[Anthony Butler]

... where people get to make what they want free of any government oversight or consideration of the long-term impact on our planet, with the implicit notion that the market will sort it all out.

Are you implying that there should be MORE government regulation?

Perhaps Mr. Keiser had a unique opportunity to build Bandon and capitalized on it.  

If the Bandon opportunity was located a few hundred miles south in California, it is highly doubtful that it would ever be completed.

Hi Mike,

In general there should be less government regulation on pretty much anything... because it would easier to ensure people actually complied to the parts that really matter.

The only thing the world needs more of is.... Vizslas!  

http://flic.kr/p/8ZoYa2

[George Pazin]

Hi Mike,

In general there should be less government regulation on pretty much anything... because it would easier to ensure people actually complied to the parts that really matter.

The only thing the world needs more of is.... Vizslas!  

http://flic.kr/p/8ZoYa2

Not sure whether to be flattered or hurt...

[Lou_Duran]

I found Anthony's original characterization about the capitalism favored by the "likes" of Cheney and Smith to be little more than a strawman and highly prejudicial.  In my 50 years of work- I started very early- I've yet to meet a single individual who wants or expects to operate in a vacumn and doesn't care about his impact on the world around him.  I would suggest that to be successful in business one either has to be communal and highly enlighted, or tied very closely to the political power centers.  I have far greater fear of the crony capitalist than I do with the guy who charges what the market will bear and succeeds in business because he can cover the costs of his inputs with enough left over for his family and to reinvest in his enterprise (yes, you lefties out there, productive capacity requires investment, replacement, and the capital to do so).  Unless an "unenlightened" capitalist is tied to his cronies in the political power structure, he simply fails, tries again, or just goes away.  Something called evolution and survival of the fittest, I think.  So, to be a successful capitalist over the long run, by definition, one must be enlightened, even if his politics differ than yours.

Regarding Bandon Dunes and the local community, I've spent a little time in town and spoke to a number of folks, and what John K reports is heard fairly often.  There is some resentment over the alleged increase in prices, the type of people visiting the resort, and the relatively low wage scale common to the service industry.  I've taken a local caddy who didn't have superior alternative employment opportunities, and though she was highly ineffective in her new work, nonetheless expressed disatisfaction with the status quo. 

I admire what Mike has done in Bandon, but I certainly don't see him as a patron saint of the common golfer.  From what I see, he prices aggressively on the margin and given the difficult location, weather, and lack of alternative activities in the area, it will be interesting to see if the resort in its current form is sustainable over the long run.  I've met several people locally (TX) who have been to the resort, spoke well of the experience, but have no plans of returning.  I hope GCA.com grows its rolls and sphere of influence because the site, along with Golfweek, have been great supporters (it gets my recommendation every time I am asked for a great place for a golf trip). 

[Dave McCollum]

"Business was way up this summer with the advent of Old MacDonald, not to the pre-recession levels, but way up from the dark days of 2009." -- Terry Lavin

That's good that sales were up.  It still doesn't tell us whether Keiser is making money or getting a healthy return on his investment.  I think everyone (myself included) assumes he is given the way the resort was carefully scaled up over the years.  However, public golf is a crap shoot.  You can raise prices to meet a demand from a class of affluent traveling golfers or various other marketing strategies.  But you can't simply assess your membership for more money to meet expenses.  No doubt Keiser has deep enough pockets to ride out economic ups and downs.  However, as far as I can tell, most of us have no idea what kind of profit BD generates.

I know, I know, he's building another 12 hole short course this winter and spring.  Is it being driven by popular demand or on the come like the first course?  I don't have a clue.  My point is I see a lot of assumptions being made by folks here that don't know any more about the business reality of BD than I do.  I doubt it, but Keiser could be creating a work of art as his legacy to golf.

[Anthony Gray]

  What are the rates now compared to when it first opened for a room and golf?

  Also transplants benefit the local economy.

   Anthony

[Anthony Butler]

I found Anthony's original characterization about the capitalism favored by the "likes" of Cheney and Smith to be little more than a strawman and highly prejudicial.  

Lou-You're right insofar as making whatever you can, however you can, and giving back on your terms is an unfair characterization of Dick Cheney. He has given very little back to society on his terms or anyone else's unless you want to count his years in Bush Administration which I view less as public service and more as a public looting. Adam Smith, if he were alive today, would either be an economics professor at the University of Chicago, or in some right-wing think tank on the campus of Stanford University. Giving back in a manner approximate to the level at which society has rewarded you is more the province of the Rockefellers, Carnegies and Mellons and, in this day and age, the Gates Family and Ted Turner.

Hard to know what the percentages were on Mike Keiser viewing himself as performing a public service versus fulfilling a personal dream. As the scale and meaning of what he was doing in Bandon Dunes moved beyond his original concept, he seems to have embraced the latter. He even calls himself the Johnny Appleseed of Golf at the end of Dream Golf

The one unintended negative impact of Bandon Dunes: As its fame has grown throughout the world, people are creating more and more CO2 emissions specifically for the purpose of getting to his resort. For instance, my carbon footprint for a return trip to Bend, Oregon from home base in Concord, MA would be 2350 lbs of CO2, the equivalent of 2,800 miles travel in my car. That's about half the amount of miles I put on my car every year just for 4-5 rounds of golf.

[Mike_Young]

Anthony,
The biggest thing missing here when Carnegie and all the "bad" guys are mentioned...is the fact that they had no spin doctors and didn't realize the need for such.....the right publicist and promotion goes a long way in today's climate when it comes to how a business is perceived.....as much as I can appreciate Keiser and Bandon and other visionary types....I also appreciate Carnegie, Rockefeller and those guys....
I grow tired of the constant promotion today of things such as "green" and LEEDS when the basics have been going on for sometime but now it becomes the "in-thing"....same for Audubon courses...just paying for PR and making money for Audubon....
Kudos to Keiser, Bandon, Carnegie, Rockefeller and all....

[Jeff Taylor]

Anthony writes:
"Dick Cheney. He has given very little back to society on his terms or anyone else's unless you want to count his years in Bush Administration which I view less as public service and more as a public looting."

I eagerly await the release of your biography of Dick Cheney. If one is not coming then I suggest you find someone that better fits your theory. After all, to call a man that has been in public service for decades a looter is hyperbole. I am not in the tank for Mr. Cheney but you need to be more specific if you wish to make your case.


As for the carbon foot print to get back and forth to Bandon, don't worry. CAGW theory has about two years of life left (at the most). And besides, plants thrive on CO2. Increasing your frequency of trips to Bandon will help a resort that you respect so much to stay in business and you will be supporting plant life.

I think it is easier to say that Mr. Keiser has done a good job with Bandon and that you like going there. Not sure it needs to be any bigger than that.

[John Kavanaugh]

  What are the rates now compared to when it first opened for a room and golf?

  Also transplants benefit the local economy.

   Anthony

No, transplants take the best jobs from the locals just before they steal their women.

[Ted Cahill]

Anthony- Thanks for starting this thread.  All topics Bandon are of great interest, pleasure to me.  Of course, I've read Dream Golf- it's a nice shot in the arm when I'm jonesing for a Bandon trip.  I come from a left leaning perspective.  I generally bristle at most CEO puff profiles and the culture that worships the "benevolent" rich guy.  However, Mike Keiser IMO rises above this.  I see him more in the light of a true golf enthusiast who had the means and, thankfully, instincts (for lack of a better term) to share his enthusiasm with the golfing world.  By all reports, Mike Keiser's personal politics  lean fairly right.  I'm glad he (as the story is told) took a far more practical outlook to build Bandon Dunes.  Howard McKee, a staunch enviromentalist, was as important as anyone in bringing Bandon to fruition.  Their approach was to work with government agencies and regulators to develop the resort- they did the hard work of reaching out to locals to get buy in- not run roughshod over these groups as free market ideolouges would encourage.  On my first trip to Bandon, as I pulled into the resort off of hwy 101 at 2am after a 10 hr drive, an ear to ear grin came accross my face as I approached a sign with large letters that read, "Public Welcome".  In the high season, Bandon is not cheap (although, far more reasonable than other resorts in it's class).  But now that we are in the "low" season, it is a positive bargain.  I grew up playing golf on muni courses with guys getting off the night shift at the auto factory pulling their clubs out of the car trunk for nine holes after the night shift.  I have always bristled at the ridiculous idea that golf is just a play thing of the rich.  However, when I go to places like Whistling Straits or TPC Sawgrass (great resorts) my faith can be tested when paired with some silver spoon asshats and their pro shop clothes and overinflated opinions of themselves.  Then I go to Bandon and play with people from different backgrounds who all share a true love of golf.  At Bandon, your bank account won't protect you against sideways rain and a three club wind.  In fact, if youre out there in those conditions when you could afford frozen towels in Palm Springs, I think were going to enjoy a round together.....

[Jeff Taylor]

"Their approach was to work with government agencies and regulators to develop the resort- they did the hard work of reaching out to locals to get buy in- not run roughshod over these groups as free market ideolouges would encourage."

Generalize much?

[Lou_Duran]

This "hate the rich"/class envy just deflates me completely because it is so counterproductive and has such a profoundly negative impact on those who its practioners purport to champion- the person who depends on job for a living.  There is even an opinion piece in the Dallas Morning News today positioning envy and class warfare as a positive force driving the little guy to compete and rise above his station.  Nonsense. 

Golf in general and Bandon specifically face a difficult future with no small part being played by the "us poor guys against 'sllver spoon asshats' " (that's one I hadn't heard before) mentality.  It takes considerable amounts of money to build and operate a golf course.  It took the wherewithall of Mr. Keiser and his fortune to create Bandon for all of us to enjoy.  It is not by accident that the prolific golden ages of golf design took place when people were able to create and amass great wealth.

Those of us who depend on others to provide jobs so that we can feed our families should be demanding completely the opposite of what the class warfare industry is feeding us.  I very much doubt that Bandon stays afloat on the revenues generated from the common man.  At least when I was there last, a few of the people playing in the outing flew private planes and the cars I saw in the parking lot hardly resembled those I see at my mother's local Walmart.

As to environmentally friendly practices, on more than a couple of occasions I've heard guys who were movers in the resort tell of the fortuitious fire that eradicated the gorse early in its history.  From the grin in their faces, a fair interpretation of their story could include that mother nature may have had a bit of help.

[Ted Cahill]

This "hate the rich"/class envy just deflates me completely because it is so counterproductive and has such a profoundly negative impact on those who its practioners purport to champion- the person who depends on job for a living.  There is even an opinion piece in the Dallas Morning News today positioning envy and class warfare as a positive force driving the little guy to compete and rise above his station.  Nonsense. 

Golf in general and Bandon specifically face a difficult future with no small part being played by the "us poor guys against 'sllver spoon asshats' " (that's one I hadn't heard before) mentality.  It takes considerable amounts of money to build and operate a golf course.  It took the wherewithall of Mr. Keiser and his fortune to create Bandon for all of us to enjoy.  It is not by accident that the prolific golden ages of golf design took place when people were able to create and amass great wealth.

Those of us who depend on others to provide jobs so that we can feed our families should be demanding completely the opposite of what the class warfare industry is feeding us.  I very much doubt that Bandon stays afloat on the revenues generated from the common man.  At least when I was there last, a few of the people playing in the outing flew private planes and the cars I saw in the parking lot hardly resembled those I see at my mother's local Walmart.

As to environmentally friendly practices, on more than a couple of occasions I've heard guys who were movers in the resort tell of the fortuitious fire that eradicated the gorse early in its history.  From the grin in their faces, a fair interpretation of their story could include that mother nature may have had a bit of help.

It's not my intention to start a class warfare debate here.  I will simply ask the question who is more dependent on who?  The working person on the buisness owner for a job or the buisness owner on their employees for a buisness?  I think my opinion is clear.  Those of us with strong opinions on either side of this debate are not likely to have our respective viewpoints changed.  This topic echos our current national debate on tax cuts for the wealthy- I simply want to challenge the idea that those who work for a living are dependent on the wealthy for their station in life.  I believe it to be the other way around.  Folks- please- lets try to avoid a flurry of posts attacking each others positions- I appreciate those who disagree with my position. 

[Ted Cahill]

This "hate the rich"/class envy just deflates me completely because it is so counterproductive and has such a profoundly negative impact on those who its practioners purport to champion- the person who depends on job for a living.  There is even an opinion piece in the Dallas Morning News today positioning envy and class warfare as a positive force driving the little guy to compete and rise above his station.  Nonsense. 

Golf in general and Bandon specifically face a difficult future with no small part being played by the "us poor guys against 'sllver spoon asshats' " (that's one I hadn't heard before) mentality.  It takes considerable amounts of money to build and operate a golf course.  It took the wherewithall of Mr. Keiser and his fortune to create Bandon for all of us to enjoy.  It is not by accident that the prolific golden ages of golf design took place when people were able to create and amass great wealth.

Those of us who depend on others to provide jobs so that we can feed our families should be demanding completely the opposite of what the class warfare industry is feeding us.  I very much doubt that Bandon stays afloat on the revenues generated from the common man.  At least when I was there last, a few of the people playing in the outing flew private planes and the cars I saw in the parking lot hardly resembled those I see at my mother's local Walmart.

As to environmentally friendly practices, on more than a couple of occasions I've heard guys who were movers in the resort tell of the fortuitious fire that eradicated the gorse early in its history.  From the grin in their faces, a fair interpretation of their story could include that mother nature may have had a bit of help.

It's not my intention to start a class warfare debate here.  I will simply ask the question who is more dependent on who?  The working person on the buisness owner for a job or the buisness owner on their employees for a buisness?  I think my opinion is clear.  Those of us with strong opinions on either side of this debate are not likely to have our respective viewpoints changed.  This topic echos our current national debate on tax cuts for the wealthy- I simply want to challenge the idea that those who work for a living are dependent on the wealthy for their station in life.  I believe it to be the other way around.  Folks- please- lets try to avoid a flurry of posts attacking each others positions- I appreciate those who disagree with my position

[John Kavanaugh]

I for one am very thankful this Holiday Season that I could be but an instrument through which work flows for so many fine people.  

[George Pazin]

I will simply ask the question who is more dependent on who?

Why does it have to be one or the other?

[John Kavanaugh]

I will simply ask the question who is more dependent on who?

Why does it have to be one or the other?

George,

It must be a difficult balancing act keeping employment high enough to spur the sale of new tee shirts while keeping the masses in want of one.  You might be happy to hear that because of the recent stimulus program we bought all of our employees a nice new orange tee to start out the year.  We couldn't do it without each other.

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony- Thanks for starting this thread.  All topics Bandon are of great interest, pleasure to me.  Of course, I've read Dream Golf- it's a nice shot in the arm when I'm jonesing for a Bandon trip.  I come from a left leaning perspective.  I generally bristle at most CEO puff profiles and the culture that worships the "benevolent" rich guy.  However, Mike Keiser IMO rises above this.  I see him more in the light of a true golf enthusiast who had the means and, thankfully, instincts (for lack of a better term) to share his enthusiasm with the golfing world.  By all reports, Mike Keiser's personal politics  lean fairly right.  I'm glad he (as the story is told) took a far more practical outlook to build Bandon Dunes.  Howard McKee, a staunch enviromentalist, was as important as anyone in bringing Bandon to fruition.  Their approach was to work with government agencies and regulators to develop the resort- they did the hard work of reaching out to locals to get buy in- not run roughshod over these groups as free market ideologues would encourage.  On my first trip to Bandon, as I pulled into the resort off of hwy 101 at 2am after a 10 hr drive, an ear to ear grin came accross my face as I approached a sign with large letters that read, "Public Welcome".  In the high season, Bandon is not cheap (although, far more reasonable than other resorts in it's class).  But now that we are in the "low" season, it is a positive bargain.  I grew up playing golf on muni courses with guys getting off the night shift at the auto factory pulling their clubs out of the car trunk for nine holes after the night shift.  I have always bristled at the ridiculous idea that golf is just a play thing of the rich.  However, when I go to places like Whistling Straits or TPC Sawgrass (great resorts) my faith can be tested when paired with some silver spoon asshats and their pro shop clothes and overinflated opinions of themselves.  Then I go to Bandon and play with people from different backgrounds who all share a true love of golf.  At Bandon, your bank account won't protect you against sideways rain and a three club wind.  In fact, if youre out there in those conditions when you could afford frozen towels in Palm Springs, I think were going to enjoy a round together.....

Thanks for your post Ted–a great extrapolation of my original thread starter. There's more to creating the feeling of playing in Ireland and Scotland than simply choosing the right type of grass for your course. Apart from places like St. Andrews and Muirfield the golf I have played in these countries, private and public seemed to be concentrate very little on status etc. but more about the joy of the shared experience battling the course and the elements... not always in that order. I think Bandon has attempted to recreate that purpose by deliberately excluding most of the ways in which people with money might display that within the grounds... beyond the car they park in the lot.

A couple of my fellow residents in Concord, MA just returned from a trip to Bandon. Two of them could be fairly described as 'asshats'. They loved the experience. So the place must be a good influence.

[Mike_Young]

It's not my intention to start a class warfare debate here.  I will simply ask the question who is more dependent on who?  The working person on the buisness owner for a job or the buisness owner on their employees for a buisness?  I think my opinion is clear.  Those of us with strong opinions on either side of this debate are not likely to have our respective viewpoints changed.  This topic echos our current national debate on tax cuts for the wealthy- I simply want to challenge the idea that those who work for a living are dependent on the wealthy for their station in life.  I believe it to be the other way around.  Folks- please- lets try to avoid a flurry of posts attacking each others positions- I appreciate those who disagree with my position
[/quote]

IMHO the working person is more dependent.....that is not meant to belittle the employee side of things but it is proven everyday in this country by employers that if the employee doesn't like the deal then the employer will go offshore....the people I really feel for are the union leaders...

[George Pazin]

It's not my intention to start a class warfare debate here.  I will simply ask the question who is more dependent on who?  The working person on the buisness owner for a job or the buisness owner on their employees for a buisness?  I think my opinion is clear.  Those of us with strong opinions on either side of this debate are not likely to have our respective viewpoints changed.  This topic echos our current national debate on tax cuts for the wealthy- I simply want to challenge the idea that those who work for a living are dependent on the wealthy for their station in life.  I believe it to be the other way around.  Folks- please- lets try to avoid a flurry of posts attacking each others positions- I appreciate those who disagree with my position

IMHO the working person is more dependent.....that is not meant to belittle the employee side of things but it is proven everyday in this country by employers that if the employee doesn't like the deal then the employer will go offshore....the people I really feel for are the union leaders...
[/quote]

I know you are partly kidding, but the reason I posted above is that I believe Ted's position illustrates an implicit assumption that is erroneous (and Adam Smith and the free market ideologues understand this!).

Under a free market capitalist system, for anything to work, the agreement requires consent from both parties. Every other system - socialism, Marxism, communism, "state capitalism", whatever you want to call it - imposes varying degrees of force into each and every transaction. Thus, only free market capitalism requires the mutual consent that is being euphemistically called "enlightened capitalism" in this thread, and concomitant to this is the interdependency that invalidates Ted's question. (Those of us who have survived in the real world of business have always understood this and simply called it win/win. Every transaction must be win/win to survive long term, whether it is between two businesses, or an owner and his workers, or whatever.)

[Jeff Taylor]

Thank you George. The principle of offer and acceptance (a true free market) destroys the "capitalist riding roughshod" analogy completely.

[Ted Cahill]

Folks should find the following article illuminating when considering the various forces (market, government) that contribute to Bandon Dunes bottom line.  It would appear those who park their cars at Wal Mart are helping pick up the tab for those who arrive at Bandon in their private jet... I wonder what Adam Smith would think?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/15/business/15subsidy.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=bandon%20dunes&st=cse

[Scott Weersing]

I will glean a better sense of this thread after I get back from Bandon next February.

Perhaps Mr. Keiser's real strength was to go out and hire very very capable people and ALLOW them to do their best work without interference.  He could have turned the Bandon Resort into the Oregon version of Disney Land or Disney World, but choose not to.

I believe the H. McKee was a key person in the development of Bandon Dunes. He established a strong foundation in which to build five courses. I am still surprised that the resort has not added features to make it more attractive to visitors but these same things would make it into a golf resort rather than "golf as it was meant to be". For example, Bandon Dunes would not be the same with a spa, pool, tennis courts, convention center, David Leadbetter golf academy, beach club, golf carts, island greens, shopping village, hair salon, etc. If I want all of those things, then I will go to Kiawah or a resort in Florida.

[George Pazin]

Folks should find the following article illuminating when considering the various forces (market, government) that contribute to Bandon Dunes bottom line.  It would appear those who park their cars at Wal Mart are helping pick up the tab for those who arrive at Bandon in their private jet... I wonder what Adam Smith would think?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/15/business/15subsidy.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=bandon%20dunes&st=cse

Adam Smith would likely point out that taxpayer subsidies are not examples of free market capitalism, but rather the sort of government influenced "state capitalism" that lefties generally favor...

[Ted Cahill]

Folks should find the following article illuminating when considering the various forces (market, government) that contribute to Bandon Dunes bottom line.  It would appear those who park their cars at Wal Mart are helping pick up the tab for those who arrive at Bandon in their private jet... I wonder what Adam Smith would think?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/15/business/15subsidy.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=bandon%20dunes&st=cse

Adam Smith would likely point out that taxpayer subsidies are not examples of free market capitalism, but rather the sort of government influenced "state capitalism" that lefties generally favor...

I would agree with that assesment.  This lefite does favor state capitalisim- I believe the best outcome occurs as a result of the push/pull tension of private, profit motive endeavors that must meet common good/government established regulations.  Currently, the taxpayer subsidies of mostly private jets at Coos airport are a far cry from that ideal.  Having talked with one airport employee on my last visit to Coos airport (on United)- I know the goal of local officials and BDR folks is to expand the airport so more large planes can land there and provide easier/cheaper options for golfers to visit Bandon.  Public dollars being used to expand public infrastructure (i would imagine union jobs to expand the airport) so that more middle class golfers can enjoy Bandon Dunes?  Thats socialism that this leftie/golf enthusiast can love!  I would like to think this is stimulus spending our conservative friends here at GCA could quietly give a thumbs up to, as well.   

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