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jim_lewis

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2010, 09:47:01 PM »
As a committed "the smaller the government, the better" guy, I could offer a long list of endeavors that I would like to see gov't get out of. I'm perfectly happy to start with golf courses and other gov't funded "free" recreation facilities.

BTW, I live in a town that has no "public" library. Our privately funded library works very well and is funded by those who choose to. Before my tax dollars go to bail out the mismanagement of California and New York, I would rather see them sell some of their assets to raise their own money.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Doug Siebert

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2010, 02:47:51 AM »
Perhaps the property tax assessment issue Jim and others have alluded to can be solved by creating a new tax category for golf courses - the privately owned non-profit.  Some people want to build a course to make money, but some people do it because its their dream and don't care if it makes money - they just don't want their dream to drive them into bankruptcy!

If courses could be built and operated as non-profits, and benefit from little or no property tax it would be pretty hard to argue that munis have an advantage.  The taxing authority would have to be able to audit things a bit to insure the meaning of non-profit isn't stretched too badly (i.e., a successful non-profit paying the founder/manager $500,000/yr) but done properly the community would benefit by having any leftover money donated to local charities.

Some would argue against the idea of having land taken out of the local tax base, but 99% of the time the land used for a new course was previously agricultral and thus generating little tax revenue anyway.  Communities are always in a race to the bottom with each other for property tax abatements when trying to attract big employers (to the detriment of all the small business owners who can never get even the smallest break on property taxes) so any community where this has ever been done or seriously proposed would have a hard time arguing that property tax abatement for a non-profit golf course is a bad thing.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Matt_Ward

Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2010, 11:12:50 AM »
Doug:

Let me try to point out what many elected local leaders see when the discussion of golf courses is brought up. Many times the folks who make such local decisions see golf courses as "frills" -- they see them as "extras" -- which need to be maintained in some sort of way. It's often tough enough for many of these jurisdictions to take care of the regular parks they have.

In fact, big time groups like Bureau of Land Mgmt have a tough time trying to take care of the larger parcels of national land they are entrusted to oversee.

I don't see how private groups would simply want to provide a course in which they don't make some sort of profit. The existing groups that are now involved in working with various taxpayer jurisdictions likely would want a very long lease time and in the overwhelming majority of cases would want to get some return on their handling of all the other costs associated with such sites.

On the flip side there are well-run jurisdictions that have handled taxpayer-owned golf courses quite well -- they have indeed been able to pump $$ back into their parks system or even to the general fund. But for every instance of that -- you have a number of jurisdictions in which the golf is underwritten by the infusion of $$ from the general taxpayers contributions. In extremely tight times -- every $$ matters a great deal -- especially when other crucial categories like public safety are taking cuts.

Doug, believe it or not -- when one has vacant land or other such parcels -- the golf dimension ios an important one -- for golfers. There are other unmet needs which are far greater -- assisted living is one of them -- so is having places for the developmentally challenged and the like.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2010, 02:01:06 PM »
Matt,

Right in your back yard, a new muni is about ready to start construction in Hudson County!!!

http://www.nj.com/news/jjournal/jerseycity/index.ssf?/base/news-11/1292052332309910.xml&coll=3
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2010, 06:46:29 PM »
Steve:

I am well familiar with the aforementioned area.

Quick two thoughts ...

you need mega mosquito repellent at the driving range there.

the second thing is that the county has a range of pressing other needs -- the golf side looks bad given the dilemma Hudson County is with other higher priorities.

be interesting to see how it plays out.

Scott Stearns

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2010, 07:18:17 PM »
Govts should get out of the losing-money-at golf business.

there is no reason a city-owned golf course can't make money.  if the city cant run it right, they should rent the course to a mgmt firm and met them run it.  NYC turned big losers into money makers this way.

owners of public courses should get over it.  munis appeal to a specific segment of the golf mkt.  pvt courses should offer more value or get out of the bus.

why shouldnt govts offer golf?  golf is one benefit that can be enjoyed by a broad cross section of the taxpaying public.  why shouldnt they get something from the govt along with all the hand outs?

Matt_Ward

Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2010, 05:55:47 PM »
Scott:

Ask yourself this -- did American Golf Corporation really do such a swell job w NYC muni's ?

No doubt NYC was not doing well prior -- but frankly there are a number of avid golfers I know
in the Big Apple and they say their involvement was anything but good.

The question should be -- at what level of golf should taxpayer-sponsored courses exist? I have no issue with courses that can help introduce the game to the broader groups that don't play or play as much. That would include juniors, women and those at or near retirement on very fixed incomes. The places that taxpayers should be underwriting course development is when you see the big time CCFAD layouts -- unfortunately, there are quite a few localities that believe a US Open can be had for such a big time investment.

archie_struthers

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2010, 06:28:58 PM »
 ??? ::) ???


Scott said


"owners of public golf courses should get over it "


I just don't get it and we've been down this road before.


Why not govenment run and owned restaurants, which would benefit more folks than golf courses.  It would be great to run hard working foodies out of business, and why shouldn't we get good food for less.  The politicians could eat for free , just like they play for free at the muni golf courses in our area .

Isn't that why we built nicer muni's, because our elected officials couldn't stand playing for free at the old style nine hole muni where they would have to hang out with kids and beginners ....

Yeah that's the ticket"

« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 06:46:07 PM by archie_struthers »

Doug Siebert

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2010, 02:02:19 AM »
Archie,

You can use that argument for anything.  In areas where toll roads are common, should the government not build any more public highways, and instead rely on private enterprise?  In that case the taxpayers are paying for a road only some of them will use, but for toll roads only those who use it pay for it, and there's profit to be made.  And why not cut back on police and employ more private security firms, and might as well cut back on public schools to leave more room for private schools?  These arguments are as ridiculous as the scenario where government starts opening restaurants.

Actually I suppose the government does run restaurants, some government buildings and almost all public hospitals have cafeterias, some munis have restaurants in them.  Does McDonalds complain about the cafereria in the VA hospital?

The one muni in my county has a $3 million clubhouse that includes a full bar/restaurant and has a large banquet room.  I own an 8000 sq ft restaurant/sports bar about two miles away, and I don't have a problem with it, even though I know it takes some business that my place would otherwise get, since there are a limited number of places able to handle really large groups.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

archie_struthers

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2010, 11:42:46 AM »
 8) ??? 8)

Doug great attitude and I bet you have a great place ! Wish you all  the best with your business .  Not all business owners would welcome such competition . You must have great food and cold beer!

The question is when does the government overstep it's bounds vis a vis involvement with owning businesses. Why would owning a restaurant differ from owning a golf course with banquet facilities. It's not at all like building roads or police and fire at all. Smart business people like yourself seem to think that the government should be in the golf business and we can respectfully disagree .
As an owner of three golf courses in my lifetime  and designer builder of one I see the competition as patently unfair.


As to my personal expereinces with same in our area, it's a rigged deck . they harass the people who don't have their banquet or tournament at the public owned entity , amongst other atrocities. But that's business in NJ I guess.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 01:26:45 PM by archie_struthers »

Matt_Ward

Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2010, 12:30:54 PM »
Archie:

You and I agree CCFAD's - like Chambers Bay and others of that ilk -- should not be supported through the usage of tax dollars.

You do see a role for muni's -- as pipelines for entry into the game. Great. In many cases -- these muni's -- see the counties of Monmouth, Morris and Somerset -- all here in NJ -- do a fine job and frankly they don't prevent other privately-owned facilties from operating. What hurts those facilities is the high property taxes and regulatory burdens the state imposes upon them.

Gov't does play a role in providing a base level for a range of other services -- libraries, other recreational activities including public universities and the like. Such investments advance a broader range of people and likely encourage the most devoted to seek even better facilities at a higher level.

If you believe gov't has no role -- then frankly you and I part ways on that analysis.

archie_struthers

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2010, 01:28:50 PM »
 8) ??? 8)

I've been crystal clear for two years , no big money boondoggles financed by taxpayers and where low end clubs already exist , don't build them at all , build more libraries!

Matt_Ward

Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2010, 04:48:00 PM »
Archie:

What would be really nice is for privately-owned daily fee operations include some real desire to connect with those that don't have the deepest of pockets. Far too many times the privately-owned courses simply want to exist in their self-created bubble world and only cherry-pick off those with the fattest of billfolds.

archie_struthers

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2010, 09:17:26 PM »
 ??? ::) ??? ::) ::) ??? ::) ??? ::) ??? ::) ??? ::)


how about Buena , Mays Landing , and Avalon for starters.......all privately owned and priced reasonably .....The market reacts to demand , it is elastic.....just like a free market should be.... these are all within a half hour of my house and quite nice



If Galloway , Merion and Pine Valley want to charge a lot more , isn't it their right ?????

« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 09:22:58 PM by archie_struthers »

Dave McCollum

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2010, 11:05:43 PM »
This is a very old argument that has rarely been won by privately owned courses.  I run and own a public course.  The City owns a much older muni that they are forced to subsidize with tax dollars, smoke and mirrors accounting, no property taxes, and many of the practices cited above like free golf for local pols and other department heads.  So, yes, when my course was developed, we knew the competition.  Not much need to tell you where I stand in this discussion.  A few years ago the county (I border the city limits) tripled my property taxes.  I appealed citing many of these same arguments.  Some old, thirty-year veteran commissioner told me:  “In all my years in this post, Dave, that was the most interesting and well prepared appeal I’ve heard…rejected.”

The issue boiled down to how golf courses were appraised.  In my view, the appraisal model was flawed, not based on our local economy, and greatly influenced by building costs of real estate driven courses, resorts, CCFAD’s, and, of course, much different land acquisition costs.  By state law, appraisals have to be at least 90% of comparable properties.  I was able to convince the appraiser to base his appraisal on an income or revenue analysis instead of a national formula found in his appraisal manual.  In other words, the analysis be based on the property taxes paid by other local businesses and compared to all local golf properties, except the muni.  I then submitted my financial statements  to the appraiser, called every private or privately owned public course, for profit and non-profit, and convinced them to do the same.  The other courses sent in their numbers, with the condition that this financial information would be used internally and confidentially by the appraisers.  No owner or club got to see any of their competition’s info.  Some courses were in neighboring counties, so some coordinating between these different government entities was needed.  However, the result was more of an apples-to-apples comparative analysis.   All of our property taxes were reduced by 30 to 50%.

I don’t know if this approach would work anywhere else.  Laws differ in every state or locality.  Also, this is a mostly middle class rural area (Idaho).  We have public courses, privately owned public courses, and equity country clubs.  However, most offer affordable golf and, except for the muni, are priced fairly competitively.  It may illustrate nothing more than businesses standing together and challenging unfair taxation.  We all still have to compete with the tax subsidized local muni which is very popular and has many loyal players.  We all have to do this by offering a better product.  We all are very thankful that the muni is a crappy little course, but a good place for players to learn the game.  Almost all golfers don't give a damn about architecture.  That may be a good thing for the muni.  That place is an resonably conditioned, architectural eyesore. 

Doug Siebert

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2010, 12:30:27 AM »
Archie,

It sounds like your issue involves some good old fashion government corruption to go along with municipal ownership.  Obviously that makes it harder to compete against government, but the same thing could happen if with a private course that "had connections" with the local government.  I'm sure there are some stories out there of some favored club getting tax appraisals for pennies on the dollar compared to their less-favored competitors, always getting the city/county events at their site year after year, etc.  Obviously it'd be tough to compete against that regardless of your business, regardless if you were competing directly against a government owned business or not.

I hadn't thought of it until now, but my GM had mentioned to me last week that the local police department is having their christmas party at my place, 4th year in a row they've done so I believe.  So obviously Iowa isn't New Jersey corruption-wise, because otherwise you'd think they could probably cut a better deal having it in the banquet room of that fancy $3 million clubhouse 8)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Cliff Hamm

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2010, 09:16:33 AM »
8) ??? 8)

I've been crystal clear for two years , no big money boondoggles financed by taxpayers and where low end clubs already exist , don't build them at all , build more libraries!

Archie, why should government build libraries when they compete with Borders, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, etc.?

archie_struthers

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2010, 09:50:35 AM »
 8) ;D 8)

Giood one Cliff, got caught with my tongue in my cheek again. There are some things that even the most conservative Libertarian might think government should do , so it's a question of where you draw the line .

I really don't see why we golfers should expect the government to subsiidize our pastime , pleasure by building expensive golf courses that discount prices for locals. It's a nice thing for golfers who benefit , but hurts local golf course operators and taxpayers. In that I qualify on both counts I'm real sensitive to how difficult it is to compete with the subsidized entity. The whole permitting and approval process is different for them. it extends to improvements etc etc etc. it's just not a good practice. Heaven forbid you take a position against them and the fire inspectors , health inspectors get marching orders to give you the white glove tratment.

For me , I draw the line at low cost muni's like Dave McCollum mentioned . That's the only public owned  golf entity I could support, while grandfathering places like Bethpage , which has a proven track record. Owners of existing courses should do their part as good citizens to support local charities and youth activities. I'd venture to say that most golf courses are large supporters of local charities!

Lou_Duran

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2010, 10:37:32 AM »
Some old, thirty-year veteran commissioner told me:  “In all my years in this post, Dave, that was the most interesting and well prepared appeal I’ve heard…rejected.”

Dave,

Though not on a golf course property, your tax experience reminded me of my own with a Texas appraisal district on a rent property it vastly overvalued.  Here, we are limited to around 10 minutes to present our case, including the time for the staff appraiser to rebutt our claims, though the restriction is an administrative guideline that I have seldom seen enforced.

I was making the point to the three-member panel that consistent with their guidelines, the income method should be considered on a rental property in arriving at the tax value, and that this widely accepted approach would suggest an amount that was half of that being recommended by staff.  Of course, the appraiser was asked by the panel if he had considered that, and as he fumbled through his notes unsuccessfully, he asked what my monthly rent was, annualized it and said that by applying a 10% capitalization rate to that total, his vaule estimate was spot on.

Dumbfounded at his obvious ignorance, I stated that the income approach is based on net income, that is, revenue less expenses, and he needed to reduce the annual rent by expenses including property taxes before applying the 10% cap rate.  Had he done that, his "spot on value estimate" was well over twice of that indicated by the proper appraisal rules application of the income method.  Of course, he couldn't argue because he knew that I was right, but was saved by the gavel as the chair imposed the time limit over my objection and moved to a vote that went 2 to 1 against me.

This sort of thing happens much too often as the "little guy" only has recourse by filing suit in district court.  Instead of spending thousands and the hassle to save a few hundred dollars in property taxes, most just go away wilth lasting resentment toward "their" public servants.  The taxing authorities have the law directing them, but when the law is so regularly replaced by the rule of men, they know what the tax base is and what their government masters demand in tax revenues.

More on point, a private golf course owner not only has the cited disadvanatages to overcome, but it must be particularly grating that he is in effect competing with himself.  The local property, sales, and in some cases, income taxes that he pays on all his holdings and economic acitivities are used to subsidise an operation which directly seeks to take business away from him.  And the less successful the competing public business is, the more he has to contribute to its subsidies.  Not a happy situation.

The other issue that has not been touched on is the differences in the regulatory environment applied to a private sector vs. government project.  Amazing that a golf course on the same land was not feasible because of master plan ordinances and public thoroughfare needs, but when the city decides to build one, these are no longer concerns (happened to me in a relatively regulatory "benign" Texas city).  Something to do with "professional courtesy and the "good of the people" I suppose.  Oh, that course, millions over budget, and in 15 years has not come within 10,000 rounds of reaching "normalized" projections.  Not to worry about closing down, or lowering their green fees much to spur demand for that matter.  

 

  

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2010, 10:49:16 AM »
Archie,

Does anyone know how many munis have been built over the objections of the voters?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

archie_struthers

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2010, 11:19:32 AM »
 ??? ??? ???

Jim, I'm not sure about the answer to your question, but they all haven't been aprroved by referendum. So , in many cases I'm guessing the public doesn't have to vote. It's a much harder sell these days so it would appear less would be built given the economic realities . 

More likely a town or county might use "open space" funding to prevent development and purchase an eisting facility. Prices are certainly way down from previous highs and seem attractive to some.  It still needs someone to run it efficiently , not an easy task .

Matt_Ward

Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2010, 11:25:01 AM »
Lou:

The consistency of how the rules are applied may be a Texas issue -- I can assure you that isn't the case in other states -- the Northeast being one of them. Environmental guidelines are not pushed aside simply because of who the owner is. A great example of that was the desire for a private firm to develop some locally-controlled golf courses in and around the Meadowlands area through the En-Cap situation. The full disclosure elements were in full effect for that situation.

Doug:

Archie has a major bitch with the muni that opened right down the street from Twisted Dune. I have no issue with people complaining about cost overruns - but frankly the place in question is really just a bare bones operation that provides very reasonable rates for the less than deep pocket people who travel to the greater AC area. Even locals need a place to play that is very cost conscious.

Dave:

Thanks for sharing but I would tend to say your situation is rather unique to the area in Idaho you live.

Archie:

You mentioned Galloway National, Merion and PV -- help me out here -- when did I say that private-ONLY clubs cannot charge what they wish ?

I mentioned the privately-owned daily fee variety that are available to the public. Got it now.

Let me also mention the places you did list that are available to the public could use some real improvements. I played two of them this past season and frankly they are a bit old in the tooth. Public offerings should not be CCFAD's to the max -- but they should not be close replicas of the farm pasture either.

Archie -- Avalon is $84 during the high season. Not exactly cheap for most people. Mays Landing is also $74 during the peak months.

I'll say this again -- NJ has the 8th most expensive market to start with -- having taxpayer-owned layouts allows for the masses to avoid being stuck with the excessively high fees charged by the top tier CCFAD's. Archie, I don't doubt that a number of courses do provide soem charity-related dimension -- but let's be clear -- the only reason why people are bitching is because when times get tight it's e-z to blame gov't-owned courses as the scape goat. When times were flush you didn't hear the bitching and moaning -- they were simply content to let the cash register sing and sing.


Matt_Ward

Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2010, 11:34:16 AM »
Jim:

In NJ, as best I know, bonding ordinances don't require a public vote to move ahead for a golf course development.

Many communities do require a bit more of a voter approval by the relevant approval authority beyond straight majority vote.

Clearly, if a facillity were forced upon the respective taxpaying members -- the retribution would come out at the polls when the next election is held.

One other thing -- most Jerseyans have supported golf courses because they do provide an open space dimension that allows for fees to be generated -- often times it is those fees which have helped underwrite other park / recreational activities.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2010, 12:10:32 PM »
Matt,

I suspect quite the opposite, that Texas is probably better on these things than the NE and other high-tax/big-gov. areas.  Believe it or not, Joe Developer building a for-profit project is treated very differently than Mayor Jim driving some public works through.  Example: in SoCal, a private developer of a medium rise office building had to "contribute" $3 million to the city for parks and other discretionary objectives while no such requirements were made of a builder of a nearby government project.  And in this particular case, according to the local paper, the two dissenting members of the five member public board which approved the private office building were preparing a suit agains the other three on the grounds that some discussion had taken place outside of a public forum, and that the $3 million "contribution"/bribe wasn't sufficient.  Of course, the commercial real estate market today in SoCal like many other places is in deep doodoo.

Given that govt. is into everything else and there's not a whole hell of a lot that the relatively small minority who are "carrying the water" in terms of paying for the costs can do about it short of moving to less egregious locales, my recommendation for Govgolf is first to require all projects to come individually to the voter during a major election (e.g. first Tuesday of Nov. , mostly in even years).  And second, that the construction budget and green fee structure be set so that the operation runs in the black without property and sales tax exemptions, and covering debt service as well as replacement costs (no deferred maintenance).  I suspect that few would get approved, and of those that do, very few would meet the financial performance requirements.

Maybe it would be much easier to issue vouchers or coupons to the "needy" (a couple not making $250,000 who are, by definition, "rich") to be used at existing facilites, though I can see how that would not be as much fun for those running "The Machine".   I'll never forget how content our asst. P & R director was rubbing elbows with the golf celebrities and being in the sphere of attention during media day.  And not one cent of his money was at risk!  How does that song go, "money for nothing and the chicks for free"?      

archie_struthers

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Re: Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2010, 12:29:52 PM »
 

 >:( ::) :o :(



Hey Matt we've beaten this up ad nauseum many times and we don't agree .  That 's ok  but I don't  appreciate  you quoting what I thnk without me elucidating same.

It's pretty simple , I'm against government being in the golf business, in my neighborhood or yours.  I'm also against them operating steak houses or any other business that some tax payer may be involved in .  That's it in a nutshell.  Please do me a favor and don't extrapolate that the only reason I take this position is because we got screwed at Twisted Dune. It just solidified my position.

I'm also for limited government spending , plain and simple . Infrastrructure , education , defense  are all critical to America's succes going forward. Just because I believe this does not make me a Republican .  I'm for term limits.  Big time. But that's just a pipedream. Corruption , coercion and bribery has been the coin of the realm for politicians since the Greeks and the Romans legislated by fiat.

If you believe that Texas and Idaho are less corrupt than NJ . you are really drinking way too much politicial Kool -Aid , are you kidding me ??????   Try to get a permit for anything in this state without hiring a bevy of the "right " lawyers , engineers etc etc etc. My God it costs $1500 in permit fees to put a deck on a house in my home town....

All this being said , Ii appreciate your opinions on golf and your knowledge of distant ports of call. It makes for a great site !