[Sean_A]

Sean,

Point well taken.  I would play Dornoch or Brora over Tain any day.  However, I think it is tough to dismiss Tain as "boring" when it has several neat holes.  It's worth playing if you are in the region, even if you only play it once.

JNC

Okay, how bout Tain is uneven in its quality to the point that several holes really detract from the overall experience.  I am thinking of sequences or close run holes such as 5, 7, 9, 10 and 12-15.  There is not all that much happening on these holes for so much yardage to be chewed up.  

Carl

Yes, Muirfield was taken off the list once it went north of £150 for a game.  I think next year its £190 for a game - stupid money. 

Ciao

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

Of the ones I've played:

Shiskine may be hard to get to, but in all candor, that was part of its appeal to me. It's not like Wick or Durness -- at the ends of the earth -- but a pretty easy jaunt from the Ayrshire coast. I think it has more than a few solid holes -- in fact, to me its appeal is the variety of quirkiness one finds there.

Crail Balcomie's terrific set of front-nine seaside holes, and the oddness of the cramped finish, to me make it a fun round; I was struck in playing a round at the Eden with a couple of St. Andrews locals that they had never ventured there. Hardly remote, and of all the courses I played in Scotland, it played the fastest and firmest, and a fresh breeze is more than likely for a round there. I really enjoyed it, and think the good stuff more than compensates for a bit of the blandness you identify.

Stonehaven is about as much fun as you can have on a golf course, if one just leaves one's usual sensibilities about how the game is played behind. Even the back-nine meadow "breather" away from the cliffs has its own reward, a bit of warm milk in between the shots of single malt the course offers up in many doses. I have not been afraid very often on a golf course, but another few steps in the wrong direction off the 2nd tee and, well, it's a long way down. And the clubhouse is terrific -- warm, inviting, hardly modern, a bit creaky and worn around the edges.

[Jud_T]

Sean,

I also disagree about Carnoustie.  It's a fantastic course, and this coming from a guy who usually steers clear of the stern championship layouts.  Furthermore, I think they have an overseas membership which is quite reasonable...

[jeffwarne]

Sean:

Of the ones I've played:

Shiskine may be hard to get to, but in all candor, that was part of its appeal to me. It's not like Wick or Durness -- at the ends of the earth -- but a pretty easy jaunt from the Ayrshire coast. I think it has more than a few solid holes -- in fact, to me its appeal is the variety of quirkiness one finds there.

Crail Balcomie's terrific set of front-nine seaside holes, and the oddness of the cramped finish, to me make it a fun round; I was struck in playing a round at the Eden with a couple of St. Andrews locals that they had never ventured there. Hardly remote, and of all the courses I played in Scotland, it played the fastest and firmest, and a fresh breeze is more than likely for a round there. I really enjoyed it, and think the good stuff more than compensates for a bit of the blandness you identify.

Stonehaven is about as much fun as you can have on a golf course, if one just leaves one's usual sensibilities about how the game is played behind. Even the back-nine meadow "breather" away from the cliffs has its own reward, a bit of warm milk in between the shots of single malt the course offers up in many doses. I have not been afraid very often on a golf course, but another few steps in the wrong direction off the 2nd tee and, well, it's a long way down. And the clubhouse is terrific -- warm, inviting, hardly modern, a bit creaky and worn around the edges.

So Phil and others,
How many of the courses you've defended have you played a second time?
Sean's not bashing anywhere persay, there just are so many good/great courses in Scotland that there are plenty of options for one and done

[JNC Lyon]

Mark and Niall,

That's a pretty great value for Carnoustie.  Maybe I have been turned off by the labels of "Carnasty" and the unbelievably difficult conditions in the 1999 Open.  Of course, I am sure this reputation is way overplayed and not completely representative of the golf course.

Like you said, the posters who rip Carnoustie are pretty knowledgeable fellows, but the reaction here is enough to make me reconsider dismissing the course, especially with the value.  Like Jud says above, I usually steer clear of stern championship layouts, but the takes on Carnoustie make me want to see the course more than I did before.

Niall, I am not sure how you gathered that I place extra emphasis on courses that are "spectacular" and have "pretty scenery."  I like beautiful and romantic surroundings for a golf course just as much as the next guy, but I also have an appreciation for great architecture and subtlety.  Sure, Dornoch is spectacular, no doubt, but Tain and Brora, though containing some good views, are far from "spectacular" in the traditional sense.  I steer clear of courses like Troon and Carnoustie because these types of courses are usually over-hyped for scenery and hosting major championships.  I did not steer clear of them because I am seeking style over substance.  I think if you read most of posts on here, I am a major defender of subtle and quirky courses over big and majestic ones.

I always try to be an independent thinker and form opinions for myself.  However, the only way to do that is to learn from and trust the opinions of the experts around you.  Copy the great masters, then do your own thing.

[Carl Johnson]

. . . I steer clear of courses like Troon and Carnoustie because these types of courses are usually over-hyped for scenery and hosting major championships. . . .

In my view, no pun intended, there is no need to worry about Carnoustie being over-hyped for scenery, because there isn't any.  Troon is a little better, but I would not put it in the "scenic" category either (compare Dornoch, Turnberry, Cruden Bay and The Glen, for example, which I would).  To dump further on Carnoustie, the day we played the designated tees were the back tees, about 6,900 yds. (not the tees they use for the Open, but still too long for us), and the course was swarming with "marshalls" who were pushing the pace of play and made us feel very uncomfortable -- and we are relatively fast players.  I think we paid 90 to 95 pounds in 2002.

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

Of the ones I've played:

Shiskine may be hard to get to, but in all candor, that was part of its appeal to me. It's not like Wick or Durness -- at the ends of the earth -- but a pretty easy jaunt from the Ayrshire coast. I think it has more than a few solid holes -- in fact, to me its appeal is the variety of quirkiness one finds there.

Crail Balcomie's terrific set of front-nine seaside holes, and the oddness of the cramped finish, to me make it a fun round; I was struck in playing a round at the Eden with a couple of St. Andrews locals that they had never ventured there. Hardly remote, and of all the courses I played in Scotland, it played the fastest and firmest, and a fresh breeze is more than likely for a round there. I really enjoyed it, and think the good stuff more than compensates for a bit of the blandness you identify.

Stonehaven is about as much fun as you can have on a golf course, if one just leaves one's usual sensibilities about how the game is played behind. Even the back-nine meadow "breather" away from the cliffs has its own reward, a bit of warm milk in between the shots of single malt the course offers up in many doses. I have not been afraid very often on a golf course, but another few steps in the wrong direction off the 2nd tee and, well, it's a long way down. And the clubhouse is terrific -- warm, inviting, hardly modern, a bit creaky and worn around the edges.

So Phil and others,
How many of the courses you've defended have you played a second time?
Sean's not bashing anywhere persay, there just are so many good/great courses in Scotland that there are plenty of options for one and done

Jeff:

Sean's perspective -- and I'd argue much of one's response will be dictated by that -- is different than mine (his is: England or Scotland?). If I took another trip to Scotland and based my trip in St. Andrews, I'd return to Crail in a heartbeat. But if I based the trip in Dornoch, no -- I wouldn't. I could see myself making an entire trip based on golf on Arran, the Kintyre Peninsula and a few of the lesser Ayrshire courses, so that would include Shiskine as well. A Fraserburgh-based trip would include a side trip down to Stonehaven.

All are unlikely in the coming years, though, but the question is a good one. I'd just answer in the affirmative for each.

Machrihanish, by the way, has two fine par 3s toward the end. Only 17 and 18 are a bit of a letdown, but 15 and 16 are fine par 3s.

[Scott Warren]

I think one and done for someone making an international trip is a very different thing than one and done for a local.

The Struie at Dornoch is probably the only course I'd class as "one and done" for me. I am really glad that I played it, but next time I get to Dornoch I'd probably play all my rounds on the big course and the others in the vicinity.

I can't agree with anyone nominating Crail. Any time I am in Fife I will make sure I play the Balcomie.

[Sean_A]

Sean:

Of the ones I've played:

Shiskine may be hard to get to, but in all candor, that was part of its appeal to me. It's not like Wick or Durness -- at the ends of the earth -- but a pretty easy jaunt from the Ayrshire coast. I think it has more than a few solid holes -- in fact, to me its appeal is the variety of quirkiness one finds there.

Crail Balcomie's terrific set of front-nine seaside holes, and the oddness of the cramped finish, to me make it a fun round; I was struck in playing a round at the Eden with a couple of St. Andrews locals that they had never ventured there. Hardly remote, and of all the courses I played in Scotland, it played the fastest and firmest, and a fresh breeze is more than likely for a round there. I really enjoyed it, and think the good stuff more than compensates for a bit of the blandness you identify.

Stonehaven is about as much fun as you can have on a golf course, if one just leaves one's usual sensibilities about how the game is played behind. Even the back-nine meadow "breather" away from the cliffs has its own reward, a bit of warm milk in between the shots of single malt the course offers up in many doses. I have not been afraid very often on a golf course, but another few steps in the wrong direction off the 2nd tee and, well, it's a long way down. And the clubhouse is terrific -- warm, inviting, hardly modern, a bit creaky and worn around the edges.

So Phil and others,
How many of the courses you've defended have you played a second time?
Sean's not bashing anywhere persay, there just are so many good/great courses in Scotland that there are plenty of options for one and done

Jeff:

Sean's perspective -- and I'd argue much of one's response will be dictated by that -- is different than mine (his is: England or Scotland?). If I took another trip to Scotland and based my trip in St. Andrews, I'd return to Crail in a heartbeat. But if I based the trip in Dornoch, no -- I wouldn't. I could see myself making an entire trip based on golf on Arran, the Kintyre Peninsula and a few of the lesser Ayrshire courses, so that would include Shiskine as well. A Fraserburgh-based trip would include a side trip down to Stonehaven.

All are unlikely in the coming years, though, but the question is a good one. I'd just answer in the affirmative for each.

Machrihanish, by the way, has two fine par 3s toward the end. Only 17 and 18 are a bit of a letdown, but 15 and 16 are fine par 3s.

Phil

No, my perspective isnt England or Scotland.  My perspective was trying to identify the courses in Scotland which one wouldn't revisit under normal circumstances after one play.  I was quite struck by how many I wouldn't really look to replay.  That is probably as much about how good the top courses really are as much as how mediocre or over-priced some are. 

Ciao

[Brian Freeman]

I was very disappointed in the New Course at St Andrews.  Other than a couple of holes out near the water, all the holes seemed to blend together, nothing too memorable.  The course was very lacking in the strategic charm and variety of the other courses I have played there.  Many folks rate the Jubilee and New equally, but I thought it was no contest between the two.

[Mark Alexander]

Excellent and interesting topic. Here are a few links to see what all the fuss is about, or otherwise.

http://www.markalexanderphotography.co.uk/Leven2/
http://www.markalexanderphotography.co.uk/LevenLinks/
http://www.markalexanderphotography.co.uk/Crail/
http://www.markalexanderphotography.co.uk/Southerness/
http://www.markalexanderphotography.co.uk/Ladybank/
http://www.markalexanderphotography.co.uk/Crail-Craighead/

[Tony_Muldoon]

I was very disappointed in the New Course at St Andrews.  Other than a couple of holes out near the water, all the holes seemed to blend together, nothing too memorable.  The course was very lacking in the strategic charm and variety of the other courses I have played there.  Many folks rate the Jubilee and New equally, but I thought it was no contest between the two.

Those very issue's are discussed here.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42823.0.html 

Argualbly they are why The New deserves more than one visit.   I'm eager to see it again.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

You are a freak forever conflicted by your architectural sensibilities - tee hee.  Now stick to Scotland.   

Sean,

Maybe the Carnoustie Burnside course would suit your game better than the mighty Championship  there are some cracking short holes. 9 plays to a raised green. Buddon surprised me a bit - I thought it would be poor but there are a few interesting holes, the last I heard about it that it was to be refurbished/redesigned by Steve Marnoch. The army range site screams huge potential for a superb 4th course! Monifieth, Panmure and Montrose are good courses but nowhere thnear the standard of Carnoustie Championship.

I can't believe you are not going on Murifield due to the green fee - I would jump at the opportunity of playing it. Its probably Harry S Colt's finest course. Pebble is 500 dollars, Harbour Town cost me 195 dollars - I would rather play Muirfield anytime.

I have played plenty courses on the East coast of Scotland. The 1st was Hazlehead in Aberdeen a cracking Mackenzie course - I paid 3 pounds to play on it in 1990!

Mark P,

I think there are 2 different green fees in Spring on the Championship course with or without mats - it was £65 with mats and double that without which i think was fair to pay for any damages and extra maintenance

I love playing Elie and I can't wait to get back there - its the only course I have hit a 5 iron out of a pot bunker!

Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

Ben

You are a freak forever conflicted by your architectural sensibilities - tee hee.  Now stick to Scotland.   

Sean,

Maybe the Carnoustie Burnside course would suit your game better than the mighty Championship  there are some cracking short holes. 9 plays to a raised green. Buddon surprised me a bit - I thought it would be poor but there are a few interesting holes, the last I heard about it that it was to be refurbished/redesigned by Steve Marnoch. The army range site screams huge potential for a superb 4th course! Monifieth, Panmure and Montrose are good courses but nowhere thnear the standard of Carnoustie Championship.

I can't believe you are not going on Murifield due to the green fee - I would jump at the opportunity of playing it. Its probably Harry S Colt's finest course. Pebble is 500 dollars, Harbour Town cost me 195 dollars - I would rather play Muirfield anytime.

I have played plenty courses on the East coast of Scotland. The 1st was Hazlehead in Aberdeen a cracking Mackenzie course - I paid 3 pounds to play on it in 1990!

Mark P,

I think there are 2 different green fees in Spring on the Championship course with or without mats - it was £65 with mats and double that without which i think was fair to pay for any damages and extra maintenance

I love playing Elie and I can't wait to get back there - its the only course I have hit a 5 iron out of a pot bunker!

Cheers
Ben

Ben

Now you are talking.  Yes, I would rather play the Burnside than the bigun'.  I don't have any illusions about being a championship calibre player.  I am quite happy with a wee tootle about and a cigar.  Plus, I get the added bonus of getting to eat that night - how special. 

Yep, I like Muirfield, but I'll be damned if I will hand over £190 for a game when I have already seen the course a few times.  Life is too long to throw money away I may need whan I am 80. 


Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

£190 for a game, Sean?  Let's be fair, at least.  £190 is the day rate (though there may not be a single round rate, I don't know).  I'm playing there next March with some mates (as visitors, not with my father in law) and we'll be paying £75 for a single round.  You  love winter golf, as your tour shows.  The very best winter golf is on links.  Why wouldn't you play Muirfield at £75 or Carnoustie at £65.

Ben, nothing on the website said anything about different rates or mats.  The £65 is the only winter rate shown.  The summer rate is £135 so I can't see how they would ask £130 in winter.  As far as I can tell, £65 is the rate to play off the fairways.  Perhaps you were there in a pre-Open year when they were being more careful of the fairways?

[Sean_A]

£190 for a game, Sean?  Let's be fair, at least.  £190 is the day rate (though there may not be a single round rate, I don't know).  I'm playing there next March with some mates (as visitors, not with my father in law) and we'll be paying £75 for a single round.  You  love winter golf, as your tour shows.  The very best winter golf is on links.  Why wouldn't you play Muirfield at £75 or Carnoustie at £65.

Ben, nothing on the website said anything about different rates or mats.  The £65 is the only winter rate shown.  The summer rate is £135 so I can't see how they would ask £130 in winter.  As far as I can tell, £65 is the rate to play off the fairways.  Perhaps you were there in a pre-Open year when they were being more careful of the fairways?

Canary

http://www.muirfield.org.uk/page/Visitors.aspx

I always use top weekday price for comparison sake.  

You must be under the impression that I play loads of away golf.  Generally speaking I only do one 3-4 day trip away and a small handful of 1 (maybe 2) nighters each year (notice how often I skip Buda if the weekends arent utilized).  Muirfield is really a bridge too far for my time/cash budget and its still fairly expensive in the winter.  But who knows?  I have gone up to Turnberry on a good winter deal and next October we are headed to St Andrews on the winter deal (no mats yippity yip), but I am not sure which courses we are playing other than The Old - so it does happen now and again.  

I forgot one course in my one and done list - how bout Turnberrys Kintyre? 

Ciao  

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

From reply #6:

"I would like to do a tour of some of the smaller Scottish courses, but they are so spread out as to necessitate a long tour or several shorter ones that I am more likely to stick south of the border for that kind of kick.  Maybe one day."

Your argument seems to be that some courses in Scotland that require a bit of travel aren't worth it, because they are not that good, or perhaps over-rated, and you think you're better off in England. That's a worthy argument, but I'd still suggest your perspective is different than an American coming over to the British Isles.

If the latter, and you're planning a trip of any decent length (more than a day or two) and basing it at St. Andrews, I think you'd miss something if you skipped Crail. Same for an Aberdeen-based trip skipping over Stonehaven -- sure you can play better courses in the area, but few as fun. Shiskine I can see skipping -- not as much because of the course, but the logistics. Still, it's worth a one-day stopover in basing a trip on the Ayrshire coast.

[Sean_A]

Phil

For sure my perspective is a bit different from those who cross an ocean, but one could say the ocean crossers are even less likely to stray from the big guns than I am.  This is often the case until at least the second visit.  Just the same, I don't head up to Scotland very often these days (and I don't expect to in the future) so my first goal is to play the courses which give me the best bang for the buck and those which are just too darn good to pass up.  It isn't a question of being better off in England, if I am going to Scotland thats that.  Its more a question of playing the courses which appeal the most to me while in Scotland as well the odd "whats behind door #3?" type courses I am intrigued by but haven't seen.  Without a doubt Machrie and Askernish are two courses which are high on the door list.  I also want to play Elie again as all I can recall is feeling good about the course, but in essence I haven't played it because there are so few specific memories. 

Aren't there some one and done Scottish courses for you?

Ciao   

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

I could probably think of a few. Given a choice, say, between Crail Balcomie and the Eden, I'd head to Crail 9 out of 10 times. The Eden was great fun, esp. the greens, but Crail was much more interesting as an overall experience of links golf.

Given unlimited resources, I think I'd give Muirfield a try, but more for the history and experience (lunch, foursomes, all that) than the course itself. I can easily think of at least 100 Scottish courses I'd play before Carnoustie -- I walked it (not played) extensively prior to the '99 Open there, and it just doesn't look to be enjoyable (perhaps more of a statement on my game than my appreciation of interesting architecture -- the former is lousy and ill-suited for Carnoustie, but the course save for a few holes didn't look all that interesting -- hard as heck, yes, but not of interest to my tastes). Turnberry might be of interest, but not Royal Troon, from what I've seen (I've heard much better things about nearby Western Gailes, and would probably opt for Prestwick as well). I'm not sure I'd even do Nairn if taking on a Dornoch-based trip -- I'd probably head over to Strathpeffer Spa sooner than Nairn, or go past Nairn for Lossiemouth.

[Niall C]

One And Done Courses (unless there are special circumstances)?  We hear so much about the awesome depth of Scottish golf, but is some of this depth just medicore golf in a good location?  Of golf that is so expensive that all we want to afford is one look?  Or not bad courses, but indeed in an area of riches.  Though I would certainly recommend folks see some of these courses if nearby, none really did it for me. 

Tain - boring
The Glen - if this was just the lower part then the course would be much better
Troon - too expensive, treated poorly
Shiskine - beautiful spot with a few good holes, but not worth the journey unless you plan to be on Arran
Carnoustie - too tough and expensive
Gullane 2 & 3 - though I could see myself changing my mind on these two, their proximity to other very fine courses seals their doom for now
Murcar - too many blah holes, but I haven't seen the changes
Glasgow Gailes - boring
Leven - not bad, but too many other courses nearby I would rather play given how rarely I make it up there
Crail - see above
Golspie - see above
Troon Portland - boring
Stonehaven - beautiful, but lacking a bit in substance

Ciao
 

Sean,

If I ever stopped to write a list of my top 20 Scottish courses, I doubt most of these would make the list and I'm a member at one of these courses.

Troon and Carnoustie would be the two bankers and I'm not just saying that because their on the Open rota. I've been lucky enough to play both of them a number of times over recent years and the more I play them, the more I appreciate them and want to play them again which is usually the sign of a really good course. Luckily I wasn't paying full green fees which means that didn't colour my judgement.

Totally agree about the Portland but then I don't think the club do the course any favours with the set up. Likewise the Kintyre. I would rather have played the old course before Steel (?) worked his magic. I can think of four other courses in Ayrshire right off that I would much rather play than those two, namely Prestwick St Nichs, Belleisle, Troon Darley and Lochgreen. Thats before you throw in Western and Bogside.

I think the problem with scottish golf is that sometimes the Open rota courses grab all the attention, and that quite a lot of really good courses fly under the radar, even on a site like this.

Niall

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