[TEPaul]

"Not sure on the ph levels. This was the first I had heard of the build up of salts, or other minerals, blocking the turf from getting needed air and healthy minerals. It makes a lot of sense, though."


Travis:

I know so little about chemistry and the chemistry of agronomy I really couldn't offer a constructive opnion on salt and PH. I don't think salt is particularly determinative with PH. I actually looked it up on Google and I still couldn't really understand it. 

Travis, did you ever hear what Richie Valentine's "quick fix" was for his greens at Merion when he basically lost them going into the 1971 US Open?

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,

Was not the oldest adage in the greenkeeper’s book minimum watering, minimum fertilisation and maximum aeration.
Do the greenkeepers on this site think this still holds true or is the above too simplistic and “old school”. Has the hybridisation of grasses done away with keeping the green mean and lean?

The pH level is a measure of the hydrogen ion concentration (low pH = high acidity, high pH = high alkalinity).

Colin

[Craig Sweet]

Don said what I was getting at...the new guy is dealing with the thatch bcause the old guy WASNT ALLOWED TO....what has changed at your course...culturally...internally...that will guarentee the new guy will be allowed to do what needs to be done?

[TEPaul]

"Was not the oldest adage in the greenkeeper’s book minimum watering, minimum fertilisation.


Colin:

You can't be speaking about America in the last 50-60 years, particularly with watering. I was speaking with Mel Lucas of GCGC and the guy who came before him in the 1960s or 1970s was putting 50 MILLION GALLONS a year on that golf course and that probably wasn't that unusual then!

[Anthony_Nysse]

Travis,
 When a course loses all its greens and they blame it on some outside factor like weather I don't buy it...something was applied through the irrigation system and somebody screwed up!!

Kelly-You really feel that way? So, Superintendents have control over mother nature? Take what happened here in Florida for instance. Mother Nature decided to frost out south Florida, causing a lot of bermudagrass to go off color, even a touch of dormant in some circumstances. There is NOTHING that can be don't to make that plant green and growing again until Mother Nature decides to make it warm enough on a continuous basis, thus raising soil temperatures. But yet, 60-70 degrees is still plenty warm to play golf, so golfers are out in carts, courses are mowing and wearing out turfgrass that might not grow for 4-6 weeks. What happens when there are bare spots or wore out turf? A lot pf people experienced this last winter. That's not atributed to Mother Nature? The 2nd coldest winter in 120 years? Slow down, cowboy

[Rory Connaughton]

Travis, not sure if the re-build advice was for a total rebuild or simply a gas, strip and re-seed.  We encountered similar problems at the beginning of the decade. Fundamentally the appropriate cultural practices were not being employed.  For some reason the then green committee did not force the issue.  When the super retired there was a significant thatch layer, virtually no drainage and some of the greens were of the chocolate pudding variety.  Our current super was mentored by one of the great supers of the last 40 years and he wanted to gas and start over right away.  Because the greens had been re-built only a few years before he was hired the club opted to go with aggressive cultural practices.  Ultimately that approach has borne fruit but it took so long and was so painful that we now wished we had given him the go ahead to start from scratch with a gas and re-seed. The short term pain would have been worth it.

For what its worth and maybe this was mentioned above, if not perhaps one of the supers can address this, my understanding is that the gas used for this process will be unavailable shortly due to govmnt. regulation so to the extent there is a notion to gas, the time might be right.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Pocahontas,
  Being the professional who actually grows turfgrass, a lot of Superintendents lost grass this summer (and winter) in south Florida because we expect certain weather conditions. Do you think that Superintendents who struggled this past summer would have been double cutting at .090 and rolling if they knew the weather was going to be so terrible? Walking that fine line CAN result in turf loss when Mother Nature does what she wants.  Do yo think that Superintendents in the south would have been mowing and rolling so much if they knew that they wouldnt be growing grass for 2 months? Turf loss can happen for a lot of differnt reasons...and yes, water quality AND a poor application CAN and sometimes do result in turf loss.
  Many "Mom and pop" golf courses do not have the resources or ability to aerify enough, if at all. Couple that with not being able to veritcut and in a matter of a few years, there is such an organic layer built up that the greens can "bake" like many did this past summer. That wasnt because of irrigation water or a bad application. Some of that is because of Mother Nature. You have to be kidding yourself if you don't think that Mother Nature plays SOME roll in everything that happens on a golf course.

[Jim_Coleman]

   If it's any comfort, my course hired a new super 5 years ago and he undertook the same tactics proposed here.   The results were amazing.  Give the guy a chance; that's why you hired him.

[Bill Hyde]

the club might be better rebuilding the greens.

I would be more concerned about losing the contour of the greens. Granted the top dressing will have an impact but I doubt near the impact made by coring out like is done for a USGA green. The only other option might be what I think is termed the "TDI" drainage method...or you can always hire another superintendent after you tie up the arms of this one then blame everything on him!

Can't rebuild the great. For this exact reasons. Greens hosted the Open in '19 and Am in '28, only a few were touched again by Silva in '85(ish). Keeping the greens is option number one IMO

Travis, not sure why you cannot rebuild, there is plenty of technology available today to map the contours and recreate them. Many wonderful course with historic greens have re-built, I don't think it's sacrilege.

In terms of the gas and regrass approach, that doesn't work if you have a bad soil profile beyond the first few inches (and likely throughout if they're that old.) My club considered the "top four inches" strategy, but it's half-assed and about 60% of the cost of a re-build.

Again, I think your super's approach will help, it's all a matter of how long you are willing to put up with 5/8" tines 2-3x/year, verticutting and heavy topdressing. In Michigan, we have a short enough season, putting up with that was not an option for many at my club.

[Steve Okula]

Travis, did you ever hear what Richie Valentine's "quick fix" was for his greens at Merion when he basically lost them going into the 1971 US Open?

Tom, he spread fresh grass clippings over the bare areas to hide them, a practice that continues today at certain times and places.

[SL_Solow]

Tom;  Good question.  I suspect that had we known that the membership would "lose patience" we would have skipped the intermediate steps and gone straight to gas and regrass.  Two caveats;  1.  It probably took the extreme summer of 2010 to move our members.  2.  Given our soil profile (significant thatch, clay below) we probably would have wanted to add sand to improve over what had been developed via aggrssive top dressing.

[Travis Dewire]

Rebuilding the greens was an option, albeit an expensive one. The aggressive practices employed by our new Supt, really began to show its progress at seasons end. And that was only the first season.

I don't know if it was through laziness, cost cutting, or whatever, but the soil properties were not accurately maintained. I believe there was far too little top dressing, core aeration was simply not done. The greens would get punched in May, and once in maybe Sept. Not sure if verticuts were ever used. I think it was just the drill and fill. I would imagine not doing any cutting of your greens to allow for sand and air, and other nutrients to build, allows the course to be in great shape longer. I.E you dont have greens with holes in them. But I really have no recollection of members complaining about too much aeration of the greens, cutting down on the time the greens are in top shape.

I don't know if a committee lowered his budget in general, and this was an easy fix to bring the top line expense number down. If that was the case, no one is admitting it.

Everyone at the club is behind our new Supt. Everyone feels like the work he has put into the course has really started to move the land in the right direction. We all understand this will take time, but in the end, it will provide great results to our frustrated membership. I am very excited to see how well the course is playing next September. We are really fortunate to have made a great decision in hiring our new Super. Like I said before, he is a blessing, and I truly believe the course will be better than it was in the 70's - when firm and fast was the mantra and if you were above the hole on 18, you're putting off the green.

I knew we made a good decision when he introduced his dogs, Samson & Delilah - any deadheads around?

[Steve Okula]

I knew we made a good decision when he introduced his dogs, Samson & Delilah - any deadheads around?

We are everywhere. Gib Papazian, Jay Flemma,myself,  and others I don't recall right now.

[Travis Dewire]

Travis,

Check this out: http://www.golfcourseindustry.com/gci-1210-green-drainage.aspx

I would have guessed you were in Florida given your comment about salt in the tests. I have not seen this in the northeast, but if all greens are showing these results then it is likely that it is the irrigation water. I believe Don M. first made this point. Any time all 18 greens show the same symptons it generally has to be the irrigation system or possibly an application that is done to all greens. When a course loses all its greens and they blame it on some outside factor like weather I don't buy it...something was applied through the irrigation system and somebody screwed up!!

Kelly,

Their could definitely be problems with our irrigation pond. Here is what Tim has said about it, in the same e-mail:
Irrigation Pond:  The pond on the 7th hole of the Championship course has become contaminated with Milfoil.  We have entered into a contract with a company that has expertise in controlling Milfoil and algae blooms, with the goal of improving the water quality and aesthetics for the 2011 golf season.

The biggest problem, was the build of organic matter. I'm sure the salts are a big factor as well, but the greens were like playing on a sponge. You could hit low draws uphill to an elevated green and stop the ball, when before a high soft fade is still releasing a bit due to the greens firmness.

Our former Supt. had been at the club since '86. Everyone knew him, everyone liked him, and he got along with the committees great. If he needed to increase his sand budget to help firm the course, I am fairly certain they would have figured out a way to do this. He had done great work over the years, but the course had noticeably began to fall. Other clubs were talking about how Brae Burn was in a poor condition, greens, and all. That is embarrassing. Our former Supt was given atleast two seasons to work on rectifying the problem, but the course didn't get any better, only worse. To be honest, maybe he wasn't 100% confident on the steps needed to fix the issues at hand. I don't know. No one knows exactly, its all speculation

I am just glad we have made a good decision on our new Supt. The work he oversaw at Concord CC, turned out to be a great renovation of the course. He was also responsible for the 2006 Mass Am at Concord, which was a flawless tournament on his part

[Travis Dewire]

I knew we made a good decision when he introduced his dogs, Samson & Delilah - any deadheads around?

We are everywhere. Gib Papazian, Jay Flemma,myself,  and others I don't recall right now.

  - wish i could make the smily faces a little more colorful for ya

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks for the additional info Travis.
While I may not be a deadhead (only 1 show), a number of friends from my Boston U days were.
Good luck.
Cheers

[Dan Herrmann]

Travis,
The letter stated, "The major components and time course of this program are as follows.  Core aerification in May using a large tine (i.e., 1/2-5/8 inch diameter) to a depth of 3-4 inches,"

For what it's worth, our guy uses large tine cores to a depth of about a foot.  These are sand-based greens with a gravel base, and it's made an incredible difference.   And he brushes in the soil amendments using a human-powered brush! (I'm a rank amateur at this stuff, so take this with a grain of salt - pun intended!)

Here's one of his articles on aeration
http://www.areagolfe.com/pdf/dryject/dryject7.pdf

Good luck!

[Randy Thompson]

I am gonna stay out of the initial thread, all has been said that needs to be said. I think you will definetly see better conditions and more power to the membership supporting the cultural practices needed and understanding that some times you gotta drop to a three on a scale of one to ten to eventually get a 9 0r 10. As far as the dead, put me down, living on reds, vitamin C and Cocaine.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Travis,
The letter stated, "The major components and time course of this program are as follows.  Core aerification in May using a large tine (i.e., 1/2-5/8 inch diameter) to a depth of 3-4 inches,"

For what it's worth, our guy uses large tine cores to a depth of about a foot.  These are sand-based greens with a gravel base, and it's made an incredible difference.   And he brushes in the soil amendments using a human-powered brush! (I'm a rank amateur at this stuff, so take this with a grain of salt - pun intended!)

Here's one of his articles on aeration
http://www.areagolfe.com/pdf/dryject/dryject7.pdf

Good luck!

Dan,
  The using of the "Drill and Fill" along with the use of the vertidrain will accomplish core aerfication in the 10-12" depth range. It s awell written article with a majority of the suubject about thatch removal and sand injection.

[Travis Dewire]

I am gonna stay out of the initial thread, all has been said that needs to be said. I think you will definetly see better conditions and more power to the membership supporting the cultural practices needed and understanding that some times you gotta drop to a three on a scale of one to ten to eventually get a 9 0r 10. As far as the dead, put me down, living on reds, vitamin C and Cocaine.

Best quote I've ever heard. Love, love, love the vitamin C reference!
I'm too young for the real GD, but was able to catch Further this past Fall, nothing like the real thing though
Ever get into phish? Not many deadheads are into that scene, but it truly is great music

[Kyle Harris]

"Not sure on the ph levels. This was the first I had heard of the build up of salts, or other minerals, blocking the turf from getting needed air and healthy minerals. It makes a lot of sense, though."


Travis:

I know so little about chemistry and the chemistry of agronomy I really couldn't offer a constructive opnion on salt and PH. I don't think salt is particularly determinative with PH. I actually looked it up on Google and I still couldn't really understand it. 

Travis, did you ever hear what Richie Valentine's "quick fix" was for his greens at Merion when he basically lost them going into the 1971 US Open?

Tom:

Salt-affected soils are frequently associated with alkaline soil conditions. That shouldn't be the general case in Massachusetts.

[Randy Thompson]

Travis,
I went to University in Massachusetts, usually I stop there because as far as I am concerned they have some of the best colleges in the country! Harvard, MIT and BU, just to mention a few but I didn`t go to one of those, as most can tell by my spelling. I choose a much more liberal college, that be ZU-MASS which concentrated on more important things like Spring concerts and my senior year the dead played with their famous wall of sound and you could hear the concert all the way to Vermont!Those were the days! I leave you now with a great quote!
 Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting “Holy shit, what a ride!”

~ Mavis Leyrer

[Mike_Young]

I bet the supt that wrote that letter is in the pro shop the last few days saying" hey, what does the dude look like that posted my letter on the internet?"  He might not write another letter

[Travis Dewire]

HAHA, the guys in the shop will tell him were to find me...I truly hope he doesn't mind me sharing with the board here his plan to make our course wonderful again. Which I know he will.

I've been away from the club for the last couple of years, so I never get to discuss this with anybody. As you could imagine there are only a few golfers at the club who a) are interested in this stuff b) care, and c) understand what is going on. It is nice to hear people on here give their support and their 2 cents on our situation.

I'm in no position to comment on the work performed and how it is accepted by the club. All I know is I played the course before him, and after his first season, and the progress has been great, and I'm glad we stole him from Concord CC.

[Travis Dewire]

Travis,
I went to University in Massachusetts, usually I stop there because as far as I am concerned they have some of the best colleges in the country! Harvard, MIT and BU, just to mention a few but I didn`t go to one of those, as most can tell by my spelling. I choose a much more liberal college, that be ZU-MASS which concentrated on more important things like Spring concerts and my senior year the dead played with their famous wall of sound and you could hear the concert all the way to Vermont!Those were the days! I leave you now with a great quote!
 Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting “Holy shit, what a ride!”

~ Mavis Leyrer

Nothing wrong with the Zoo. Massachusetts has a great wealth of top tier universities and colleges. Even in your Western MA enclave, you have Smith, and Mt. Holyoke (two of the 7 sister schools), Amherst, add a few more miles and we hit Williams College. Not to mention how beautiful Western MA is.

That's awesome the dead played for your Spring Concert. What a show that must of been! Any good punch goin around  ?

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