[Peter Pallotta]

JC - ah. Then I must've misunderstood your original question, because I can't see how you can ask "if template courses maximize the natural features of the land in ways that non-template courses cannot" if you believe that the best holes (concepts or not) arise out of what the land naturally provides. (Of course, you could ask such a question if, having your own strong opinions, you were nonetheless still interested in hearing other/oppossing views, which would be so like you...and so, in fact, I'm wrong again).

Peter

[JC Jones]

Sean,

I keep hearing/seeing people say that the land is not good at YHC.  I beg to differ.  There is much movement in the land as it works towards and away from the river.  

[JC Jones]

"Other architects have seen the value in adapting and reproducing the strategic building blocks of the classic holes. If not actively, they have done so unconsciously, falling in line with my firmly held belief that there are only 50 original golf holes in the world—the other 500,000 or so are mere variations on established themes." - Brian Silva

I think the most interesting part of this quote is the suggestion that an architect who has built a strong knowledge of the great holes has no choice (because they are doing it subconsciously) to reproduce the established themes.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I keep hearing/seeing people say that the land is not good at YHC.  I beg to differ.  There is much movement in the land as it works towards and away from the river.  

JC

I never said YHC wasn't a good piece of property for golf; it is - especially the turf.  I am only saying that it isn't ideal or anywhere near among the best properties.  Which is at the heart of what I am saying about template courses being better suited to good or perhaps even poor properties rather than the elite properties. 

Ciao

[JC Jones]

Sean,

I keep hearing/seeing people say that the land is not good at YHC.  I beg to differ.  There is much movement in the land as it works towards and away from the river.  

JC

I never said YHC wasn't a good piece of property for golf; it is - especially the turf.  I am only saying that it isn't ideal or anywhere near among the best properties.  Which is at the heart of what I am saying about template courses being better suited to good or perhaps even poor properties rather than the elite properties. 

Ciao

I'll agree that it is not an elite piece of property.  I guess I just had low expectations when I got there because I was expecting an airport tarmac.  Which it is far from.

[Mac Plumart]

JC, Weren't you just slightly disappointed in Yeamans Punchbowl?

More than just slightly.  It was the one memorable negative from the day.  Our group talked about it while on the green.  It just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the course.

Here a shot of the punchbowl 17th...

[Derek_Duncan]

Regarding a flat or less than interesting site, I think the point is you have to build or create something.

I don't know why that would have to be "template" holes. Anything would be okay as long as it was interesting and architecturally sound, other than the fact that for purists the only acceptable kind of artifice on a golf course are the classic templates. They usually get a pass.

[Jim_Kennedy]

If templates "get a pass" it's because they are classic and architecturally sound. If you are going to put another type of "artifice" on the ground and expect it to be "pass-worthy" it really has to equal or surpass the classic example, no?

[Joe Bausch]

JC, Weren't you just slightly disappointed in Yeamans Punchbowl?

More than just slightly.  It was the one memorable negative from the day.  Our group talked about it while on the green.  It just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the course.

Here a shot of the punchbowl 17th...

I'll tack on a few more angles of the punchbowl 17th at Yeamans Hall Club:

[Jim_Kennedy]

JC,
I think there is a between-the-lines meaning in the quote.

My Truman-era wife has gone back to college and she came home last night after a day spent taking exams, one of which was math.  One question on that exam went something like: “How many pieces of pizza can you get by making ten cuts”. I thought about it for a minute and answered 20, the correct answer is 56.

Alternately the quote says that, unlike me, the quality architect knows the correct answer.

[Derek_Duncan]

Jim,

Sure template holes are classic and architecturally sound. At least the originals, and those that are faithful to the original concepts.

My point is, if you were an architect and you had a flat or uninteresting site, you've probably got to create something that stands out on top of it and it's okay if it's artificial. But I don't know why you'd necessarily go to "template" architecture--it's not very inventive at this point. There are lots of other creative ways to build striking holes and features that will make a bad site more interesting--Sawgrass comes to mind.

Then my attendant point was, that probably wouldn't fly with some purists here regardless of how sound it was, simply because they weren't template holes. Even though it might look very similar.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim,

Sure template holes are classic and architecturally sound. At least the originals, and those that are faithful to the original concepts.

My point is, if you were an architect and you had a flat or uninteresting site, you've probably got to create something that stands out on top of it and it's okay if it's artificial. But I don't know why you'd necessarily go to "template" architecture--it's not very inventive at this point. There are lots of other creative ways to build striking holes and features that will make a bad site more interesting--Sawgrass comes to mind.

Derek:

Template holes are an easy fallback when you are trying to come up with a concept out of thin air because there is nothing on the ground that is very suggestive.  Other designers fall back on reproducing holes THEY have done before.  And you could make the argument that Macdonald and Raynor simply got there first and established their choices as the templates!

I have had the same problem when we have designed courses from scratch (The Legends and The Rawls Course, to name two, but surely on other holes here and there).  It is very difficult to just start doodling and come up with a fresh concept that's really cool and original, as opposed to starting with some hole or other that you already admire.  Not impossible, mind you, but certainly difficult.  Most of the holes I have done which I would exempt from Brian Silva's list of 50 are holes where we had a very interesting piece of property to start from and the idea grew up from there.

[Derek_Duncan]

Derek:

Template holes are an easy fallback when you are trying to come up with a concept out of thin air because there is nothing on the ground that is very suggestive.  Other designers fall back on reproducing holes THEY have done before.  And you could make the argument that Macdonald and Raynor simply got there first and established their choices as the templates!

I have had the same problem when we have designed courses from scratch (The Legends and The Rawls Course, to name two, but surely on other holes here and there).  It is very difficult to just start doodling and come up with a fresh concept that's really cool and original, as opposed to starting with some hole or other that you already admire.  Not impossible, mind you, but certainly difficult.  Most of the holes I have done which I would exempt from Brian Silva's list of 50 are holes where we had a very interesting piece of property to start from and the idea grew up from there.

Tom,

But ultimately you arrive at holes that don't necessarily invoke or look like the classic template holes, right? Even if you began there as a concept or inspiration. You expand and reinterpret.

The discussion that every hole today is derivative of something else is an interesting one, but it's possible to build good holes without them looking like they're derivatives of other holes. At least, why wouldn't an architect try?

But primarily this topic interests me in regard to shaping and building the kind of strong vertical features we associate with the CBM/SR template holes. That kind of artifice is accepted when the hole is obviously a Redan or Short, but often ridiculed when its origins/inspirations aren't easily decipherable.

[Tom_Doak]

The discussion that every hole today is derivative of something else is an interesting one, but it's possible to build good holes without them looking like they're derivatives of other holes. At least, why wouldn't an architect try?

But primarily this topic interests me in regard to shaping and building the kind of strong vertical features we associate with the CBM/SR template holes. That kind of artifice is accepted when the hole is obviously a Redan or Short, but often ridiculed when its origins/inspirations aren't easily decipherable.

I can't help much with your second point.  As to the first, I don't really agree with the Brian Silva quote.  I mean, if you want to you can say that every golf hole is really the same -- tee at one end, green at another, junk in between -- but that is just as pointless as finding potatoes which look like celebrities.  There is no intent there.  Moreover, it dismisses the possibility that the architect is thinking from a different perspective, so a hole may look like the Road hole in plan, but not feel remotely like it on the ground.

Still, I think most on this board would be shocked to find out just how little time many architects devote to devising the strategy of an individual golf hole.

[Derek_Duncan]

Still, I think most on this board would be shocked to find out just how little time many architects devote to devising the strategy of an individual golf hole.

Given the low esteem that many if not most contemporary architects are held by this board, I think that's actually the expectation.

I happen to agree with you about the Silva comment. It quickly breaks down into generalities, and I don't know what the purpose of even saying it is. There are only a so many dramatic storylines and Shakespeare wrote about them all. Even if you believe that, so what. We're still moved and entertained by movies, theater and books. At least artists are exploring new forms and ways to express themselves and aren't still locked into writing sonnets and rhyming plays.

[Mike Hamilton]

George F:

Old Macdonald is built on a very good piece of property, but it's not nearly the same sort of property as Cypress Point (or for that matter, Pacific Dunes).  So I did not mind adapting the template approach to it ... especially factoring in that if we hadn't done it that way, Mr. Keiser would have hired someone else besides us to design it!    So, I never really thought about what we would have done had we taken a different approach, and I don't see a point in starting now.

Tom,

I've never played a CBM/SR template, but after reading many reviews and The Evangelist get a sense that they are very distinctive and do not necessarily always flow with the properties on which they have been built.  Old Mac does not feel this way.  I expected some holes to possibly be somewhat contrived, maybe the Sahara and Alps, but after playing in August they seem to fit the property nicely.  Maybe the punchbowl green at 18, although I still liked the hole.

A question I have (the blackboard is really screeching) is did you feel at times moderately handcuffed (for lack of a better word) in building Old Mac in having to mostly stick to the templates, and is it possible to identify which holes you think would have been most different if left to your own devices?

Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

I've never played a CBM/SR template, but after reading many reviews and The Evangelist get a sense that they are very distinctive and do not necessarily always flow with the properties on which they have been built.  Old Mac does not feel this way.  I expected some holes to possibly be somewhat contrived, maybe the Sahara and Alps, but after playing in August they seem to fit the property nicely.  Maybe the punchbowl green at 18, although I still liked the hole.

A question I have (the blackboard is really screeching) is did you feel at times moderately handcuffed (for lack of a better word) in building Old Mac in having to mostly stick to the templates, and is it possible to identify which holes you think would have been most different if left to your own devices?

Mike

Mike,

The routing was done with the templates very firmly in mind, and I am good at putting puzzles together, so it was not too hard to make most of them fit.

The one hole which I had the most doubts about was the Biarritz.  I am not a big fan of the hole (or at least the enforced symmetry of it), and I really doubted that we would find a spot where it would fit well, and in the first two versions of the routing we did not and I was very afraid we would end up trying to bang a square peg into a round hole.  But on the day we decided to move #7 green up into the dunes, we looked down for a hole to connect back into the routing, and there it was!  The front and back if the green were mostly in place, and better yet, the natural formation would absolve us of the need to make it symmetrical.  That was the last signal I needed that building the course that way was the right thing to do, so I never worried much after that about wanting to break the style for my own idea.   

[JC Urbina]

JC

If I could interject a little history on the punchbowl at Yeamans Hall.  This hole has been changed from its original configuration and the goal of the club has been to restore the golf course back to its original layout and were almost done.  The bunker you see in the picture of # 17 shows a bunker front left removed from the green.  Originally that bunker was located directly in front of the green and would have made the hole to appear more like the punch bowl at lets say Chicago or The Creek.  The mounding behind the green has been slightly modified and the bunker front right has been massaged.  So I believe on my next trip we will be restoring the fairway bunkers and will adjust the mowing lines to create a punch bowl effect although not as strong as The National. 

The overall topography of the land has a lot more movement then one would visualize.  The elevation change from the ninth tee up to the landing area is almost 15 feet and we just finished lowering the back tee to natural grade. I am not sure how many people have played the new tee.

The 14th hole has at least 8-12  feet of elevation change from the fairway  just below the green up to the surface.  The 5th hole is almost dead flat but otherwise if I can find my topo map Jim Yonce gave me I think most people would be surprised.  I will  try to give you some figures although I would assume someone could google earth the course and describe in detail some of the elevation changes.

I really like the land and the Ideal holes conceived on this property works well,   I am assuming if Ross or Tillinghast had a chance to do something on this piece of land they wouldn't have disappointed us.

[JC Jones]

Mr. Urbina,

Thanks for sharing that information.  One question, how much work have you done on the fairway and other bunkers around the course.  For some reason, I recall a much different bunker scheme on #5 than what is reflected on google earth.

Here is a picture of the new view on #9 as seen last weekend:



Thanks

[Mac Plumart]

Thanks for sharing JC (Urbina).  Very enlightening!

[Adam Clayman]

Obviously, one of the downsides of Templates, and naming them, are the expectations. I don't know if I would've had that much of a problem with YH's Punchbowl, if I hadn't been expecting more bowl.

Jim U. That's great info and I can see how much more subtle it will be, if I understand you correctly. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

With land that is particularly suited for golf, having many wonderful and natural features, do template courses maximize the natural features of the land in ways that non-template courses cannot?

I don't know about that, but, I think the inverse is true, with land ill-suited for golf, I think templates enhance the course and the playing experience.

Then again, there's something intrinsically valueable with templates.

Templates present sound architectural values put into practice.

If they weren't successful they wouldn't have been replicated and reintroduced over and over again over the last 100 years.

The template holes have their own value, almost irrespective of the land.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Adam,
You set your own self  up for disappointment, it's not a fault of the template or it's name.

JCUrbina,
I am assuming that your remark about Ross and Tillinghast and Ideal holes cuts both ways, i.e., CB/SR and their use of Ideal concepts would not have disappointed us if they were used on certain pieces of land that now contain courses built by Ross or Tillie.

JC,
I think Tom Doak's most recent reply about his finding of the ideal location for the Biarritz at OM offered me some food for thought as pertains to your original question. It sounds like an instance where a piece of property had the naturally occurring features that allowed for that well known concept to be used, and it became a hole that maximized the natural surroundings in the best fashion, i.e. there it lay, identifiable and ready to be used.  I'm not implying that a non-thematic hole couldn't have been created, just that this might be an instance where the maximum was achieved by using the concept.

Just as an aside, I wonder if this hole at OM would have revealed itself if the original had never been conceived so long ago?

[George_Bahto]

Jim K: "Just as an aside, I wonder if this hole at OM would have revealed itself if the original had never been conceived so long ago?"


I think without the expansion of the green to the rear, the creation of the swale and using a forward tee up on the hill, this would have been a great 175-185, "non-Biarritz," par-3 anyhow. (there really was no teeing ground for this green before the lowering of the area for 7-green). The green was there for the taking.

[Tom_Doak]

George,

Indeed, we could have built a fine hole on that spot without turning it into a Biarritz.  But, I never would have thought to fill the back half of the green to build the hole we did if I had never seen the Biarritz ... which would be another way to construe Jim K's question.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()