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Adam Clayman

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Influence of the Pro "Game"
« on: December 17, 2010, 11:15:44 AM »
What do others think about the current Pro game influence?

My estimation is that it has been an ever decreasing influence, not only on the venues being built, but also Golf as a whole.

I ask because we likely tend to become a bit myopic in this treehouse and I want to see if my observations are just personal, or, if others find the influence the pro game has on them is virtually non-existent.



"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2010, 11:23:32 AM »
The first thought I have is on pace of play.
How many players, especially juniors, look at putts from every angle now? Just like the pros.
Or don't look at distance, pull a club, or start their pre-shot routine until the other player has hit.

Harris Nepon

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2010, 11:25:58 AM »
I can say that since I've become interested in GCA over the past year or so, the pro game has much less influence on me if any at all.

I'm ashamed to admit now that I always thought if the pro's played a course it had to be good. Thankfully this site came along andI realized how wrong that is.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2010, 11:30:51 AM »
I wish it was a decreasing influence.  When new courses start getting built again, if most are sub 7000 with no back tees for people who won't show up, I will agree.

But, even here, there is a thread on bunker sand saves by pros.  It influences design way too much because the pro game certainly is not reflective of Golf in America.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2010, 11:46:55 AM »
Adam -  I think I understand what you are suggesting, and you may be right moving foward, but I think only partly right.  The ethos of the professional game, the expectations that go with that ethos and that are engendered by it, and the power of the associated images -- all these have become so meshed/intertwined with the amatuer game for so many decades that unravelling the two will take a lot of doing, and many years of doing, and that is assuming there is the will to do it.  Golf will be carrying that baggage with it for years to come...but as i say, I think you may be right that a suitcase or two will be left behind.

Hope you are well.

Peter

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2010, 11:53:59 AM »
Not to mention that if design outfits led by pros continue to dominate the market, how can we say that they don't affect design?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2010, 12:53:04 PM »
Adam

  I think the pro game has enormous influence and will continue to have enormous influence.  As an initial matter, the golf boom (or more properly the golf bubble) of the late 1990's and early 2000's was generated in large part by excessive exuberance surrounding the Tiger effect.  Lots of people took up the game and developers and at least one industry group (NGF) promoted course development at a rate beyond which the market would ever reasonably bear. The effects of those decisions will be felt for many years to come for a variety of reasons not the least of which is weaker clubs cannibalizing one another by continually trying to undersell the competition.

 Secondarily and focused more on the game itself, golf is an aspirational game. Most golfers dream of being better golfers. Some actually do the work to get there and some just buy equipment but either way, watching the pros stokes those aspirations for many people.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 01:24:53 PM by Rory Connaughton »

Jud_T

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2010, 12:59:13 PM »
Adam,

IMHO it has more to do with the current state of the global economy.  In 20 years when things are booming again and everyone's tired of minimalism, you'll see all kinds of crap being built again...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kris Shreiner

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2010, 01:34:25 PM »
Adam,

Holiday greetings to you sir!

Interesting question. I believe it depends on the facet of the game you are talking about. It's hard to see where the pro game is really advancing much, besides lining pockets and some charitable efforts which are worthwhile, but is the continued decline of the game worth the tradeoff?

Design - Still far too great! Preoccupation with length still rampant, except for those with nuanced understanding of what makes for truely great golf. How is this leading to a qiucker, better game? Ever larger acreage will be needed over which to contest the sport. A pathetic and grossly irresponsible way forward, directly countering a global direction to consume less wastefully and conserve resources. The greed and arrogance of many of these folks knows no bounds, yet they wonder why golf gets a black eye and is despised by many non-golfers.

Equipment- See above. In addition, the industry, thru fear of lawsuits, continues to cause the USGA and others to cower, instead of taking charge of the sport! Does the equipment industry dictate the specs for the football used in the NFL or college-hell no. Hockey sticks in NHL? Baseballs and bats in MLB. Basketballs in NBA? Again, the idea that the game owes the industry a profit center is the biggest pile of rubbish I've ever seen. Are the equipment folks paying for the ever-increasing cost of the larger staduims, ie. bigger courses needed to play their equipment. Of course not! The administrative bodies need to go on offense, legally and otherwise, and tell the industry we set the rules, you guys are free to manufacture the equipment within those specs...or find another business!!!

Pace of play- Awful influence. Hit those pros hard with penalities for slow play. Game wide revolution against "dropping anchor" out on the course could turn that around very quickly. In the main, gutless administration is to blame.

Growth of participation- Varied. No question, especially in emerging golf nations, the pro stars are stimulating rooting interest and desire to play. The degree, to which all the potential good they could contribute in well-structured programs and initiatives, is currently marginal and poorly coordinated in most cases. Sad, as there is tremendous potential with collaborative efforts. It just takes some commitment level, besides  the immediate ROI mentality, to put something of significant impact together that can help interested youth and adults get exposure and take up the game.

There are other areas, but in short, the pro game, working with other industry and public partners, has an almost unlimited ability to positively impact change. Do they care enough is the question? If you look at the current body of work...there's a long way to go.

Cheers 8)

"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Eric Smith

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2010, 05:25:53 PM »
I wonder about this too, Adam.  Thinking back to this past April and visiting the PGA Tour event at Harbour Town, it was really quite different for me being there to see the tournament, after having been to the event a dozen or so times in the past and always enjoying it quite a bit.  To me, it just seemed to be so overly commercialized, although it probably always has been, I just didn't pay it much attention when I was younger.  Watching the game played at such a slow pace is particularly agonizing.  Also, I'm pretty familiar with that golf course and love everything about it, yet I couldn't believe how little I cared to be out there on it as a spectator among the masses, compared to being there as a resort player after having had a great time there a couple months prior, along with some other GCAers.

Things of course change and I can tell you that there were tons of kids, boys and girls alike, in their golf shoes and golf apparel huddled around the practice green to catch a glimpse of the big boys on their stage.  So hopefully the passion for the spectacle passes on to the next generations and the pro game continues to flourish and hopefully nourish the game itself.  I certainly hope it does.  

Pat Burke

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2010, 07:53:50 PM »
My question would be.  Where would exposure to the public come from, if not for professional golf.
In most sports, for better or more often for worse, the exposure of professional sports in the USA
drives interest down the line.
Professional golf helps keep the game in the public eye, unfortunately in many cases, it is not the game the majority play.

IMO  Pace of play, from the time of Nicklaus, who was a crawler, is the biggest negative influence from the Tour.


Tim Gavrich

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2010, 09:36:41 PM »
As long as the pros demand greens that stimp at 12 and above and courses in handcrafted perfect shape, so too will the golfers who can afford to live like pros and pony up the money to play such courses often.  To me, they seem to move the needle a whole lot in the greater golf scene, both directly and indirectly.  If the pros, overnight, were to accept 10 as an acceptable every-week green speed, I don't think it would be too long before golfers stopped demanding tour-caliber green speeds and other conditions.  Let's say I'm not holding my breath on that one.  After all, I have to admit I would probably (consciously and sub-consciously) look past a lot of architectural shortcomings in order to play an extremely finely conditioned golf course more often.  So I think that the professional game influences regular golfers a tremendous amount.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Dave Falkner

Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2010, 09:46:54 PM »
Shivas

those stupid driveway marker thingies have helped my swing tremendously!  I'm up to a 12 since starting practicing with them

Adam Clayman

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2010, 12:54:24 AM »
All very thought provoking responses.

I'll try to respond individually when I have more time.

Thank you all for your perspectives.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Adam Clayman

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2010, 11:10:53 AM »
The BWT is apropos here. Each having their own unique perspective.

Bruces initial comment about Pace was germane, as was Rory's about aspirations. Tim's Greens speeds remarks are spot...Too.

Jeff's comments about the Pro/architect is interesting and one I hadn't considered and certainly never considered them to be the commanding model, even in today's down market. Are they really?

Peter as usual, is insightful suggesting that some or parts of the influence will ebb and flow with the times.  And Kris, is likely correct about the emerging markets. Mostly because they are basically second handers and don't have a clue they are following a mostly doomed model. But also about the Pro's inherit ability to affect positive change, too.

Perhaps its my cynical nature that sees through the media manipulation of the Tour's moves. Their corporate image is false, and should just get back to the business of entertaining us with feats of almost inhuman acts, with equipment ill-suited for the task. And thank g-d the kids, that Eric mentions, as long as they aren't there because their parents are forcing them, looking at the big boys the way I looked at a Gale Sayers.

In the final analysis, it's a microcosm for many important issues of the day. We need to be honest and intelligent enough to realize and nurture the positive influences, while obliterating the negative ones.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 11:13:28 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Adam Clayman

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2010, 02:57:13 PM »
As it relates to GCA, the recent trends and accolades certainly aren't going to the typical tour type venue. Rather the opposite appears true. Mike Keiser's continued successful ventures are all geared to the avid retail golfer, not the pros. And aren't the principles found on these fun layouts trickling up to the better players, with Pinehurst #2 going rough-less(more or less) for their upcoming open?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Doug Siebert

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2010, 04:06:29 AM »
Driveway marker things?  Can someone post a link that explains what the hell you're talking about??

I don't see the influence of the pro game waning at all, if anything it gets worse all the time.  People want courses that look like they do on tour.  They buy the clubs and brand names people on tour do.  The more serious ones who actually watch golf on TV regularly adopt their mannerisms - reading putts from every angle, cheater lines, preshot routines that they restart if they get distracted in any way.

People may be sacrificing some spending now because they can't afford it as readily as a few years ago, so maybe they keep their $400 driver from 2008 instead of updating it every year like they were before, and of course banks won't fund new courses just from you saying the magic words "real estate" along with "<insert name of random pro here> signature course".  Maybe golfers can't afford a $150 CCFAD to get those near tour like conditions, so they'll play a $50 course and bitch and moan about all the imperfections they find that aren't on those pretty courses on TV.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Carl Rogers

Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2010, 10:24:34 AM »
Not much said about the Women's Pro game, yet.  Maybe there has not been much influence??

Have Annika, Lorena, Michele, Christie or Paula really increased interest or participation by the 8-12 year old female?  It does not seem so.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2010, 10:42:44 AM »
Interesting comments.  There are many subtle forms of influence. Think of how/why television started scoring professional golf in a different way.  There was a time when the final score was listed as, for example, 280 -- now that is listed as 8 under par.  And listing it that way has meant that the result of each and every individual hole played is thought of in terms of a relationship to par instead of as just one more link in a chain of 18-72 holes.  And that in turn led to high profile golf courses (first the ones that hosted professionals followed by those that didn't) judging themselves (and each of their 18 golf holes) via that same relationship to par.

Peter      

SL_Solow

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Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2010, 12:38:37 PM »
Peter;  scoring to par was not started by tv.  I believe it was commonly attributed to Fred Corcoran in tournaments in the 1930's

Peter Pallotta

Re: Influence of the Pro "Game"
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2010, 12:55:59 PM »
Peter;  scoring to par was not started by tv.  I believe it was commonly attributed to Fred Corcoran in tournaments in the 1930's

Rats!  Not letting the facts get in the way of a good theory -- it's gonna be my downfall, SL.

Thanks - I'd thought it was some CBS producer in the 50s who thought of the idea (for entertainment value).

Peter

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