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TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2010, 05:20:02 PM »
I'll check again but I think the Drexel documents specify in detail from CBM to Horatio that the swale in the 2nd green was to be CBM's first attempt at replicating in America the swale in the 16th green at NB. CBM said to Horatio that it would be one aspect of the Biarritz principle. Then Horatio reminded Charlie that they had done the 17th green as a form of Biarritz replication because he told them to and Charlie let out a classic profanity and said that Merion should then call the second hole at the East "North Berwick" if the 17th was going to be called their Biarritz. I don't believe Merion ever actually called either hole those names so I figure perhaps Horatio forgot to tell Hugh what Charlie told him. It appears it may've slipped Horatio's mind as he was in the midst of recapitalizing Holland or Belgium at that point----I can't remember which right now off the top of my head.

Be sure to tell Tom MacWood that this is some of the best, the finest, some of the deepest and most interesting "Independent" research ever done on golf course architecture.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2010, 05:21:39 PM »
Is it possible that AWT's significant swale on # 13 at Somerset Hills was influenced by Merion, or, were they both influenced by another "single" green ?

Or, does the presence of a swale mean that CBM designed Somerset Hills?  If I go and build a green with a swale in my backyard does that necessarily mean, or is it an "obvious reason" that CBM was deeply involved in the design process? 

It doesn't mean that he didn't influence you.

While you built it, CBM might have influenced the design.

With # 13 at SHGC being highly constructed, it didn't come into existance by simply mowing the grass.


David M,

"We" don't know he was deeply involved in the design process.  Some may think he was, others don't.  I don't think it is healthy to project our opinions as consensus knowledge.  That may be why it is difficult for you to suggest some things about Merion.

On to the substance, thanks for pointing out that information regarding #6, I found it to be very informative and I hadn't looked at the course in that way before.  Assuming arguendo that you are correct and that CBM was more involved in the design process that we think.  What do you see as Wilson's role?  Was he simply the construction guy?  If so, should his name be removed from the "by line" or should he have to share it?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2010, 05:38:15 PM »

David M,

"We" don't know he was deeply involved in the design process.  Some may think he was, others don't.  I don't think it is healthy to project our opinions as consensus knowledge.  That may be why it is difficult for you to suggest some things about Merion.



JC,

We know that he was involved every step of the way so the only "opinion" being projected is the definition of deep.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2010, 05:40:42 PM »
Pat,

I completely agree that it doesn't mean that CBM designed it.

AND, I completely agree that it may mean the designer was influenced by CBM's work (as opposed to CBM taking the active role of influencer).

I will also say that it could mean that the designer was influenced by a swale in the middle of the green at some course in the UK (did AWT ever travel to the UK)?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2010, 05:43:49 PM »
JC Jones.  Actually those of who are at all familiar with the source material do know that CBM was deeply involved in the design process, from the time he was brought in to inspect the property to determine if it would be suitable, through his spring meeting with Wilson and Committee at NGLA where they were working on the layout, and right up until a few weeks later, when CBM and HJW returned to Merion  to determine the final routing plan.
 
In fact, TEPaul has even acknowledged that CBM had routed the golf course before Wilson and his committee even became involved.

As for Wilson's role, while TEPaul apparently now thinks it was just to construct the course and grow grass, I think it was much more than that.  For one thing he was in contact with CBM for the beginning of Wilson's involvement in 1911, and he spent two days with CBM and Whigham at NGLA working on the plan and going over NGLA holes, and upon his return he and the committee tried to work out the details on the ground and apparently came up with a number of variations, and obviously there could have been quite a bit of design input during this process.  

Plus, Merion is unlike many of the other projects with which CBM was involved in that CBM or Raynor was not directly involved in building the course, and I assume that quite a few design elements were the responsibility of Wilson and his committee.  In other words, I view much of the course at Merion to be Wilson's interpretation of CBM's ideas, and so Wilson certain deserves a large part of the credit for what was done, perhaps even moreso that the credit Raynor gets for the work he did with CBM.  

Plus, at least some of the fairway bunkering was placed by Wilson (CBM was a believer in observing play before placing non-greenside bunkering) and Wilson did go abroad after the course was built in order to get ideas for the finishing touches.   Also, Merion went through a series of changes from very early on, and Wilson appears to have been largely responsible for those changes, including the major changes in the early 1920's to the 10th-13th holes, and perhaps even for the bunker project that was not completed until after his death.  

IN short, Wilson was the person in the main at Merion who was primarily responsible for the golf course, including the architectural changes to the course through its first few decades and he deserves credit for all of that.

As for the "by line" that is up to the club.   My concern is more with what actually happened than with the politics of who gets their name on the scorecard.   That said, those who are interested in the history and evolution of golf course architecture in the United States ought to understand that at its bones Merion was originally intended to be very much in the CBM mold, as interpreted and built by Hugh Wilson and others, of course.

As an aside, those such as when Robert Lesley and Alan Wilson who wrote about the course, such as when Lesley saw fit to acknowledge CBM and HJW right there with Wilson's committee.  

_______________________________

What of the reports that most of Merion holes were based upon holes abroad, and the reports that there was an attempt at a Redan and Alps hole, and attempt at an Eden green?   Were there a million reasons why  Hugh Wilson was trying to build the same hole types as built by CBM? 

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2010, 05:51:17 PM »
"Or, does the presence of a swale mean that CBM designed Somerset Hills?  If I go and build a green with a swale in my backyard does that necessarily mean, or is it an "obvious reason" that CBM was deeply involved in the design process?"


JC:

Absolutely YES to all. Everything in American architecture is attributable to the influence of CBM somehow. This is what David Moriarty has taught us all and the world of golf architecture through incredibly dedicated and "verifiably provable" "independent" researh, and Tom MacWood "hepped." Haven't you been paying attention in the last seven years?  Furthermore they have "verifiably" proven beyond all doubt that many to most significanct club history books are works of fiction, fantasy and iconizations of architectural "Homeys."


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2010, 05:59:48 PM »
TEPaul

I find the sarcasm in your last two posts to be insulting and not aimed at productive discussion and I'd like you to delete them.

Thanks.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2010, 06:10:24 PM »
David M,

Thanks for your response.  I found it very informative.  Forgive me for not having sifted through all the Merion threads, I was under the assumption that there was still strong disagreement as to whether CBM had any or any significant role at all. 

I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2010, 06:32:03 PM »
Sarcasm?

Insulting??

My Goodness! What I view as humor, you view as sarcasm and insulting. Whatever are we to do??

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2010, 08:19:21 PM »
Pat,

I completely agree that it doesn't mean that CBM designed it.

AND, I completely agree that it may mean the designer was influenced by CBM's work (as opposed to CBM taking the active role of influencer).

I will also say that it could mean that the designer was influenced by a swale in the middle of the green at some course in the UK (did AWT ever travel to the UK)?

Yes Tilly did travel to the UK, and he also was partners with the Peter Lees (and George Low) during the period Somerset Hills was designed. Lees first American project was building Lido for CBM.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2010, 10:07:09 PM »
David M,

Thanks for your response.  I found it very informative.  Forgive me for not having sifted through all the Merion threads, I was under the assumption that there was still strong disagreement as to whether CBM had any or any significant role at all. 



I don't blame you or anyone else for not sifting through the Merion threads.   But had you sifted through them you will find that I pretty much avoided drawing inferences about CBM's involvement based on the features of the course itself.   Instead I have focused on his level of involvement. 

As for the 2nd hole, a swale by itself would certainly not justify the inference that CBM was involved. but as I mentioned there is much more than just that one green, and when the all the similar features are examined in the context of CBM's near constant involvement, it becomes harder to dismiss them all as coincidence.   

That said, some significant disagreements still do exist, some reasonable, some less so.  And as you can see there are still those who continue to try and belittle and diminish CBM's contributions at Merion through insults and sarcasm.
________________________________________________

TEPaul wrote:
Quote
My Goodness! What I view as humor, you view as sarcasm and insulting. Whatever are we to do??

We?  Given our past dealings, I have zero tolerance for your "humor" at my expense, and I've already told you I found the posts offensive.  So the question is: Whatever are you going to do? 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2010, 10:18:50 PM »
"Lees first American project was building Lido for CBM.:


JC:

THAT is actually one of the very few and "verifiable provable" things Tom MacWood has said on this website in quite a time! 
 
 

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2010, 10:25:37 PM »
"and when the all the similar features are examined in the context of CBM's near constant involvement, it becomes harder to dismiss them all as coincidence.    

That said, some significant disagreements still do exist, some reasonable, some less so.  And as you can see there are still those who continue to try and belittle and diminish CBM's contributions at Merion through insults and sarcasm."


David:

So you call a documentable two days at Ardmore by Macdonald/Whigam in ten months with a visit from Wilson's committee to NGLA for less than two days constant involvement on CBM's part? That's very interesting. That would be two days at Ardmore over a period of 300 days. I wonder who did the work at Merion Ardmore with the golf course the other 298 days of that timeframe? Do you call that reality insults and sarcasm too? ;)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 10:27:43 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2010, 10:33:06 PM »
"Constant" was a poor choice of word on my part.  I meant to convey that he was involved throughout the planning stage.    So far as I know, no one was constantly working on the course from June 1910 to April 1911, when the plan CBM had chosen was submitted to Merion's Board.  

But you drastically undersell his level of involvement.  

For one thing you neglect to consider the NGLA meeting as part of the planning process, even though both Hugh and Alan Wilson acknowledged that it was.  
For another you neglect to consider that Wilson was in contact with CBM from the time Wilson got involved in the project.   Given Wilson's propensity to ask questions and seek help, it is a fair guess that the contact continued throughout the planning stage.  If fact, from the Ag letters we know that Wilson and CBM were still corresponding even after the Board approved the plan chosen by CBM.
For another you neglect to mention that, according you you, CBM and HGLloyd were working on the routing during the fall of 1910.
For another you neglect to consider that sometime after CBM had mentioned the need for a contour map, but before February 1st, Merion had contour map made, and it seems likely that they would have sent one to CBM.  According to HJ Whigham, CBM was adept at working off of plans.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 10:49:48 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2010, 10:45:01 PM »
"We?  Given our past dealings, I have zero tolerance for your "humor" at my expense, and I've already told you I found the posts offensive.  So the question is: Whatever are you going to do? "





Good question. I suppose the correct answer would be that you might at least try to develop a sense of humor too about most of this stuff, this crap, you've proffered about Merion for a number of years by trying not to take yourself and your fallacious and irrational logic on this subject quite so seriously. If you just look around you may notice that the vast majority of people consider you and your charade with Merion to be a joke which few if any think of as an insult or sarcasm towards you.


Joke versus sarcasm and insult?!? Hmmm, let's weigh those! No, somehow they really don't seem to be synonymous do they?  ;)



On the other hand, what if these recently discovered and remarkable Drexel documents about Horatio Gates Lloyd et al actually confirm your fallaciously logiced and reasoned story, and thereby prove numerous people and years of their concocted iconization of Wilson by Merion et al to be a bunch of bold-faced conspiratorial liars?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2010, 10:49:09 PM »
Quit playing games Tom.   And clean up your act. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2010, 10:52:05 PM »
"Constant" was a poor choice of word on my part."


Yep, I agree with you on that. And if you add that word "constant" as a poor choice of words to the other 5,000 or so words that make up your essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion" and perhaps your 1,500,000 words on posts on this website trying to defend it over the last couple of years I think a sane and rational mind would conclude they might all be considered "poor choice." ;)

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2010, 10:59:04 PM »
"So far as I know,...."


David:

You may want to think about using another qualifier for the things you say on this website, and particularly on subjects like Merion. Do you truly believe anyone still thinks that qualifier you use so often to lead into so many of the things you say and try and foist onto this website as believable has any credibility left? Does that sound like a qualifier that introduces "verifiable fact" or just speculation or perhaps truer still---deception? ;)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 11:02:28 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2010, 11:05:34 PM »
Tom,

You spent a hell of alot of energy this past summer telling me why it was virtually impossible for the Wilson Committee members to have spent any time at all on the golf course from the July 1 time frams up through most of January 1911...not the least of which being that the committee hadn't been formed yet so how could they have done anything...and yet now you're saying they spent 298 days out there between CBM visits...what is that about?

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2010, 11:08:02 PM »
"Given Wilson's propensity to ask questions and seek help, it is a fair guess that the contact continued throughout the planning stage."


David:

A 'FAIR GUESS,' huh? Is that the same thing and synonymous with speculation?  Aren't you the same guy who demands everyone else produce supportable facts before they mention something and try to discuss it on here?  ::) ;)

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2010, 11:18:14 PM »
"Tom,
You spent a hell of alot of energy this past summer telling me why it was virtually impossible for the Wilson Committee members to have spent any time at all on the golf course from the July 1 time frams up through most of January 1911...not the least of which being that the committee hadn't been formed yet so how could they have done anything...and yet now you're saying they spent 298 days out there between CBM visits...what is that about?"




It's actually remarkably simple and transparent Young Sully, and this kind of revelation happens when one is really good at "independent" research like Tom MacWood and David Moriarty are, and apparently I am too now. I found the so-called "Drexel documents" which virtually prove that for some damn reason the entire five man Wilson Committee and a number of other people from MCC who could be considered those "financial types" for some damn reason took to regularly walking their dogs all over the Johnson Farm and the surrounding 228 acres of the HDC holdings from July 1, 1910 until a fairly identifiable day in the beginning of January, 1911.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2010, 11:24:48 PM »
TEPaul,  

Even more personal attacks and insults?   I thought you wanted such posts removed yet here you are creating more and more by the minute.   Oh well.   By the way, putting a smiley face at the end of your posts does not make the any less insulting or inappropriate.  

Rather than lashing back or speculating why you have become so nasty this evening, I think I'll just try to ignore most of them.     I do want to address one thing though, something you have brought up before which drastically misstates my take on al of this.    

A few insults ago, you wrote:

Quote
On the other hand, what if these recently discovered and remarkable Drexel documents about Horatio Gates Lloyd et al actually confirm your fallaciously logiced and reasoned story, and thereby prove numerous people and years of their concocted iconization of Wilson by Merion et al to be a bunch of bold-faced conspiratorial liars?

If these documents actually do exist, then I seriously doubt they "prove numerous people and years of their concocted iconization of Wilson by Merion et al to be a bunch of bold-faced conspiratorial liars."    I've never thought or alleged any such a thing.  Those who were there told it like it was, and all those in a position to know acknowledge CBM and HJW.   And surely somewhere along the line the wires just got crossed up a little bit.  We all make mistakes.  

And if the documents don't exist?  Well hopefully that isn't the case.   But if on the off chance this is all part of some convoluted and cynical deception on your part, then what?   What was it you were saying again about finding "bold-faced conspiratorial liars?"
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2010, 11:41:24 PM »
David:

I am terribly sorry that you seem to take as personal insults and sarcasm all the things I say to you that I believe to be humor, even if occasionally ironical humor.

Please specify for me, and word for word, if you please, all those things I have said to you recently that you feel are peronally insulting to you and I will gladly delete them.

And I am also sorry about my use of emoticons (smileys). I will try to be sure that doesn't happen again in any responses or communications with you; just a bad habit, I guess.

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2010, 11:54:23 PM »
"And surely somewhere along the line the wires just got crossed up a little bit.  We all make mistakes."


David:

I am totally unclear what you mean by that. I think we all know the story of Merion East and who designed it going back to the beginning at Ardmore. Everyone said right from the beginning that Wilson and his committee did it. These Drexel documents seem to be proving it was all a farce, a lie, a concocted story because they are showing in detail that Macdonald basically did it all----eg he had total involvement; he routed and designed the course and all its architectural principles and even the names behind all the holes. He was in fact the driving force behind it and in fact the golf course's architect.

So, what do you mean 'surely somewhere along the line the wires just got crossed up a little bit. We all make mistakes?"

Doesn't this sound like a total and full-blown conspiracy to attribute the architecture to someone who does not deserve it and to massively minimize someone who does deserve it?   


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green? New
« Reply #74 on: December 10, 2010, 12:36:44 AM »
Please specify for me, and word for word, if you please, all those things I have said to you recently that you feel are peronally insulting to you and I will gladly delete them.

Don't bother deleting anything.  If you can't even figure out what is insulting about this line of posts, then it would be a waste of my time to go through it.  

Quote
I am totally unclear what you mean by that. I think we all know the story of Merion East and who designed it going back to the beginning at Ardmore. Everyone said right from the beginning that Wilson and his committee did it. These Drexel documents seem to be proving it was all a farce, a lie, a concocted story because they are showing in detail that Macdonald basically did it all----eg he had total involvement; he routed and designed the course and all its architectural principles and even the names behind all the holes. He was in fact the driving force behind it and in fact the golf course's architect.

I don't know what you mean, Tom, because I haven't seen this material, if it exists.  And frankly it seems like you are playing games.  If you are, you have gone way too far, and you need to stop.

Whether or not the rest is b.s., I disagree with you about whether "everyone said right from the beginning that Wilson and his committee designed the course."   So far as I know, Wilson never said he designed the course.   Lesley didn't say Wilson designed the course.  Not even Alan Wilson said it.    
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 12:41:50 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)