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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2010, 01:47:36 PM »
deleted. Not worth the trouble...

Have a nice weekend, folks.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2010, 01:50:05 PM »
Peter;  In a debate both sides are presented in their best possible light and the other side has an opportunity to dispute either the factual or logical support.  I suggest that Rand does little to present the other side except in a form that trivializes any point of view inconsistent with her own.  As such it is less a debate than a manifesto thinly disguised as a novel.  How one feels about the book is largely dependent on whether one "buys" the message.  Anyone who thinks it has literary value has ingested a lot of kool aid.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 05:53:37 PM by SL_Solow »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2010, 02:03:33 PM »
Did Orwell present the other side in Animal Farm or 1984?

I suppose those lack literary value as well....
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2010, 02:29:52 PM »
George;   Orwell was a  better writer and far too cynical to adopt a unifying principle that served as a solution to societal ills like Rand.  Despite his socialist views, both Animal Farm and 1984 are critiques of totalitarian regimes on either side of the spectrum.  Animal Farm is by its own terms an allegory.  Incidentally, there are those of us who look at the political spectrum as less of a straight line moving left to right (or right to left if you prefer) and see it as more circular with those at the extremes being closer to each other than to the larger majority who are closer to the middle.  Once again a foray into the off topic originall disguised as GCA related.  Oh well, soon we'll have as many Fountainhead threads as Merion threads but these are more civil.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2010, 02:36:02 PM »

Did Orwell present the other side in Animal Farm or 1984?

I suppose those lack literary value as well....


First,to establish my AR bona fides,I have first editions of The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and own copies of everything she's ever written.I've read it all multiple times.In general,I'm a big fan.In the specific,I concede that Objectivism has some serious issues.

I agree-- with a large "but".I don't think Ayn Rand really considered herself a novelist nor,IMO,was she concerned about her place in the literary world.

She was writing manifestos of a sort.But,I don't think she ever made any pretense otherwise,and I doubt if she cared what people thought.




John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2010, 02:40:21 PM »
Long before Sarah Palin didn't read I turned from literature for that very reason.  The minute you pick up a book you order the kool aid of someone with nothing better to do than write.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2010, 02:42:21 PM »
  Funny how a book with apparently bad character development can leave such strong impressions of their character for discussion decades after being originally published.  They've outlasted her critics.   Again, the old adage rears up again: Time is the true judge.


" . . .   People turned to look at Howard Roark as he passed. Some remained staring after him with sudden resentment. They could give no reason for it: it was an instinct his presence awakened in most people. Howard Roark saw no one. For him, the streets were empty. He could have walked there naked without concern.    . . .  "  

 Sourced from . . .

 http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_ayn_rand_books_fountainhead


  For me, Roark is an image of certainty.  I admire that trait, but I don't make a hero out of him for it.  Some people retreat into certainty and that is a sad way to go.
  
  Katz, from Bill Bryson's A Walk In the Woods is my hero.  And Malachi Constant  (Unk).
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2010, 02:45:55 PM »
Oh well, soon we'll have as many Fountainhead threads as Merion threads but these are more civil.

Give me time... :)

I agree Orwell is a better writer, but that does not mean Ayn's work lacks literary value, or that anyone who sees said value has drank lots of kool-aid.

There are all sorts of genres within literature. One needn't use pigs to write allegories, any more than one must use English royalty to write plays that speak of the human condition. Ayn's work conveys her message in a clear and entertaining manner and has influenced literally millions of readers. That may not fit an English profs definition of literature, but it certainly fits mine.

Glug, glug, I guess.

----

JME -

Can't say I disagree with any of your post. I wonder if many of the great writers were concerned about their place in the literary world.

Nice post, Norb.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2010, 02:58:36 PM »
George,not one great author(or any other artist) ever cared about his/her place in the literary(or any other) world--until after someone made them "great".

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2010, 02:59:56 PM »
George,not one great author(or any other artist) ever cared about his/her place in the literary(or any other) world--until after someone made them "great".

Tom Doak cared or his Mother would have kicked his ass all the way into a professorship.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2010, 03:23:30 PM »
This is "so Golf Club Atlas", 2010. Funny. I returned to literary critics circle  :D
jeffmingay.com

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2010, 03:40:32 PM »
George;  Don't mistake the intent of my post.  A novel does not have to be a literary masterpiece in order to have impact.  I'll give you an example from the left since my comments are not grounded in any political philosophy; at least this time.  The Jungle, written by one of the leaders in the socialist movement in the USA during the first half of the 20th century, Upton Sinclair, is an abysmal piece of writing.  But because Sinclair had done his "muckraking" homework, the expose of the conditions in the meatpacking industry made it popular and influential while its greater purpose, to attack capitalism, was largely ignored.  Sinclair proved that his literary ineptitude was not a fluke with a series of moderately popular spy novels, the Lanny Budd series, where he continued to espouse socialism and a belief in paranormal phenomena with writing that,with luck, might have garnered a "C" for a sophomore in high school.

Of course the difference is that Sinclair's influence arose out of factual revelations which transcended his stylistic failings.  My problem with Rand, putting aside any philosophical differences, is that she presents very little that is new, either factually or philosophically, so that there is little reason to overlook what I consider to be a writing style that is less than pedestrian.  If I want to read a novel that seeks to espouse a unified theory for viewing one's life and work, I would hope that it presents something new or at least a unique approach to these timeless questions.  If not, it should stand on its own as a literary work.  For me, Rand's books fail in creating that interest just as they failed the first time I read them over 40 years ago.  In a different forum, we could discuss the underlying philosophy which I believe oversimplifies problems in the real world.  It is easy to knock down straw men of one's own creation but at least, if that is one's intention, one should do so with style.





 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 04:16:20 PM by SL_Solow »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2010, 03:57:14 PM »
deleted again.

This time I'm done. :) Have a nice weekend.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Peter Pallotta

Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2010, 04:28:59 PM »
George - this is very unlike you, two self-deleted posts in one thread. (How very Roarkian of you! :))

It's good to have honest and civil differences of opinion -- though I have to admit I am very glad that so formidable and respected an intellect and writer as SL is on my side  ;D

Good weekend to you too.

Peter

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2010, 05:12:59 PM »
I'm objective enough to know when I've lost control of my own emotions. :) Time for a beer!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2010, 05:44:35 PM »
George...I just got back to this thread after work.  C'mon, what is with the delted posts?  I would have loved to read them.

Also, to Derek's question, "Who hired him to build a skyscraper, and then gave him a blank check to design it and fill it in any way he wished? And then blow it up when things didn't go his way? That's pretty good work if you can get it. "

Sounds like Rees Jones.   :-*
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jason McNamara

Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2010, 11:12:57 PM »
The thing that must unfortunately be considered with so many of FLW's designs is that they have serious flaws.  Fallingwater is gorgeous, but was almost Falling Into The Water before being stabilized at huge expense.  And the leaks are de rigueur for his flat roofs. 

Ross Waldorf

Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2010, 02:50:52 AM »
I usually avoid these kinds of threads because I don't want to get into a heated disagreement. Kudos for keeping the conversation so nicely civil. But I had to add a quick anecdote with regard to Frank Lloyd Wright: I was at the Guggenheim one afternoon -- a building which I always consider to be a beautiful piece of environmental sculpture and an absolutely awful art museum. Anyway, I was in need of a bathroom break and eventually found one shoehorned into a corner somewhere. After barely squeezing into the lone stall, the only way you could actually sit down was to spread your legs apart to allow room for a structural column that was right in front of the toilet. So I negotiated that obstacle and looked up at the column, which was about a foot from my face, and in pencil someone had scrawled, "Thanks, Frank."

Thought that was hilarious.
R

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2010, 03:21:14 AM »
Howard Roark, The Tom Doak of fictional building architects. ;D


Wow, did Tom Doak blow up a course after another architect ruined his work by putting flowerbeds and waterfalls on it?  I haven't been reading this site regularly so I must have missed that thread, can you post a link? ;D
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2010, 09:51:24 AM »
I usually avoid these kinds of threads because I don't want to get into a heated disagreement. Kudos for keeping the conversation so nicely civil. But I had to add a quick anecdote with regard to Frank Lloyd Wright: I was at the Guggenheim one afternoon -- a building which I always consider to be a beautiful piece of environmental sculpture and an absolutely awful art museum. Anyway, I was in need of a bathroom break and eventually found one shoehorned into a corner somewhere. After barely squeezing into the lone stall, the only way you could actually sit down was to spread your legs apart to allow room for a structural column that was right in front of the toilet. So I negotiated that obstacle and looked up at the column, which was about a foot from my face, and in pencil someone had scrawled, "Thanks, Frank."

Thought that was hilarious.
R

That's really funny, Ross. Hilarious  :)
jeffmingay.com

Ian Andrew

Re: Golf Club Atlas Shrugged
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2010, 10:34:57 AM »
I’m a fan of The Fountainhead and still recommend it to design students when I speak to them. I believe the book to be very inspirational for a young designer because it as an allegory about conviction and commitment. I read the book at 19 and took a lot of inspiration from certain ideals in the book.

I have read more than Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead. I don’t believe Ayn Rand is a great writer, but I do think she’s an “interesting thinker” and I evaluate each opinion expressed and whether I agree or disagree with the principle she has taken on. I think she wrote novels to make her essays “and teachings” reach a wider audience.

I agree with the assertion that her characters are mostly stereotypical and the writing is didactic, but I still think she makes the reader assess their beliefs and that I’ve always found stimulating. I must admit that I read the book recently and found some of the ideas to idealist to suspend belief, but that sometimes that is the “weakness’ of age and experience.

By the way this thread should be called Golf Club Atlas Shrugged.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 10:39:35 AM by Ian Andrew »

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Club Atlas Shrugged
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2010, 12:49:13 PM »

By the way this thread should be called Golf Club Atlas Shrugged.  ;D


It takes a very brave man to type this pun.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2010, 01:15:59 PM »
I felt Rand said more with one word, in Atlas Shrugged" than most say with ten. I loved how she was (and still is) misrepresented in her philosophies. Kind of like how this site gets pigeonholed for having a collective belief.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2010, 01:41:59 PM »
When this site was at it's most interesting we had far more writers and fewer readers. As both a Catholic and engineer I have never been exposed to the reading environment I see so many of you hold dear. The one common denominator I see in each of your lives is how as adults you see the books of your youth as misleading.  I understand reading for entertainment, what I don't get is celebrating the reading mentality.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Howard Roark
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2010, 01:50:45 PM »
When this site was at it's most interesting we had far more writers and fewer readers.

And why do you suppose it changed?

The one common denominator I see in each of your lives is how as adults you see the books of your youth as misleading.  I understand reading for entertainment, what I don't get is celebrating the reading mentality.

Bold statements, certainly. Accurate? Doubtful.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04