[Jud_T]

Shiv,

1.  The only reason he couldn't chip and putt this year is because he had limited practice time, the majority of which was spent on making swing changes (He said as much after one tourney) at the expense of his short game.  There's no reason to believe that once he gets back to his normal routine that his short game won't be razor sharp again.  You don't suddenly get the yips from going through a divorce.

2.  You'd be a better judge than I, but it seems to me that his new Sean Foley action is a lot more repeatable and likely puts less strain on his back/knees...

[jeffwarne]

.  Proibably more like once every 15 or so.  He can't chip and putt anymore.  And once it's gone, it's gone. 
It's going to be comical to watch him try to putt at ANGC this year with the strokes he's making now.  I don't think he's capable of breaking par putting like that, to be honest.

Once it's gone-it's gone??
So do we have a bet on whether he breaks par at Augusta next year?

[David Federman]

Tiger's record in this year of living dangerously -2010 - Masters - 4th; U.S. Open - 4th; The Open Championship - 23rd; PGA - 28th. I am not sure anyone else even made the cut in all 4. Unless he blows out his knee or suffers some other injury, he will overtake Jack.
                                                             

[Tim Martin]

.  Proibably more like once every 15 or so.  He can't chip and putt anymore.  And once it's gone, it's gone.  
It's going to be comical to watch him try to putt at ANGC this year with the strokes he's making now.  I don't think he's capable of breaking par putting like that, to be honest.

Once it's gone-it's gone??
So do we have a bet on whether he breaks par at Augusta next year?

Shivas-I`ll take the no par bet too if you would be so kind. Your logic sounds more like wishful thinking than anything else. To write this guy off is a fatal mistake. He has an iron will and mad skills. If you don`t like the Augusta bet I say he wins at least 3 PGA tour events next year by the time the FedEx Cup is over.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

You missed my point -- then the Western Open wins by Hagen must count because it was a major then too.

US Ams and British Ams don't count for anything in most people's minds. Although Dan Jenkins believes they can be counted provided you have won a pro major. That keeps Jones in the mix with his 13.

Frankly, pro majors since WWII really matter more to me than some ancient history lesson. We do agree that going back through the time channel can be a tad difficult to do.

[Dan Boerger]

Gone?

Hey I want some of that no par action too!

[Jim Nugent]

Comparing majors at various ages doesn't work so well because Tiger turned pro two years earlier than Jack.  Also, from this point on I think everything favors Jack in the majors race. 

I still think odds are Tiger doesn't win 15 majors. 

[Wade Whitehead]

Tiger now faces two new variables: Competitors who aren't afraid and fans who don't care.

WW

[Jud_T]

WW-

Love him or hate him, I think you'll find that the ratings bump when Tiger's in contention remains similar to what it was pre-incident....

[Sean_A]

Jeff

A lot of folks have been saying Tiger's swing isn't the greatest for keeping his body in tact.  Its just that I heard Fuzzy talk about it a long time ago when Tiger was fresh on tour.  Yes, I think we can say Fuzzy was right.  That doesn't mean Tiger wont win 21, but I was concerned enough to think it could have been a problem for him.  I was also surprised when Tiger got married.  I though he would wait until about this age before he settled down to the dual commitment of family and golf.  While it is no guarantee that marriage and a family will hurt a career, I never thought it would help a young Tiger.

Ciao

Sean,
Fuzzy's right?
14 majors later???
Do you think there's any golfer alive who if told he would only win 14 majors because of the stress his swing caused, that would change?
Tiger could win 2-3 more chipping it at 3/4 speed
By the way, your swing nd mine won't hold up either and eventuall our backs will hurt too

Jeff

Somewhere along the line you lost context of my comments.  Remember, we are talking a swing (changed a few times already due to injury) that folks said couldn't be sustained (and I agreed) for 21 majors.  So yes, Fuzzy was comfortably correct. 

Matt

You don't care about AMs, but I do.  That is why I put Jones one of the top 5 golfers ever and Hilton as top 15.  Its your right to disregard evidence of stellar play, but that doesnt mean I must agree with you.

Ciao 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is hard to believe this few of you guys remember what a serious domestic issue does to your consentration. Even if you think you are ok you are not for a long time. Tiger gets to show his in public unlike the rest of us. I remember a business partner I looked up to telling me not to make any major financial or significant investments calls for 2 years after I got separated.  That is how I make my living.I had an easy divorce and he was still right. It takes so long to get ones head screwed on for prime time.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff

A lot of folks have been saying Tiger's swing isn't the greatest for keeping his body in tact.  Its just that I heard Fuzzy talk about it a long time ago when Tiger was fresh on tour.  Yes, I think we can say Fuzzy was right.  That doesn't mean Tiger wont win 21, but I was concerned enough to think it could have been a problem for him.  I was also surprised when Tiger got married.  I though he would wait until about this age before he settled down to the dual commitment of family and golf.  While it is no guarantee that marriage and a family will hurt a career, I never thought it would help a young Tiger.

Ciao

Sean,
Fuzzy's right?
14 majors later???
Do you think there's any golfer alive who if told he would only win 14 majors because of the stress his swing caused, that would change?
Tiger could win 2-3 more chipping it at 3/4 speed
By the way, your swing nd mine won't hold up either and eventually our backs will hurt too

Jeff

Somewhere along the line you lost context of my comments.  Remember, we are talking a swing (changed a few times already due to injury) that folks said couldn't be sustained (and I agreed) for 21 majors.  So yes, Fuzzy was comfortably correct. 

 

Sean my surprise was that anyone would quote Fuzzy on Tiger
perhaps  ot was before the fried chicken remarks

Fuzzy or anyone else saying Tiger won't get there, won't be right until Tiger's either retired or 60.
You can't claim victory 1/2 way thru the race

[Greg Chambers]

Between the injuries, the baulky putter, the declining short game, and the simple fact that the guys on tour just aren't as intimidated by him, I think the odds are against Tiger catching Jack.

[Jonathan Cummings]

One thing you can expect is to see Tiger much more.  He appears to be planning on participating in the west coast swing - something he has avoided for years.  More play may put him back in form....

[Doug Siebert]

Jeff

A lot of folks have been saying Tiger's swing isn't the greatest for keeping his body in tact.  Its just that I heard Fuzzy talk about it a long time ago when Tiger was fresh on tour.  Yes, I think we can say Fuzzy was right.  That doesn't mean Tiger wont win 21, but I was concerned enough to think it could have been a problem for him.  I was also surprised when Tiger got married.  I though he would wait until about this age before he settled down to the dual commitment of family and golf.  While it is no guarantee that marriage and a family will hurt a career, I never thought it would help a young Tiger.

Ciao

So when will they actually pay off this bet for not beating Jack's record?  Since Jack was in the mix on Sunday at the Masters at age 58, and Watson came even closer to winning the Open at 59, you might get an argument from your bookie trying to collect even in 2035 if he's one short!

Not to mention the fact that between inflation and the present value of that tenner, I hope you got some pretty good odds if you want to end up walking away after a winning bet at a profit

FWIW, I agree with you and Shivas.  Maybe not in as strong of language as him, but he's not the same guy who was invincible on the greens a few years ago.  That's the biggest change in his game, and like Shivas says this started happening before his marriage fell apart, and was still in evidence when he threw away his four shot lead recently.  He can still win majors putting like a mortal, but he'll only win as many as a mortal will from now on, and like others have pointed out, they start getting tougher to win after age 35.  And if he starts on Sunday with the lead, the competitors will no longer fall away like water off the back of a cat...

[Sean_A]

Doug

I think the bet runs until the age when Jack won his last major.  Quite a ways to go yet, but I still havent found the ticket.  This sort of thing is easy to misplace when we are looking at (I think it was 25 years at the time) a long term bet.  Shit, I have trouble remembering the exact details of the bet I placed with Scott not that many months ago, but I do recall Silloth was involved. 

Jeff

Yes, I know tiger has a long way to go, but he has changed his swing already - a few times.  Fuzzy may have been off base with the fried chicken, but he was spot on with the swng issues.

Ciao

[archie_struthers]

 

I think the putting issue is the nexus to his success.  It's clear that at some point in time it stops.  It did for Arnie, Watson and many others . Jack seemed to lose this edge in his  late 30's and found it again one magical day at 46. 

It speaks loudly to me that young golfers no longer think Tiger is the guy, could it be that his competitors think the same way!

[Martin Toal]

Tiger had an intimidation factor which has now been severely reduced, both by the lurid coverage of the scandal but also by several, dare I say it, capitulations while in contention or leading, most recently to Gmac.

Many modern pros have golf psychologists, and I bet that they have created an image for their clients of Elin chasing him out of the house in his underwear while she is waving a 9 iron at him. The golfers can call that image up when they feel awed by him.

If I was a betting man, I would wager on TW winning another major or 2, Masters and the real Open being favourites but falling short of Jack's total overall.

[Jud_T]

Here's the 2009 results for a guy who supposedly was already losing it, on a rebuilt knee with that horrible Haney swing.  5 tour wins and the Aussie Masters.

http://web.tigerwoods.com/onTour/scheduleAndResults?year=2009

When you look up "reading too much into it" in the dictionary there's a picture of a bunch of you guys....

[jeffwarne]

Doug

I think the bet runs until the age when Jack won his last major.  Quite a ways to go yet, but I still havent found the ticket.  This sort of thing is easy to misplace when we are looking at (I think it was 25 years at the time) a long term bet.  Shit, I have trouble remembering the exact details of the bet I placed with Scott not that many months ago, but I do recall Silloth was involved. 

Jeff

Yes, I know tiger has a long way to go, but he has changed his swing already - a few times.  Fuzzy may have been off base with the fried chicken, but he was spot on with the swng issues.

Ciao

Yaeh,
Just like Jack and the flying right elbow would never hold up.
I can't believe ou give someone credibility for knocking young Tiger's swing after he won 14 majors.
If you ask me, it's the wear and tear from his ridiculous workout schedule (not like he hits it any further than he did when he weighed 25 less pounds)
If he'd won 18 by age 28 would Fuzzy still be right?
Jack and Arnold picked him to win 10 Masters (but who knew they were going to turn it into a US Open site)

[Martin Toal]

Here's the 2009 results for a guy who supposedly was already losing it, on a rebuilt knee with that horrible Haney swing.  5 tour wins and the Aussie Masters.

http://web.tigerwoods.com/onTour/scheduleAndResults?year=2009

Jud

But the thread is about major wins, and there are none in that list, nor on the same list for 2010, so that is 8 more chances to reach Jack's total gone.

[George Pazin]

Either Butch or Haney said the best way to get Tiger to do something is to tell him he can't do it...

I'm amazed at the number of posters who draw parallels between Tiger and other golfers. If there is one thing experience should tell you, it's that golf is an incredibly unique and personal sport. There's simply no one in the past to compare to Tiger - Jack's the only one that's close to similar, and comparing two such unique talents from such different competitive backgrounds is bordering on meaningless.

I'd guess the same folks who think his aura is gone are the same ones who thought it was gone 5 years ago. Is there a better chance it's gone now? Sure, more for the injury than anything else, imho. But Tiger is still Tiger. If Veej and his balky putters can win majors in his 40s, Tiger can do it in is 50s.

Sorry, folks, the record is toast.

 

[Jud_T]

But the thread is about major wins, and there are none in that list, nor on the same list for 2010, so that is 8 more chances to reach Jack's total gone.

Oh yeah, Yang pulled 2 rediculous shots out of his shorts to beat Tiger at the PGA.  Yes he missed 8 chances.  Lets see, he's won 14 majors out of roughly 55 chances.  He's got 64 more majors between now and the age of 50 and you honestly don't think he can win 5 more? He's won better than 1 out of 4 majors he's ever played in as a pro and now suddenly he's going to plunge to less than 1 in 12?  Does he look like David Duval, Johnny Miller or Ian Baker Finch to you?

[Dan Boerger]

Here's how I see it.

Tiger's the best and most consistent professional golfer I've ever seen. If he never lifted another club and quit at age 35 I would still have this opinion.

Jack's the most accomplished professional golfer - and I'll use the benchmark everyone seems to, that of the most professional majors. When and if Tiger surpasses that goal, I don't suppose a lot of opinions will change, including mine.

What I find most interesting is how so many seem to think Tiger's not doing things correctly -- be it his swing, his chosen instructors, his schedule, etc. Don't his results speak directly to this?

[Jon Wiggett]

This the second time that Tiger has had a major drought. From the US Open in 2002 he didn't win anothe major till the Masters in 2005. If he wins the 2011 Masters this would be the same.

Jon

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