[Tom_Doak]

I don't understand the bunker at the front right of the green of so many modern versions (as depicted above) as that is precisely the place a well played draw should land and thereby it thwarts the crafted approach.  Just beyond the green on the right makes more sense for the player who fails to move the ball right to left and it too agressive as George noted. 

Also, the original does require an intimidating, though much shorter, approach from the right with the two bunkers crafted into the upslope.  Most imitators offer an uninhibited avenue to approach from the right.   

Michael:  I didn't understand your last paragraph there, but the bunker(s) short right of the green on many imitations of the hole are a vestige of the  "two bunkers crafted into the upslope" on the original hole.  The bunker that appears to be front right at Pacific Dunes is actually 50 yards short of the green, but the downslope behind it conceals the distance.

[Mike Hendren]

Tom, I was thinking of this example:



Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

That bunker is just there to make the transition back to natural grade, after the right side of the green itself had been built up 3-4 feet to make the right-to-left kick.  You will see a bunker in that position a lot if the Redan has been crafted out of a relatively flat area.

[John Kirk]

Let me suggest that the modern interpretation of the Redan is better, that it offers more compelling options for the player.

I live in Oregon, and have played both Bandon Redans enough to have an opinion.  I've played the 17th at Pacific Dunes 25 times or so.  For most of the last 15 years, I've played a draw, or at least have been able to play a draw reliably.  Most times on this hole I played the low draw, even into the quartering wind.  The 17th is one of thoe holes that offers great ball watching from the tee.  If you can hit your spot, the ball will take its sweet time getting to the left side of the green, but it'll get there.

For the last three or four years, I've lost the reliable draw, and tend to hit the ball straight.  A straight shot at the front of the green still works.  Sometimes, I'll be feeling sporty, and try to fade a 7-wood into the slope, and have succeeded at least once.  Very satisfying.

Similarly, I have played the 12th at Old Macdonald several times.  I've hit the green twice in seven attempts.  From the middle tees one day, I bounced a low 5-iron up the slope to a short pin perfectly, and felt like a king for 12 minutes.  Another day I tried the faded 4-wood from the back tees to a middle pin and made an easy two putt par.

Just because you couldn't fly it onto the Redan in 1925 doesn't mean it was better then.

Tom, the 12th at Old Macdonald does not appear to have the high right kick slope previously described in this thread.  Does it? 

[Kyle Harris]

I've heard from numerous, reliable sources, that have measured the original at North Berwick, stating the the first third of the green is sloped toward the tee.

Can anyone DISPROVE this statement with data?

If not, what is the best adaptation of the redan at North Berwick?

[Tom_Doak]

Kyle,

I will go back to my notes tomorrow and check on the exact measurements.  The front right corner of the green is much higher than the front left, but my memory is that hardly any of the green drains to the front.

[Sean_A]

Most of the modern Redans I have seen (including most of the six or so that I have built) are different than the original for one or more of the reasons below:

1.  Modern architects learn not to drain the entire green off at one spot, and that's what the green at North Berwick does.  So, you either see part of the green draining to the front right (that's why it's flatter than the original) or somewhere out to the mid doe ir back left behind the bunker (whereas at North Berwick the 16th tee is raised higher in that location).

Tom

You (and a few folks a week or so ago on this site) really have me questioning my memory of the Redan.  I would have sworn there were two drainage points, front left and to the rear of the green - probably middle to left.   There is a sharpish rise to the tabletop green, but still an even rise.  I thought the right side was a bit higher than the left (through the length of the green) and the front part sloped in the direction between the tee and the edge of the sea - beyond the beach.  About halfway through the green the slope moves much more toward the rear.  In my minds eye I am visualizing a very slight rise the middle (continuing the movement of the apron) of the green then it cascades to the rear with much of the slope happening in the first 15 feet.  Am I all wet?

Ciao

[Simon Holt]

Sean,

The snow thawed for a few days after our last discussion and I wandered out there.  Def no significant slope towards the tee I'm afraid.  Please come and visit in 2011.

Simon

[Sean_A]

Sean,

The snow thawed for a few days after our last discussion and I wondered out there.  Def no significant slope towards the tee I'm afraid.  Please come and visit in 2011.

Simon

Simon

How bout insignificant slope?  Tee hee.

Ciao

[Simon Holt]

I thought you might say that!   None of those either!!  And now lots of snow again- no golf in 5 weeks arghhh!!!

[Sean_A]

I thought you might say that!   None of those either!!  And now lots of snow again- no golf in 5 weeks arghhh!!!

Simon

I shall have to bow to superior experience, but the pic below accurately reflects my memory.  Where am I going wrong with the explanation?  Are you saying the entre green runs away from the tee or perhaps the first half is level then runs away?


Ciao

[Simon Holt]

I think it is perhaps the angle of the tee relative to the green that may be swaying you.  It is much more in line with the green than people think- perhaps an illusion caused by the ridge?  Not sure- you did have me second guessing myself and I am still happy to be proved wrong by an overhead shot or drawings but I stood on the front of the green and it all runs away from the tee.  I actually spent quite a while there just to check.  The down slope does increase at the middle of the green though (on the right hand side) so perhaps this also gave you the impression of an up slope on the green at the front.

Ok- getting the evil eyes off the good lady for typing in bed at 130am so will return tomorrow.

[Simon Holt]

Just read your post again Sean- yes, more of a flat start at the front of the green than a full on down slope but certainly not sloped to the tee.

[Bill_McBride]

My recollection from 4 plays - if you ran a hose on the front of the green it would all run toward Bass Rock.

[Lester George]

Ronald,

Respectfully, the 3rd at Ballyhack is not a redan.  However, the few redans we have designed and built do have a high enough shoulder to move the ball towards the deep portion of the green.  I agree with you that most don't.

Lester

[Ian Andrew]

I built my first in 1999 at Ballantrae, it was based upon the adapted version of the concept. I built the green using a 4-5% grade on the front section that works very effectively in moving the ball left and around the bunker. I know the shoulder above the green was not high enough and watched in despair as a few balls stayed there on occasions where moisture and being uncut conspired to slow the ball down enough to occasional hang there. I realized then that the shoulder had to much higher than I thought.

The biggest lesson came through circumstance. The hole was shortened when the houses in that area had the lot lines change due to an error by the planners. The hole was built and not finished and the lot changes required the hole be shortened from 195 to 165. I can say from multiple plays that a short Redan removed all the reasons for bouncing the ball in and dead aim with a slight cut was far more effective.

They are super easy to conceptualize, but damned hard to make great. The reverse Redan at the Creek was the one I always thought had terrific slopes.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lester,
OK, how about this as the inspiration. 

[Lester George]

Jim,

Very nice!  That is exactly where I got the idea! Where is it?  Ha!

Lester

[Chris_Clouser]

I have seen several versions of Redans and in my mind the only one that seemingly captures the feeling of the original is the 3rd hole at Purgatory in Noblesville, IN.  You can barely see the entrance to the green as it runs uphill from the tee.  No one wants to go left because that is death.  The green slopes at least 6 feet from front right to back left and there is a small area on the front right to place the pin.  From what I understand of the original hole, holes where you can see the green from the tee are similar to the original only in the fact that the green slopes generally in the same direction.

[Tim Nugent]

An old Caddie showed us some flat pads off the front left of #4 green and asserted that they where old tees for #15.  Does anyone have any insight in to this (Melvyn - part of the 9-holer?) or was this just the 'Caddie-Lore"?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Lester,
Moortown, the Mackenzie course. The hole is called "Gibraltar".

 

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