoon where Tommy took me around in a cart like he owned the place,,,   , I remember he brought me to those remodelled bunkers at 7 and pitched a fit over the desecration from their originals.  Of course, I saw the early 'upholstered look' somewhat typical of Fazio's other restoration work that was being discussed often in those days (i.e. Merion's)  But, I just wondered now that time has past, if the bunkers seemed desecrated to you?  

By the way, I have to look back on that warm summer Sunday evening tour in the gloaming conducted by Tommy, with a late  nightime re-creation of the OJ night of terror tour, as one of my most fond memories of any trips I ever took.  We did a scouring tour of Rustic under construction earlier in that day, and Daniel Wexler was there at the Riv for me to meet and chat with, and my wife just loved the whole thing also.  and we finished at a neat Italian restaurant frequented by stars where Tommy's Dad used to play drums in a combo, as I remember. Maybe it doesn't beat an actual round of golf at the Riv for diehards, but it was still a special memory.  The club was just ooozing with atmosphere and I couldn't help but imagine some stories Sir Boab had recounted to me about his play there and one of his special playing competitors.  It really evoked the aura of that real Hollywood stylistic ideal of the perhaps bygone era my generation was raised imagining.  At least that is how a country mouse like me took it all in...  

[John Kirk]

John Kirk -

Isn't it an another tip of the hat to Riviera that the right side of the green wants a fade and the left side wants a draw? Another example of Thomas examining your skills in different ways round after round.

Interesting, "advanced" comment about the course.  Wouldn't that comment hold true for all concave greens, with the opposite (draw to right, fade to left) true for convex greens?

[John Kirk]

My primary objection with the 6th hole at Sand Hills is the severity of the green.  It is one of the three most severely contoured greens on the course (2, 3 and 6), and hitting to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par.  At 200 yards, hitting to the high portions of the green (back left or right half) is very difficult.  You must be short of the front left pin or you are dead.  Maybe I should try the bunny driver like JK.
 

The green is too severe?  John, you are a member at Ballyneal, which has the most severe greens I've ever seen. How many shots there are you asked to play into greens where hitting it to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par?  And quite a few of them, if played from the tips, will be around 200 yards or more. 

Sure, hitting to the high portions of the green at #6 at Sand Hills is a tough call.  But can't the same be said for #15 at Ballyneal, for example?  Put the pin front right, just over the knob, and it's just as tough a shot (unless your name's Glossy!).  I don't want to pull us off track with the Ballyneal comparison, but had to call you on that. 

Hi Scott,

Well, is it harder to two putt to the high knob on Ballyneal #15, or is it more difficult to two putt to the front left slope on Sand Hills #6? 

Even if it is equally difficult on average, what I dislike is the nature of the putt on #6.  Almost no matter what you do, the ball ends up 15 or more feet below the hole, often rolling completly off the front.  You can't stop the ball around the hole, ever.  At Ballyneal, a really great putt will yield the tap-in.

[John Kirk]

 I feel like I'm playing the Celtics with a huge lead and Rondo and Cousy just came off the bench.  The momentum has changed.

Sand Hills wins the hole to pull within 2 up.

Rondo AND Cousy!  Kirk calls Allen off the bench, in for Cousy.  Garden fans breathe a sigh of relief.

I have many fond memories on #7 at Sand Hills.  During one 4 day trip, I layed back with 4-iron off the tee 5 or 6 times in a row, which leaves the 75 to 85 yard pitch.  On the last day, I pulled driver and hit the 3 yard draw onto the green and two putted for birdie.  Man that's a good memory; I'll never forget that one.

DO NOT hit the 225 -240 yard shot.  It's not worth it.  Lay back, or go for it.  However, the green is nicely perched above the fairway to encourage all sorts of second shots, should you foolishly leave the 20-50 yard shot.

#7 at Riviera is a fine hole.  I absolutely love the gentle tilt of the barranca.  Almost every approach shot is a half club uphill or downhill, even though you'd swear the ground is flat.  Same with the putts.  You just can't believe some of the putts that break toward the ocean.

I've hit a couple of great longish irons onto the 7th green.  Solid drive for me leaves about 175 yards, and that's a good 5-iron for me, adding in the uphill.  Nailed it, still 35 feet short.  Hit the putt much harder than it looks, because I've learned that's what you need to do.  Easy 2 footer for par.  Oooo, that feels good.

The win goes to Sand Hills as expected, but it's not a runaway for me.

Riviera is 1 up.

[Scott Szabo]

My primary objection with the 6th hole at Sand Hills is the severity of the green.  It is one of the three most severely contoured greens on the course (2, 3 and 6), and hitting to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par.  At 200 yards, hitting to the high portions of the green (back left or right half) is very difficult.  You must be short of the front left pin or you are dead.  Maybe I should try the bunny driver like JK.
 

The green is too severe?  John, you are a member at Ballyneal, which has the most severe greens I've ever seen. How many shots there are you asked to play into greens where hitting it to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par?  And quite a few of them, if played from the tips, will be around 200 yards or more.  

Sure, hitting to the high portions of the green at #6 at Sand Hills is a tough call.  But can't the same be said for #15 at Ballyneal, for example?  Put the pin front right, just over the knob, and it's just as tough a shot (unless your name's Glossy!).  I don't want to pull us off track with the Ballyneal comparison, but had to call you on that.  

Hi Scott,

Well, is it harder to two putt to the high knob on Ballyneal #15, or is it more difficult to two putt to the front left slope on Sand Hills #6?  

Even if it is equally difficult on average, what I dislike is the nature of the putt on #6.  Almost no matter what you do, the ball ends up 15 or more feet below the hole, often rolling completly off the front.  You can't stop the ball around the hole, ever.  At Ballyneal, a really great putt will yield the tap-in.

Maybe I need another go round Sand Hills with that pin.  I've only had it twice in my plays, and have not had the experience you have.  I've hit it to 15 or 20 feet both times - missed both but made par each time.  Yes it was a scary putt, but nothing that couldn't be handled.  I can see where being above the hole or on the right side of the green would compound things, but the obvious answer is "don't hit it there".  

Maybe the play to that pin is leaving the ball short of the hole, even if it means leaving it short of the green?  I've often thought of the front left pin as more of a "green light pin" since any play above the hole typically results in the ball coming back down to the pin.  Too long and you miss the ridge and are in trouble.  I typically play a draw, okay more of a hook due to my limited abilities  , so I would think a play to the middle of the green with a draw would find the ball close to the pin.

A back pin on that hole seems to be more demanding.  Again, limited plays on my part so I may not have seen everything you have.

For what it's worth, I simply threw #15 at Ballyneal in the mix because it requires a shot over 200 yards with an almost impossible two putt if one's not fairly close to the hole, and in the right area (specifically to the front right pin, just over the large knob).  One could also throw a few other holes there into the mix as well, but i won't get into that debate.  I love the occasional, almost impossible pin position.  Again, let me stress OCCASIONAL.  I wouldn't want a heavy dose of that over the course of 18 holes.

[John Kavanaugh]

"I know you can get eight in here." is a quote from my 78 year old mother.  Seven responsible adults, who had had a few drinks, were riding in a stretch limo from Christmas dinner back to the house.  The limo was advertised as built for eight and when I observed we were a tight fit at seven my Mother made her observation that makes me queasy to this day.  When I told Dad I had rented a limo he immediately felt we should ask the driver to join us at the table.  And this is the tie to Riviera as Larry David and the course once again entered my life making my day just a bit brighter.

The best thing I can say about the eighth at Riviera is that in match play it only counts as one hole.  Another good thing is that I don't know if I have ever been so confused in my life on a tee shot that should be simple.  On my first play I shanked my drive ob right, the second I found the trees between the alternate fairways and the third, from the member tees is a blank.  I know in my heart that the eighth will be a great hole once again before I die, but it just isn't quite there yet.  There is an excellent description of the eighth in Geoff's book by Tom Kite that ends "Truly one of the finest short par 4's anywhere."  All I can say is go to Geoff's site and buy the book.

The eighth at Sand Hills is rightfully recognized as truly one of the finest short par 4's anywhere.  The only regrets I have in my life are those things that I chose not to do, and attempt to putt around the bunker this hole to a front pin fits squarely in my regret peg hole.  Ran mentions that the boomerang green is one of Crenshaw's favorites and I would agree.  I love everything about the hole, every time I played it.  Really can't add anything more.

Match play at the eighths.

Riviera ?

Sand Hills ??

Sand Hills wins to pull within one.  Riviera 1 up going into the ninth where I sit here now without a clue how that hole will be decided.

[Adam Clayman]

Riv 2 up at the turn.

[John Kavanaugh]

Riv 2 up at the turn.

I hope not with the tenth coming up right off the turn.  The tenth and seventeenth are the only remaining holes where I have a good idea what is going to happen.  If I have to come up with one more cheesy title I may be forced to shoot myself.

[Terry Lavin]

The only good thing I'll say about the 8th at Riv is that I saw Larry David there one day, looking as uncomfortable as he ever did on television.  I have Sand Hills up 2 and it will be a bloodbath on the back nine.

[Eric Smith]

The eighth at Sand Hills is rightfully recognized as truly one of the finest short par 4's anywhere.  The only regrets I have in my life are those things that I chose not to do, and attempt to putt around the bunker this hole to a front pin fits squarely in my regret peg hole. 

John, I believe this is the shot, isn't it?

[John Kavanaugh]

Eric,

Yes that is the shot, nice to see Mac take such an interest in my play.  I would have really had to hug the sand for a successful putt but I seem to think the backstop behind the pin is more pronounced than the picture suggests.  Looks like I kept my head down but I may see a bit of chicken wing trying to creep in.  What happened, I can't remember.

Terry,

Could you post you hole by hole results.  No descriptions or cheesy titles are required, but no less desired.

[Terry Lavin]

I have Sand Hills winning 1, 2, push at 3, Riv winning 4, SH winning 5, Riv winning 6 and 7, SH winning 8 and 9 for a two-up SH lead.

And it pains me to do this because I absolutely love the Riv.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have Sand Hills winning 1, 2, push at 3, Riv winning 4, SH winning 5, Riv winning 6 and 7, SH winning 8 and 9 for a two-up SH lead.

And it pains me to do this because I absolutely love the Riv.

I love them both myself, but like my children, it is possible to love one of them more.  I could see challenging your opinion leading to an even larger lead for SH.  Thanks.

[Scott Szabo]

I have Sand Hills winning 1, 2, push at 3, Riv winning 4, SH winning 5, Riv winning 6 and 7, SH winning 8 and 9 for a two-up SH lead.

And it pains me to do this because I absolutely love the Riv.

Terry - Riv winning #7?  I'd like to hear your reasoning behind that one.  I won't disagree with what you've come up with, just curious as to how you arrived at that particular hole.

[Terry Lavin]

I have Sand Hills winning 1, 2, push at 3, Riv winning 4, SH winning 5, Riv winning 6 and 7, SH winning 8 and 9 for a two-up SH lead.

And it pains me to do this because I absolutely love the Riv.

Terry - Riv winning #7?  I'd like to hear your reasoning behind that one.  I won't disagree with what you've come up with, just curious as to how you arrived at that particular hole.

Trying to keep it a fair fight, to tell you the truth!  Maybe I should have given 9 to the Riv instead of 7...

Your question highlights that this exercise if fun, but not exactly fair because if you go hole by hole you get some wacky matchups.  A "fairer" way might be to compare 3's to 3's and 4's to 4's and 5's to 5's.  I think Sand Hills would win that match-up handily as well.  Bottom line is that Sand Hills is my #1 course all time and Riviera is #6, so they are both off the charts great.

[John Kirk]

Due to time constraints, I'll make this brief.

The 8th at Riviera has two fairways, but the reward for attempting the left fairway option doesn't come close to the risk encountered.  This is probably the least interesting hole on the course.

The 8th at Sand Hills has great notoriety.  From the back tee box (about 360 yards), the tee shot for guys with my distance (say a 230-240 yard carry when struck solidly) is angled perfectly to "bite off as much as you risk".  It's a driver/wedge hole from back there.

From the front box (about 290 yards), I suppose I'd try to drive it, but I'd aim out left and try to avoid that little pitch over the lion's mouth bunker.

It's a pretty easy hole.  If you make 5, you're "screwing" up.  I've made 3 or 4 birdies out of maybe 10-12 tries here.  I don't find the hole any more compelling than the 7th.

Easy choice.  Sand Hills wins, and the match is all square.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thanks John.  We wii resume on Monday with the conclusion of the front side.

[John Kavanaugh]

My memory played an evil trick on me concerning the ninth at Riviera.  I thought I remembered it as a par 5 until a few holes ago someone mentioned the weakness of the five pars on the course.  Just when I was ready to list the ninth hole in my argument I realized it was indeed a par 4. One thing about Riviera that I don't yet grasp is the elevation change that must exist but I don't see.  The ninth plays straight up the hill which makes it a three shot hole for most if in the fairway and for everyone if not.  The hole is nothing but pure hard.  I embrace this because it was designed as such.

My first interaction with the ninth at Sand Hills was the view from Ben's Porch.  I'm going to take a positive spin on this and say it was purposefully boring because Crenshaw did not need to reveal his hand before the player was on the course.  I don't really understand the ease of the hole considering we had just finished two short birdie holes on 7 and 8.   Ran mentions that the fairway has as many rolls and uneven lies as we will see the entire day, well and good, but the hole is so short with no green side hazards to matter.  Its a perfectly fun hole even drivable by those with Wardian strength.  I'm going to take the blame on this one and take the fall saying that I just don't get it.  It must be a great hole, I wish I knew why.

Match play at the nines.

Riviera !!!

Sand Hills ?

Riviera goes 2 up at the turn and controls the ball after the half.

[Scott Szabo]

Looks like Sand Hills will be 3 down after #10........