[John Kavanaugh]

In evaluating number three of each course I hate to admit I had to do a bit of research for each.  I use The Riviera Country Club, A Definitive History by Geoff Shackelford and Ran's excellent review of Sand Hills on this very site. 

My mental block on the third from Riviera came for a lack of oxygen from completing the second and the famous story of Jack Nicklaus giving a clinic from what I believe was the third tee.  Upon review I now recall a green and site that, if I were an reviewer interested in intellectual banter, I may declare the finest of its kind due to its simple excellence in regards to tee shot placement and offering of land form.  But that is not me.

I was somewhat blank about the third of Sand Hills from the shocking and unforgettable experience of having just played number two.  On reviewing the green site from Ran's review I remember now a roller coaster of a beautiful seemingly natural ocean wave of a green.  Exactly the opposite of Riviera.

Matchplay at the thirds.

Riviera !?

Sand Hills ?!

A tie.  Match remains even through three.

A note.   I am playing this out hole by hole and becoming interested who really is going to win this match.  I promise you it has not been predetermined.

[Adam Clayman]

Kikuyu is the killer for me. When I lived in L.A. and the Seniors would play Rancho Park, I was always amazed at how low they would go. I found it harder to play out of, around the greens, than almost any other grass I know.

Now, at the Riv, the boys play there in winter, and if there were any low temperatures, prior to, the Kikuyu goes dormant and is much more manageable.

One of the little things that bothers me about the kikuyu at The Riv are on holes # 2 and # 4. Both hillsides right just beg for me to want to try and play it off the hill. But without the lowest of cuts, a futile exercise.

The 3rd hole at Riviera epitomizes the entirety. Simple elegance, without a feature built up, to sore the eye.

[John Kirk]

Once again, if memorable experiences were the barometer, Sand Hills would win.  Sand Hills #3 is a 210 yard downhill par 3.  I don't believe there are any formal bunkers.  Maybe there's one a few yards short of the green.  The long green is dominated by an enormous ridge encroaching from the left, separating the green into front and beck sections.

I've two putted from the front of the green to a back right pin, and I've two putted from the back right to a front right pin.  Very satisfying in each instance.  I also remember a birdie into the wind where the ball hit the front of the big slope on the fly, then trickled down next to the hole.

But in this case, I'm going to award the hole to #3 at Riviera.  Just a simple sweeping dogleg, lots of room to miss in the rough, but then you're out of position.  Good green, with lots of possible pin locations.  The third green at Sand Hills has some limitations for pin placements.  My memory is a bit foggy about the third at Riviera, but I do remember how visually pleasing I found the tee shot and the walk down to the fairway.

Riviera wins #3 in a controversial decision!  Riviera is 1 up.

[John Kavanaugh]

Riviera wins #3 in a controversial decision!  Riviera is 1 up.

Very nice.  I just couldn't pull the trigger on that one but I am glad someone else could.

At Riviera I remember being on the tee at three and my host telling me that no matter what I did I had to stay left to have any shot at the green...Of course I hit the ball weak right.  What a beautifully difficult round wrecker of a hole. I wish the people who think water hazards are an abomination had more opportunities to play a course like Riviera where poor position can humiliate the golfer in ways more punishing than just a new ball and a reatee.   

I stand by my call of a draw on the matchplay event but perhaps this direct quote from the Riviera book, "The green complex on No. 3 is also one of George Thomas' finest." relieves some of the controversy of the Kirk findings.

[John Kavanaugh]

When I first started this exercise I knew the battle at the fourth would be epic.  Two holes each reaching perfection in design and memorability.  Ben Hogan calls the fourth at Riviera "The greatest par-3 hole in America." giving pause to how the fourth at Sand Hills could be a worthy opponent.

That being said, if any picture captures the majesty of Sand Hills it is the picture of the green side bunker at the fourth being conquered by our very own Bob Huntley as found in this link.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/sand-hills

On to the match.

I was lucky enough to find a scorecard from Riviera from my travels and think it is important to note that the yardage of the fourth is 236 and 223 yards from the blue and white tees respectively.  I bring this up because a constant song which emits from the harps of Riviera detractors is how kikuyu negates the ability to play the hole as designed.  The argument is that because of the current maintenance meld the redan characteristics are moot.  Now lets pull up our big boy pants for this argument.  The hole calls for a low draw flown approximately 230 yards to negate whatever the effects of the kikuyu are in even the worst of conditions.  I'm in the Ben Hogan camp on this one, if you can't hit it, learn it.  I doubt if there is a single member of this site under 70 who can not catch a driver just right at least once a decade to pull this off.  The same can not be said for shots requiring height and spin.

Of course if you are of professional caliber you just hit a moon ball five iron right of the hole and avoid the kikuyu all together.  I remember sitting down in front of the tube excited about watching the pros play this hole and seeing this option that I did not realize existed.  It is exactly the length of the hole that I think makes it great.

The fourth at Sand Hills is sadly often seen as one dimensional because of the pictures of the bunker which seems to be taken from a perspective no one playing the course would ever see.  From the tee there is no indication that this is the famous bunker.  As a matter of fact, it was long after my initial round when I asked where the bunker Huntley was pictured in was, I discovered it was on the fourth.  Given that, irrespective of beauty, the green side bunker at the fourth is one of the finest in the game.  I don't know about you but I'm not flying the fairway bunker on the right so my approach to the green is from the center of the fairway at best.  Maybe it's the table top, or the gunch to the left of the green, wide open green expanse to the right of the green, but I was only comfortable with a fade approach.  A perfect combination of events stimulating the senses which culminates in fun.

Matchplay at the fourths.

Riviera !!!

Sand Hills !?!

Riviera wins out of respect for Hogan because I doubt he would accept a tie.  

Riviera goes one up.

[Tim Liddy]

Great conversation. I feel like I am sitting in a smoked filled room, beverage in hand after a round with friends. I wish I know both golf courses better, but this will enrich my experience when I play experience them again.

[John Kavanaugh]

One thing that I may be missing, but may show up later, is that Crenshaw did not create more of a tribute to Riviera's fourth hole at Sand Hills. 

[Adam Clayman]

 The hole calls for a low draw flown approximately 230 yards to negate whatever the effects of the kikuyu are in even the worst of conditions.

I lipped out my ace without this approach. So, I guess you say it doesn't call for it, but encourages it.

[John Kavanaugh]

 The hole calls for a low draw flown approximately 230 yards to negate whatever the effects of the kikuyu are in even the worst of conditions.

I lipped out my ace without this approach. So, I guess you say it doesn't call for it, but encourages it.

Adam,

Damn the curse of the lipped ace.  I was trying as much as anything to put myself into the shoes of those who have not been as fortunate as me to play the course in optimal conditions.  Please describe the shot you manufactured that would have such excellent results without using the redan characteristics.

[Adam Clayman]

Well John, at 234 yards that day, it was a driver for me. I tried as I might to hit a slight fade, thinking it would need to stop. Unfortunately at the time, my sunglasses were useless to see anything. My host starting yelling "Go in" and I promptly responded with "don't go in". (There must've been 300, or more, people there that day)  I did make the deuce though. As we left the teeing ground my host informed me that if it had gone in, I would've ben only the 21st person in history to have recorded an ace there.

[Jim Eder]

I was trying to not post this but I can't help it. I LOVE this thread!!! I never thought of comparing these courses so directly. I love them both (but don't know Sand Hills as well as I should having only played a few times). I am replaying it in my mind and comparing and bouncing back and forth and reading the comments and thinking about them and revisiting my thoughts once again. It is like comparing kids, how do you love one more than the other? I will see and learn........................... Thanks John for this awesome thread!!

[Tim Martin]

It is like comparing kids, how do you love one more than the other? I will see and learn........................... Thanks John for this awesome thread!!

Jim-What a great analogy!

[John Kirk]

Back after driving north to Hydesville, California, to see my sister for a day or so.

Another apples to oranges comparison, similar to the third hole matchup.

#4 at Riviera is just gorgeous.  I love the huge fronting bunker.  It offers the chance for a 40-50 yard bunker shot for a mishit or popped up tee shot.  Similar to the third at Pasatiempo, the hole is well designed as a par four, with obstacles designed for the weaker player.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I've lost my ability to easily draw the ball the last 3-4 years.  I has to do with getting the club slightly stuck behind me, making it impossible to attack the ball from the inside.  About 10-12 years ago, I carried a driver and a 3-wood (since then, my second club has been 4-wood), where the 3-wood was well suited to a high draw.  For a few years, I use driver on holes that were straight or turned right, and used 3-wood off the tee for dogleg left holes.  Back then, I would have stood on the 4th tee at Riviera and tried to hit the big draw with the fairway wood.  Today, I'd hit a full driver from 236, maybe aim left and try to fade it a bit, knowing that missing long is a relatively easy up and down.  Even from 222, playing slightly longer than the yardage, it's still a little driver, maybe the 4-wood, if the first or second fairway wood shots of the day (second shots on holes #1 and #2) went well.  Great hole.

But I'm going to give the win to the 4th at Sand Hills, a majestic and spectacularly beautiful downhill par 4.  The long range view beyond the golf course is especially nice here, the best of the best.  Like the 2nd hole, the fairway is reasonably generous, maybe 60 yards, but off the fairway is native grass, a near certain one stroke penalty.  From the double diamond tees (about 465 yards), a good drive will leave me a 4- or 5-iron to the green.   The second tee, the original back tee, will yield a short iron approach, but the right fairway bunker pinches the fairway at the exact wrong spot for me.  In either case, the tee shot piques the senses and demands excellence.

The approach shot is sublime.  The green, perhaps the only unnatural green construction on the course, is benched into the side of the dune, perched a few feet above grade.  The rather simple disc green, sloped significantly back to front, falls away to sloped short grass recovery areas short and right of the green, well designed to encourage a variety of short game recovery plays, from putter to flop wedge.

Perhaps the most significant drawback at Riviera is the limited nature of short game recovery, due to the limitations of kikuyu grass.  Not only is the fourth green at Sand Hills a beautiful creation, once again demanding excellence in execution, but the short game plays there are outstanding.

Sand Hills #4 wins.  All square.

[Chris Johnston]

Outstanding thread!

[John Kirk]

Our Neil Regan produced this wonderful photo a few years ago:

[John Kavanaugh]

Family obligations have made it difficult for me to proceed in a manner both these great courses deserve.  We will return January 3rd with the battle of the fifths.  It is my hope to make that dreaded return to work a touch brighter.

Thank you to all those who have said kind things to me both on this thread and behind the scenes. 

Merry Christmas 

[Scott Szabo]

Bump.

[RJ_Daley]

Well, I've been to Riviera, but haven't played it, so I'm not really playing along. 

All I can say is that JK doesn't write (sound) like JK on this thread.  Am I wrong or is this a different writer's voice that JK has assumed as host of this fine thread?    Don't let my distraction and observation knock you off the subject.  I'm looking forward to seeing how those well familiar with both courses score it out.

 I don't have Shack's book on Riviera, so I don't know what the answer is, but I'll ask; did Dave and Dan, the bunkerhill boys, change any significant green contours in their work there, or was it totally confined to bunker resto?  Given their work on Sand Hills, did their work at Riviera translate to any similar feel at all as to bunker placement and strategy relative to the green contours?  Since I don't think Thomas's fundamental golf design architecture was changed in  my limitted  understanding, by Dave and Dan under Ben and Bill's guidance, I'd guess the answer is, no. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Dick,

I don't see any reference to bunker hill boys or even the work Crenshaw did at Riviera in Shack's book.  It is my believe that Thomas had more to do with the design of Sand Hills then Crenshaw had to do with Riviera.  The modern work done by group Fazio is another topic that will be covered in the bunker thread.

[John Kavanaugh]

I was reared on a course where we had a return to the clubhouse after four holes where the clubhouse rats would request a report on the match.  This has stuck with me in that I always like to know where I stand after the fourth.  We have reached the fifth in this match and Riviera stands one up, in my account, and one hell of a four hole stretch it has been.

My greatest and perhaps most pleasant surprise found at Riviera was the fifth.  I was going to write this before I peeked at Shack's book thinking I was some lone discoverer of the greatness of this hole.  Between the praise of Thomas, Shackelford and Doak I am not even Musketeer worthy.  To paraphrase in the most liberal sense the fifth at Riviera is the template from which the modern movement of quasi-minimalism was built.  It is a wonderful use of natural landform in addition to earth movement of a scale unusual in its day.  It is also not lost that it is sandwiched between two very fine par 3's and requires a drive of unusual accuracy while being prodded by an uncomfortable right side hazard.  A large mound on the right, now common in modern minimalism, the bunker on the left green side, and interesting green...it's all there.

The fifth at Sand Hills provides a worthy opponent in the form of a hole that is so much more than a single hole in itself.  One of my favorite things when playing the great courses across this country is when I am told that I just need to throw caution to the wind and play the back tee.  We waited until our second go around for that pleasure which was fine as the hole from the up tees is fun in itself.  Oh well, we have all heard of half par holes, the fifth at Sand Hills may be a hole and a half.

Match play at the fifths

Riviera !!!

Sand Hills ?

Riviera wins and goes 2 up

[John Kirk]

I see the battle of the 5th holes as a closer contest.

The 5th hole at Riviera heads to the bottom of the barranca, perhaps the most downhill hole on the course.  The tee shot is pretty tight, and the second shot plays about one less club downhill.  The green is very sloped down to the left.  It's easy to leave yourself a 40-60 foot downhill or sidehill putt here.  A solid drive will leave me about a 7-iron to the green.  This second shot is great fun.  

The big mound/ridge on the right side of the fairway fascinates me.  My understanding is the mound was constructed, an unnatural feature.  But it's so large, so different than anything else on the course, that it looks and feels natural to me.  It seems to me the big mound should have two functions.  First, it obscures the view of the green from the right side.  Second, weaker players could have used the downhill slope on the far side of the mound to help propel a longer second shot (fairway wood) down the hill and onto the green.  I don't know whether the club ever used the mound for this purpose, but the mound is covered with thick, deep grass, so it is useless in this regard.    



The 5th at Sand Hills is a subtle pleasure, a nice example of how Coore and Crenshaw used a simple feature to dictate a hole design.  In this case, the green is situated between a large dune ridge on the right and a smaller mound, perhaps 30 yards long and just a few feet high, guarding the left side.  The orientation of the green favors an approach from the right side of the generous fairway; as expected, missing your mark aiming for the right side is more penalizing.  From the regular back tees, this is a fairly short par 4, and I can usually use a pitching wedge for my second shot, give or take a club.  But there is a "double diamond" back tee box which makes the drive much more demanding, and leaves a middle-iron, which makes the second shot over the mound from the left side a more dicey proposition.  The 5th green at Sand Hills is a rather gentle one, with a couple of subtle features.

I play this hole by aiming down the middle and taking what I get off the tee.  I'm not talented enough to try for one side of the fairway here.  If I end up with a good angle I'll take it.  The 5th green location is sensational.

To recap, we are comparing two holes with similar sized mounds that help dictate hole strategy.  One is perfectly natural, the other man-made.  Riviera gets the win here, in part for the amazing, unnatural fairway ridge that looks so right.

Riviera wins the 5th hole, and goes 1 up.

(By the way, if you know the Riviera ridge is natural, I will change my analysis to match reality...thanks.)

[Jim Franklin]

Isn't the bunker on the 5th at Sand Hills one of the two manmade bunkers on the course? I loved the hole as I eagled it the last time I played there. Both holes are fantastic by the way.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Life has once again gotten in the way of my postings but I will quickly note that the large man made mound at Riviera has been documented to also protect the green in flood events.  With the sixth hole coming up I am afraid this match is getting lop sided. Funny though how I feel Sand Hills will make a run just before the half. Isn't that always the way of great matches.

[Tom_Doak]

Isn't the bunker on the 5th at Sand Hills one of the two manmade bunkers on the course? I loved the hole as I eagled it the last time I played there. Both holes are fantastic by the way.

Jim:

The majority of the bunkers at Sand Hills are man made.  A bunch of them may have had the start of a blowout to work from, but they were dug out and changed.  There were only a handful of really big bunkers on the site when I walked it prior to groundbreaking ... the two big ones on #18, the left side of #1, the bunker in front of #15 green, and the big blowout left of #4 were all there, perhaps a few others.

[RJ_Daley]

Tom D, can you comment on any work or consulting that Bill and Ben did and Dan and Dave did on the ground at the Riv that may have any relevance to this discussion?  I really have no idea.  I get JK's drift that Thomas may have had more influence on Sand Hills than anyone involved at Sand Hills could possibly have had on the current Riv features, placement, contours or strategy.  That sounds right to me.  But, I'm just asking about the irony, if it is that, that Ben and Bill, and ground crew of Dan and Dave did tread on Riv to whatever extent.

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