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Chris Johnston

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. Sweet.
« Reply #200 on: January 25, 2011, 07:59:26 PM »
Matt -

What is the small white stake in the sixth photo?

Michael - That is the leftside 150 yard stake.

Mac Plumart

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. Sweet.
« Reply #201 on: January 25, 2011, 09:11:25 PM »
I tell you, Riviera looks amazing.  I've never played it, but it looks amazing.  However, this thread really highlights to me how extra-ordinary Sand Hills really is.  It is truly something beyond special.

Great thread, John!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Alex Miller

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. Sweet.
« Reply #202 on: January 25, 2011, 09:16:47 PM »
For people who do not know, a ball left of 18 at Riviera rarely kicks onto the green. There's just enough space between the steep part of the hill and the fringe that it take a good deal of luck to bounce on. And of course the kikuyu is brutal, especially from a downhill lie.

Matt Bosela

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. Sweet.
« Reply #203 on: January 26, 2011, 12:50:07 AM »
Matt B,

Am I to assume from the pics you hit the fairway off the tee, blocked your second straight right into the trees and made double?

Scott,

Actually, I blocked my tee shot into the trees, punched out to 80 yards then hit my lob wedge long onto the hillside.  I'd take three to get down from there for my double.

I was playing with the assistant pro that day and when he saw me block my tee shot, he insisted that I couldn't end my day that way and told me to play two balls, with the second hitting the fairway.  The approach shot shown above was really taken for posterity purposes.

Scott Szabo

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. Sweet.
« Reply #204 on: January 26, 2011, 09:00:07 AM »
Matt B.

Wonderful pics of Sand Hills.  I never tire of looking at that place.  If I ever return, I think I'm going to try a bit harder to remember my camera and spend a while late in the day simply taking pictures.  Thanks for sharing.

Scott

"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

John Kavanaugh

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Riviera vs Sand Hills. seventeen
« Reply #205 on: January 26, 2011, 10:22:39 AM »
The 17th at Sand Hills unfortunately rests on the laurels of a tee that no longer exists.  I really wish people would give it up and quit climbing back there to take pictures.  It also may be the only hole on the course where I had preconceived notions and looked forward to playing.  The hole is beautiful, simple and complex to a degree that reminds me of Audrey Hepburn.  It's a signature hole on a course that doesn't need to introduce itself.

Even Lanny Wadkins has said that the 17th at Riviera is underrated strategically, and only because at its length the fronting cross bunkers are in play for the bombers but out of the way for golfers.  Its a simple straight forward long par 5 that will humble you when you find yourself still mid iron out when the pros reach it in two.  A fine hole that can be found all over the world.

Match play at 17.

Riviera !

Sand Hills ??

Sand Hills wins to go down one with one to go.

While I am very grateful to the other JK for his excellent match play analysis the official match will end tomorrow, unless Sand Hills rallies from three down to tie.  If so we will move on back to the first for a sudden death play off that will conclude on Monday.  I can tell you now that I have no idea how this will turn out unless we get past the first hole.  No way Sand Hills loses the second.


John Mayhugh

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. Doomsday in 15.
« Reply #206 on: January 26, 2011, 12:08:57 PM »
Mayhugh hasn't played Sand Hills.  There is a God. 

I haven't played Lawrence County CC either. 

A few more pics of the 15th as Sean Arble requested:







John Kavanaugh

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. seventeen
« Reply #207 on: January 26, 2011, 12:24:40 PM »
Thanks John.  I hope people someday get a chance to see how at the opening Riviera had seedlings planted where all these trees exist today.  I believe that Thomas knew they would grow.

John Kirk

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. seventeen
« Reply #208 on: January 26, 2011, 05:17:07 PM »
I like JK's analysis that although the 17th at Riviera is a wonderful golf hole, it's a design that can be found anywhere.  It takes two good shots to have a reasonable length third, and then the third shot plays way more uphill than it looks.  The green has lots of good pin placements, too.  I feel it's kind of underrated in the grand scheme of things, a very good golf hole.

#17 at Sand Hills is unique and very attractive looking.  At 150 yards, it's another par 3 at Sand Hills where it is hard to hit the green in regulation.  During one visit where I played 5-6 rounds, I missed the green every time until the last round, where I decided to punch a little 8-iron, staring at the right bunker, traveling low and curving a few yards left.  I though this shot followed the grass on the hole nicely.  A miss short would still be on grass, and a punch shot is a bit more reliably directed.  I reached the green and made a 3, not to mention the joy of hitting a specialty shot and pulling it off.

Sand Hills has difficult par 3s, especially #13 and #17.  There's a reason why there are so many pictures of Sand Hills #17.  JK makes a compelling case to award the hole to Sand Hills, despite the relative simplicity of a par 3 hole.  But I don't have to choose, since Sand Hills already closed out the match.

My match results correlate with my "Doak" rankings of each course.  When Ian Linford solicited our opinions on golf courses a couple years ago, I gave Sand Hills 10 and Riviera 9, so it validates my ratings somewhat.  Of course, I believe that Tom Doak awards the same ratings, so maybe I'm just parroting the authoritative opinion.  I try to be unbiased.

Riviera's greatest shortcoming as a golf course is the kikuyu grass, which places significant limitations on the type of short shots that can be attempted.  It limits the creativity a player may wish to display.  Would it be a 10 with bentgrass, with fescue?  Maybe with a first class fescue surface, because that's the only grass that really opens up the game and its possibilities.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 05:18:49 PM by John Kirk »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. seventeen
« Reply #209 on: January 26, 2011, 05:23:38 PM »


Riviera's greatest shortcoming as a golf course is the kikuyu grass, which places significant limitations on the type of short shots that can be attempted.  It limits the creativity a player may wish to display.  Would it be a 10 with bentgrass, with fescue?  Maybe with a first class fescue surface, because that's the only grass that really opens up the game and its possibilities.


This may be the biggest difference I have in opinion with you concerning Riviera.  I think the kikuyu is a wonderful surface, much better than bent grass but not quite as good as fescue.  I think I had played Riviera before I had ever played a fescue course and told my host it was the finest playing surface I had ever seen.


JMEvensky

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. seventeen
« Reply #210 on: January 26, 2011, 05:24:45 PM »
Does kikuyu play similarly to zoysia?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. seventeen
« Reply #211 on: January 26, 2011, 05:30:03 PM »
Does kikuyu play similarly to zoysia?

Yes, but it feels firmer underneath.  One thing I never understood about zoysia is how or why it makes carts drive funny.  I've never driven a cart on kikuyu.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. seventeen
« Reply #212 on: January 26, 2011, 05:38:10 PM »
The kikuyu at Riviera is great in many respects.  The ball sits up so nicely in the fairway, but is very difficult to judge around the greens.  You can putt on it, but trying to bounce a ball onto a green is almost out of the question.  Most sort shots are lofted onto the green, with very few exceptions.

You know what other grass is tough to putt on?  Dwarf bluegrass make speed very hard to judge.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. seventeen
« Reply #213 on: January 26, 2011, 06:18:13 PM »
Sean A:

Sorry, just looked through my Riv pics and I don't have pics of the whole of 15 - just three pics of the green!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. 18. Draw your own conclusion.
« Reply #214 on: January 27, 2011, 11:16:19 AM »
Life can get in the way of a 30+ day thread and each and every day I have taken time to consider how play at the 18th will turn out.  I have decided to proceed without opening Geoff's book or look to Ran's review.

I think the 18th at Riviera is the finest 18th hole in Championship golf.  The location may have created the modern amphitheater made popular at TPC courses.  The drive from the championship tee is so difficult I don't think I can clear the hill but those who do must stay far enough left to avoid the trees.  Any shot missing the green leaves a difficult chip from all angles except short, and when is a pro ever short.  It is the one hole in the country where if I needed a pro to make a bogey on the 18th to win a bet I would sit his ass.

When I think of the 18th at Riviera I think relief, I'm tired, hungry and happy to climb that long hill back to the clubhouse.

My opinion of the 18th at Sand Hills is that it is the finest 18th hole in casual golf.  I enjoy that after having a beautiful stroll through the Sand Hills a bit of excellence is demanded from the golfer to complete a round.  I'd hate to have to make a par to shoot the kind of score that eases you to sleep on a flight home.  A wonderful job was done exploding your senses with beauty, kinda like the first time you saw a tramp stamp on a good girl.  A perfect ending to a perfect day.

When I think of the 18th of Sand Hills it is with a touch of sadness as I realize a great thing is about to end.

Match play at the 18th.

Riviera !!!

Sand Hills ?!?

Sand Hills wins the 18th to bring the match to a draw.

I have decided to go immediately to the first tee in sudden death format.

You may note that at the start of the match Riviera won the first hole because of the green site alone.  Over the course of the last month some things have changed and we seem to be focusing on the holes in total.  This is what we will do here:

When looking at the holes in total Riviera wins the tee shot as hitting off that hill next to the dining room is one of the great thrills in golf.  As before Riviera also wins the green site battle.  After much review and consideration however, Sand Hills wins the hole in total and the match.

It appears I was wrong.  I like Sand Hills more than Riviera as proven by this exercise.

Never mind.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 11:23:25 AM by John Kavanaugh »

George Pazin

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. 18. Draw your own conclusion.
« Reply #215 on: January 27, 2011, 11:37:01 AM »
Sounds more like the match was halved.

Interesting thread, John, you should do another one like this. Maybe Sawgrass v Bandon Trails? (another championship venue versus a course you love, I think)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. 18. Draw your own conclusion.
« Reply #216 on: January 27, 2011, 11:47:59 AM »
Sorry Solomon, Sand Hills won the match in sudden death.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 11:59:52 AM by John Kavanaugh »

Jason Topp

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. 18. Draw your own conclusion.
« Reply #217 on: January 27, 2011, 11:52:38 AM »
John:

I have enjoyed this thread as much as any in a long time.  I have not contributed because I only know Riviera from television.

Thanks for doing this.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. 18. Draw your own conclusion.
« Reply #218 on: January 27, 2011, 12:09:47 PM »
JK-I will comment from the perspective that I have never played either course but found the thread extremely enjoyable nonetheless. To have the match come done to sudden death is all I could ask for as an onlooker. Such impassioned posts and reasoning behind the awarding of each hole as well as the month long time frame it took to play out only added to the fun. Well done and a helluva lot better than shoveling another foot of snow here in cheery New England. Add the sad emoticon for thread being over.

Chris Shaida

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. 18. Draw your own conclusion.
« Reply #219 on: January 27, 2011, 12:21:45 PM »
I too really enjoyed and learned a lot from this thread. Thanks to the OP JK and thanks to the OPs frequent interlocutor JK ( John Kirk) for an energetic, well articulated, occasionally prickly (where would the fun be otherwise?) discussion.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. 18. Draw your own conclusion.
« Reply #220 on: January 27, 2011, 01:57:47 PM »
To the two JK's: 

A fun exercise and I think Sand Hills is a clear winner, which is saying a lot, because I firmly believe that Riviera is one of the finest courses in the country and an architectural destination of the first order.  In terms of match play, I think it might be more meaningful to match up the courses on the basis of par as opposed to the first hole vs the first hole, etc.  Under that system, I think Sand Hills would still win, but it might allow the commentators to compare more apples to apples, as opposed to the other analysis.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kirk

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. 18. Draw your own conclusion.
« Reply #221 on: January 27, 2011, 01:59:43 PM »
Hi Chris.  Thanks for the mention.  Chris and I had the pleasure of playing golf together a couple weeks ago.

The competition between golf holes became interesting on the back nine.  The best holes on each course matched up more frequently.  Like baseball pitching matchups, where the modern practice is to pit one team's best pitcher against the other team's ace.  The 18th holes of each courses are both aces.

It all depends on your value system, whether you value beauty over shot requirements.  You can't believe how far uphill the tee shot on Riviera's 18th is until you stand on the tee.  One of those instances where the television flattens out one's perspective from one's living room.  The walk up the steep hill would be energizing, if it weren't the 18th hole.  Like his par 3 14th hole at Stanford University, Mr. Thomas uses a natural amphitheater for a greensite.  If you can get the tee shot into position, the fairway wood approach is a great shot to try and execute.  Miss the green and you'll probably make 5.  Really tough to make par here.

I hit a memorable shot during one of my three rounds at the great old course.  I hit a solid push into the eucalypti.  With about 210 in, I hit a low controlled draw through a hole in the canopy and onto the green.  My host suggested it was one of the only times he had seen the shot executed.  I think I made 5 anyway.

Like the 17th hole at Sand Hills, the 18th is so beautiful, you can't take your eyes off of it.  In fact, in my small universe, I might suggest that Sand Hills has the two most beautiful finishing holes.  It's not as difficult as it initially seems, once you learn the second shot is approximately two clubs uphill.  If I have 150 yards in, then it's 5-iron.  All the big trouble is in the front of the green, which is set inside a bowl that tends to gather balls onto the green.  The green is sloped but not overly complex, so a miss to the back of the green can be managed.

Since my match is closed out, I don't have to choose.  I like the look at Sand Hills, but I like the "shot values" a bit more at Riviera.  Both greens have a consistent back to front slope.  At Riviera, the variety of predicaments for missing the green is greater, due to the concave nature of the 18th green complex at Sand Hills.

Let's call it a draw.  Sand Hils wins four more holes, I think 9-5-4 draws, but it may have been 10-6-2 draws.  I tried hard to choose each time.

As the years go by, I find dimished motivation to express my opinions here.  You join GolfClubAtlas (thank you John VanderBorght for sponsoring me).  You spend years immersed in studying courses, and at some point, you form your own concrete philosophy about the game, and what is important.  It's nice to periodically find the right forum to share your thoughts, without repeating yourself constantly.  Thanks so much for letting me participate.  


John Kavanaugh

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. 18. Draw your own conclusion.
« Reply #222 on: January 27, 2011, 02:24:03 PM »
I'm sitting consumed by range sweat overlooking snow covered Indiana. God am I happy this thead is done. It felt good putting down the pen and hitting the clubs again.

Thanks to everyone for making my thead better than Tom Doak's.  Good try Tom and better luck next time. 

George Pazin

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Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. 18. Draw your own conclusion.
« Reply #223 on: January 27, 2011, 02:45:15 PM »
Thanks to everyone for making my thead better than Tom Doak's.  Good try Tom and better luck next time. 

 :) Actually, what you said was that your thread would draw more hits than Tom's. His had 5600+ views, yours has 4800+ views. Sorry, Charlie, better luck next time...

There's more than enough room for both.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera vs Sand Hills. What courses are next?
« Reply #224 on: January 28, 2011, 01:40:49 PM »
Courses I am not qualified to compare that I would like to see in match play:

Ballyneal vs NGLA

The Alotian vs Augusta National 

Medinah vs Torrey Pines

I believe each of these courses have a connection that would make a match interesting.  I think Torrey Pines could take Medinah, all courses included.


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