Bandon Dunes and Enlightened Capitalism

[Mike_Young]

Anthony,
" instead of trampling.....paying someone off....Enemies..."   I think most people who are capitalist work in this manner and the few who don't are the exception...not the other way around....AND I think that is why so often there is a huge disconnect between right and left...we always hear the bad from both sides....JMO

Again the fact that it happens often does not mean it happens all the time. And again, the fact that someone has a criticism of people on the right wing fringe or the way business is sometimes conducted does not mean I am 'on the left'.

Thomas Jefferson said, 'the price of liberty is eternal vigilance'. We can't be sure exactly who Jefferson saw as the enemies of liberty, but I would argue the biggest threat to our liberty is not some terrorist toting a a vintage Soviet RPG launcher in Pakistan. Continuing to run up our national debt and be in further in hock to the Saudis and Chinese is a far greater threat to US national security.

Mike-How much trampling and paying off you think occurs in our society would depend on your attitude towards the Supreme Court allowing business interests to conduct unlimited, anonymous fund-raising for elections... Which the US Chamber of Commerce immediately took advantage of this past election cycle.  I see that as trampling the rights of individuals who don't have that luxury.

Anthony,
I live in one of the most liberal towns in the SE....we have stuff like Pomegranite juice smoothies and carrot cookies and all the stuff that the back to nature dudes etc have to have....even have bike paths in the streets ....and a ton of the little scooters....so many of the residents shun their backpacks and man purses at anyone that works a normal job or drives a car that is not electric....THEY PROFESS TO BE ALL ABOUT NATURE....and that's what really freaks me....nature is not fair ....somebody gets eaten....some animals are born with less intellect or less athletic ability than the others and nature can be cruel.....yet these same dudes think all humans should be equal and all have the same...it just doesn't work that way....left and right have plenty of empathy for people and have always worked to further the plight of human beings...I happen to be one that thinks private venture does a better job than government....so I look at it all as competition...whether it be an election...a sporting event, a beauty contest, or selling a golf design....so I got no problem w anonymous campaign contributions etc....I have more problems with some pompous ass group like the NCAA that "lives a lie" knowing that all schools have to compete with $$$$ for the good players and act as if they have no idea.....

[Lou_Duran]

[Anthony,
I live in one of the most liberal towns in the SE....we have stuff like Pomegranite juice smoothies and carrot cookies and all the stuff that the back to nature dudes etc have to have....even have bike paths in the streets ....and a ton of the little scooters....so many of the residents shun their backpacks and man purses at anyone that works a normal job or drives a car that is not electric....THEY PROFESS TO BE ALL ABOUT NATURE....and that's what really freaks me....nature is not fair ....somebody gets eaten....some animals are born with less intellect or less athletic ability than the others and nature can be cruel.....yet these same dudes think all humans should be equal and all have the same...it just doesn't work that way....left and right have plenty of empathy for people and have always worked to further the plight of human beings...I happen to be one that thinks private venture does a better job than government....so I look at it all as competition...whether it be an election...a sporting event, a beauty contest, or selling a golf design....so I got no problem w anonymous campaign contributions etc....I have more problems with some pompous ass group like the NCAA that "lives a lie" knowing that all schools have to compete with $$$$ for the good players and act as if they have no idea.....

Ah, yes.  I remember, where the men are unusually sensitive and current on the benefits of modern masculine hygiene, particularly the highly salutory effects of a good wax in areas where the sun seldom shines.

[Mike_Young]

[Anthony,
I live in one of the most liberal towns in the SE....we have stuff like Pomegranite juice smoothies and carrot cookies and all the stuff that the back to nature dudes etc have to have....even have bike paths in the streets ....and a ton of the little scooters....so many of the residents shun their backpacks and man purses at anyone that works a normal job or drives a car that is not electric....THEY PROFESS TO BE ALL ABOUT NATURE....and that's what really freaks me....nature is not fair ....somebody gets eaten....some animals are born with less intellect or less athletic ability than the others and nature can be cruel.....yet these same dudes think all humans should be equal and all have the same...it just doesn't work that way....left and right have plenty of empathy for people and have always worked to further the plight of human beings...I happen to be one that thinks private venture does a better job than government....so I look at it all as competition...whether it be an election...a sporting event, a beauty contest, or selling a golf design....so I got no problem w anonymous campaign contributions etc....I have more problems with some pompous ass group like the NCAA that "lives a lie" knowing that all schools have to compete with $$$$ for the good players and act as if they have no idea.....

Ah, yes.  I remember, where the men are unusually sensitive and current on the benefits of modern masculine hygiene, particularly the highly salutory effects of a good wax in areas where the sun seldom shines.

Lou,
We are at the forefront of such....

[Jud_T]

I don't really care how Mr. K made his money, whether he's the biggest Conservative Ass or the most annoying bleeding heart liberal on the planet.  I don't care if he only drinks $25 a cup coffee that's been strained through a live cat's intestine or has a secret fetish for Oprah's preworn shoes.  All I know is the guy has built the best golf resort in the world bar none and I can't wait to get back there next summer.  And that's not a bad legacy to have...

[Tim Martin]

I don't really care how Mr. K made his money, whether he's the biggest Conservative Ass or the most annoying bleeding heart liberal on the planet.  I don't care if he only drinks $25 a cup coffee that's been strained through a live cat's intestine or has a secret fetish for Oprah's preworn shoes.  All I know is the guy has built the best golf resort in the world bar none and I can't wait to get back there next summer.  And that's not a bad legacy to have...

Jud-That`s a five star post for both it`s content and amusement.

[William_G]

I don't really care how Mr. K made his money, whether he's the biggest Conservative Ass or the most annoying bleeding heart liberal on the planet.  I don't care if he only drinks $25 a cup coffee that's been strained through a live cat's intestine or has a secret fetish for Oprah's preworn shoes.  All I know is the guy has built the best golf resort in the world bar none and I can't wait to get back there next summer.  And that's not a bad legacy to have...

Jud-That`s a five star post for both it`s content and amusement.

hahaha, but it is a nice bonus that he is a nice guy

[Jim Nugent]

The idea that big corporations are universally pro-free market is one of the biggest myths out there.

I agree.  It's almost the exact opposite IMO.  Big corporations do all they can to stifle free markets.  Governments are only too happy to oblige them, often under the guise of protecting the consumer. 

If someone believes in free market capitalism, they would not require their employees to sign non-compete agreements.

100% not true.  As Jeff Taylor pointed out, employees in a free market are free not to sign non-compete agreements.  They can look for work elsewhere, start their own companies, go wherever their abilities and desires lead them. 

Convicted, treasonous scumbags like Lewis Libby are walking the streets while some poor kid with a bag full of dope can end up serving a couple of years in prison.

What "treasonous" acts do you think Libby committed? 

Anthony, perhaps I missed it, but I still haven't seen you back up the theme in your initial post: that government officials made Bandon better than it otherwise would have been.  Exactly how did they do this? 

[Anthony Butler]

The idea that big corporations are universally pro-free market is one of the biggest myths out there.

I agree.  It's almost the exact opposite IMO.  Big corporations do all they can to stifle free markets.  Governments are only too happy to oblige them, often under the guise of protecting the consumer.  

If someone believes in free market capitalism, they would not require their employees to sign non-compete agreements.

100% not true.  As Jeff Taylor pointed out, employees in a free market are free not to sign non-compete agreements.  They can look for work elsewhere, start their own companies, go wherever their abilities and desires lead them.  

Convicted, treasonous scumbags like Lewis Libby are walking the streets while some poor kid with a bag full of dope can end up serving a couple of years in prison.

What "treasonous" acts do you think Libby committed?  

Anthony, perhaps I missed it, but I still haven't seen you back up the theme in your initial post: that government officials made Bandon better than it otherwise would have been.  Exactly how did they do this?  

Maybe I've given everyone on this board, certainly those who have wheeled out the usual anti-lefty nonsense, a little too much credit in their ability to be challenged by a point of view and not respond with the usual 'man purse' comments about people who care about the environment.  


1. It seems that some people have completely and perhaps deliberately missed the point of my first post. It's not anti-business. I work for one of the largest corporations in America. And I signed a non-compete agreement. If Lou Duran got his head out of the right side of his ass, and read my previous posts he could work it out who it was. Instead he's making dumb-ass jokes about working in the mailroom. Lou, if you've managed to scrape a few bucks into your 401k, you own shares in my company. If not, I think we'll do just fine without you on the shareholders register...

2. Just because I am a capitalist tool doesn't mean I'm a complete tool. I'm under no illusions that anything beyond the ability to keep the cash register spinning is why I am well compensated for what I do. Conforming to a capitalistic worldview will not save your job. Only your ability to produce for that capital.

3. I don't drive an electric car. I take regular showers. And I don't drink latte. (For starters you can't even get a decent espresso in the US.) I work in my free time for a committee that produces quantifiable reductions in  CO2 emissions in our town through capital investments we make in building efficiency. We push the town to adopt more rigorous energy consumption standards every year. That's why I have an interest in the subject of sustainable business and how it relates to golf. Making fun of people who take their own shopping bags to Whole Foods is not the same as making a contribution.

4. If you don't see that revealing the name of a covert CIA agent when you have taken an oath on a Bible to protect this country from its enemies is an act of treason, I cant help you.

5. It's never been said that government officials made Bandon Dunes better. Otherwise the Thread Topic header would read "Bandon Dunes and Enlightened Government". I simply made the argument that compelled to address the needs of the community when building his development, Mike Keiser probably got a better result. What's the lesson here and can it be applied to other enterprises?' Golf related or otherwise.

If you can't advance that discussion, please go post your 5 favorite non-top 100 courses.

[Tim Bert]

Kingsley is definitely one of my top 5 non top 100 courses. Is Ballyneal on the Golf Digest list yet?  If not, then that makes two.

[Carl Rogers]

Mr. Butler,
I think your sense of frustration with this thread might stem from your choice of thread title. The phrase of "enlightened capitalism" is a pretty loaded one.
Why don't you just say that Mr. K had different way to go about the golf business and it has resonated in a positive way with a significant segment of the golfing public for a variety of reasons.  Those reasons have been stated in this thread.

[Jeff Taylor]

Anthony wrtites:
"4. If you don't see that revealing the name of a covert CIA agent when you have taken an oath on a Bible to protect this country from its enemies is an act of treason, I cant help you."

Are we talking about Richard Armitage or Scooter Libby? I think it was Artmitage that leaked information about Ms. Plame. Correct me if I am wrong. On second thought, don't worry about it.

Anyway, your last point (#5) should have been your original post. Lobbing grenades was not necessary. Bandon Dunes has been successful but it would be interesting to see if that experience is different for other modern resorts. Environmental advocates have had their say for quite some time. Did they work together or did Mr. Keiser succeed in spite of their requirements?

[Ted Cahill]

With reports of the Pistol River golf resort possibly opening in 2011, I fear we will have another example of "traditional capitialism" when it comes to golf resorts.  Phrases that I keep hearing tossed around re: Pistol River- "buisness meeting friendly" and "spectacular property views".  The developers continue to refer to the archie as P. Dye- in a vain hope that most will not know the difference between Pete and Perry.  That kind of smoke and mirrors does not give one much faith that the developers are attempting anything but maximum profit.  I hope my pessimism is misguided.  However, I imagine that even the biggest Adam Smith syncophants will be wishing the anti development pro environment folks would have fought harder when the Pistol River Golf Community is unveiled.  I simply ask they dont add a stop light on 101 so that I'm not slowed down as I drive by on my way to Bandon...

[Don_Mahaffey]

Ted,
I believe Mr. Kaiser is into maximizing profits as well, he just knows a lot more about developing a profitable golf model than most. Everyone wants to make it about politics, greed, working with or against something or someone, or some other motive that fits their agenda. I really think it’s a whole lot simpler than that; some get it, and most do not. Mr. Kaiser saw a need for something different and its probably also about the kind of golf he prefers. I would like to think he took something he’s passionate about and made it happen. Nevertheless, it had to be good business as well, not because of personal greed, but because it has to be profitable to be economically, and environmentally, sustainable.

The pistol river folks probably think they are filling a need as well, they just have no idea that they are probably listening to the wrong experts.

[Anthony Butler]

Mr. Butler,
I think your sense of frustration with this thread might stem from your choice of thread title. The phrase of "enlightened capitalism" is a pretty loaded one.
Why don't you just say that Mr. K had different way to go about the golf business and it has resonated in a positive way with a significant segment of the golfing public for a variety of reasons.  Those reasons have been stated in this thread.

Carl, in other news, the sun came up yet again this morning... 

The fact Bandon Dunes has caught on with the American golfing public–or at least the part of it that has access to a private plane–is hardly new information. The number of fanboys on this discussion aboard attests to that. so I can't really add anything on the courses or resort itself that hasn't been discussed ad nauseum. Especially since I haven't had the pleasure of the visiting Bandon yet.

I spend about 50 hours a week thinking about how corporate America can better serve their customers while making a positive contribution to society, so that's the interesting aspect of Bandon for me–at least until I get there later this year. As mentioned in my original post, this certainly came through to me loud and clear while reading the book at 35,000 feet over the last month...

As applied to places like Cabot Links and Barnbougle Dunes the formula is pretty clear. The Government of Nova Scotia thinks so much of Cabot Links, they are financially supporting the development of the facility, so there's obviously something there worth discussing. At this point, I should probably go read the thread on government support of golf courses...

With Bethpage being a WPA project, Lou Duran is no doubt convinced Joseph Stalin was secretly involved in the design of the Red Course.

 

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony writes:

Anyway, your last point (#5) should have been your original post. L

The point of #5 was to remind people that it was my original post.

[Lou_Duran]

With Bethpage being a WPA project, Lou Duran is no doubt convinced Joseph Stalin was secretly involved in the design of the Red Course.

 

I was under the impression that this matter had been sufficiently litigated on this site with Burbeck getting the design credit.  Or did the good Dr. Moriarty discover Mad Joe's name on a ship's manifest mooring on Long Island during the time period in question?    

[George Pazin]

I spend about 50 hours a week thinking about how corporate America can better serve their customers while making a positive contribution to society...

Do you believe you are unique in this regard?

[William_G]

I spend about 50 hours a week thinking about how corporate America can better serve their customers while making a positive contribution to society...

Do you believe you are unique in this regard?

I think he might be, LOL.

[Jim Nugent]

It's never been said that government officials made Bandon Dunes better. Otherwise the Thread Topic header would read "Bandon Dunes and Enlightened Government". I simply made the argument that compelled to address the needs of the community when building his development, Mike Keiser probably got a better result. What's the lesson here and can it be applied to other enterprises?' Golf related or otherwise. [/size]

If you can't advance that discussion, please go post your 5 favorite non-top 100 courses.

Actually, you said that in your first post: "Mike Keiser as an Ayn Rand-style visionary whose ideas are tempered/moderated/improved by government officials and other domain experts..."

The rest of your answers to me in that post are equally spurious.  e.g. Libby did NOT reveal anyone's name.  The special prosecutor knew this, too.   

[Anthony Butler]

I spend about 50 hours a week thinking about how corporate America can better serve their customers while making a positive contribution to society...

Do you believe you are unique in this regard?

I said it made me qualified, not unique. Let me know if you need that explained any further.

[Anthony Butler]

It's never been said that government officials made Bandon Dunes better. Otherwise the Thread Topic header would read "Bandon Dunes and Enlightened Government". I simply made the argument that compelled to address the needs of the community when building his development, Mike Keiser probably got a better result. What's the lesson here and can it be applied to other enterprises?' Golf related or otherwise. [/size]

If you can't advance that discussion, please go post your 5 favorite non-top 100 courses.

Actually, you said that in your first post: "Mike Keiser as an Ayn Rand-style visionary whose ideas are tempered/moderated/improved by government officials and other domain experts..."

The rest of your answers to me in that post are equally spurious. 

That was an estimation of how the author of how 'Dream Golf" was attempting to position him in the narrative of the book, not necessarily my opinion.

If by spurious, you mean 100% accurate to anyone who doesn't spend 20 hours listening to Glenn Beck and Shaun Hannity, I totally agree with you.

[George Pazin]

I spend about 50 hours a week thinking about how corporate America can better serve their customers while making a positive contribution to society...

Do you believe you are unique in this regard?

I said it made me qualified, not unique. Let me know if you need that explained any further.

Don't need that explained, but it is quite clear from context that you feel that "enlightened capitalism" is far more rare than "roughshod capitalism". It might shock you to learn that most of us business owners take pride in performing valued services in return for our often modest rewards.

Free market capitalism requires the consent of two parties. It is the only form that does not utilize government force in some manner to achieve it results, unless one considers the enforcement of simple laws to be government force.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who believe free markets mean you are allowed to do anything - lie, cheat, steal, commit fraud, whatever. That's not free markets, that is anarchy, plain and simple. The notion that the Bernie Madoffs of the world represent free markets gone wild is simply not true.

[Jim Nugent]

It's never been said that government officials made Bandon Dunes better. Otherwise the Thread Topic header would read "Bandon Dunes and Enlightened Government". I simply made the argument that compelled to address the needs of the community when building his development, Mike Keiser probably got a better result. What's the lesson here and can it be applied to other enterprises?' Golf related or otherwise. [/size]

If you can't advance that discussion, please go post your 5 favorite non-top 100 courses.

Actually, you said that in your first post: "Mike Keiser as an Ayn Rand-style visionary whose ideas are tempered/moderated/improved by government officials and other domain experts..."

The rest of your answers to me in that post are equally spurious. 

That was an estimation of how the author of how 'Dream Golf" was attempting to position him in the narrative of the book, not necessarily my opinion.

Total b.s.  The whole point of your post was to compare "enlightened capitalism", which you admired and claim is at work at Bandon, and "Gilded Age capitalism", which you hate and feels rapes the planet.  Now you are claiming that is not your view.  A graduate of the Bill Clinton school of argumentative semantics? 

[Jim Nugent]

Anthony, as far as Libby is concerned, here is a quote from Wikipedia:

"On August 28, 2006, Christopher Hitchens claimed that Richard Armitage was the primary source of the Valerie Plame leak and that Fitzgerald knew this at the beginning of his investigation.[130] This was supported a month later by Armitage himself, who claimed that Mr. Fitzgerald had instructed him not to go public with this information."

In September 2008, Attorney Alan Dershowitz cited the "questionable investigation" of Scooter Libby as evidence of the problems brought to the criminal justice process by "politically appointed and partisan attorney general"

100% for sure, Libby was not the leak.  100% for sure, Fitzgerald knew this, nearly from the start. 

[Anthony Butler]

It's never been said that government officials made Bandon Dunes better. Otherwise the Thread Topic header would read "Bandon Dunes and Enlightened Government". I simply made the argument that compelled to address the needs of the community when building his development, Mike Keiser probably got a better result. What's the lesson here and can it be applied to other enterprises?' Golf related or otherwise. [/size]

If you can't advance that discussion, please go post your 5 favorite non-top 100 courses.

Actually, you said that in your first post: "Mike Keiser as an Ayn Rand-style visionary whose ideas are tempered/moderated/improved by government officials and other domain experts..."

The rest of your answers to me in that post are equally spurious.  

That was an estimation of how the author of how 'Dream Golf" was attempting to position him in the narrative of the book, not necessarily my opinion.

Total b.s.  The whole point of your post was to compare "enlightened capitalism", which you admired and claim is at work at Bandon, and "Gilded Age capitalism", which you hate and feels rapes the planet.  Now you are claiming that is not your view.  A graduate of the Bill Clinton school of argumentative semantics?  

"Raping the planet..." pretty sure I didn't use that expression, but whatever gets you off...

Actually what I said was: "One thing that stood out for me in the book was the sub-text of Mike Keiser as an Ayn Rand-style visionary whose ideas are tempered/moderated/improved by government officials and other domain experts who bring a regulatory, social, environmental or design viewpoint into whatever enterprise he is attempting to get off the floor."

So it really depends on your interpretation of the word sub-text, Jim. I'm going to save you the trouble of looking it up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtext

Here's the Cliff Notes version of the Wikipedia page:

Subtext is content of a book, play, musical work, film, video game or television series which is not announced explicitly by the characters (or author) but is implicit or becomes something understood by the observer of the work as the production unfolds. Subtext can also refer to the thoughts and motives of the characters which are only covered in an aside.

You will notice that it does not mention subtext being the explicit viewpoint of the reader or viewer... Since I haven't met him, I'm not sure what the author of Dream Golf meant when he made a point of outlining the political viewpoints of the main characters in the book. It's definitely not an accident, since it comes up several times in the book. It almost goes beyond being a subtext to the main story of the book. i.e. the creation of the Bandon Dunes resort and presents more as an alternative narrative to the commonly accepted 'great man' theory previously being told about the building of the resort.

Obviously the fact Bill Clinton was President for 8 war and recession-free years still bugs you. Perhaps a nice fresh bag of Dick's Nuts will calm you down, you 'ole teabagger you...