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mike_malone

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Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« on: December 07, 2010, 10:05:43 PM »
  The show  showed Jones in play at the Amateur. On one hole he was , presumably, putting on what was clearly a hole with a depression like a double plateau green. Either this is just artistic license or there was a hole there that has changed.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 10:29:34 PM by mike_malone »
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DMoriarty

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2010, 10:11:44 PM »
Quote from: mike_malone on December 07, 2010, 10:05:43 PM
 The show presumably showed Jones in play at the Amateur. On one hole he was putting on what was clearly a hole with a depression like a double plateau green. Either this is just artistic license or there was a hole there that has changed.

Fourteen.

Also, the second originally had a swale across the middle, but sideways, like a Biarritz green.   This was changed though by Flynn when he lengthened the hole and moved the green to the left.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 10:14:23 PM by DMoriarty »
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JESII

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2010, 10:14:34 PM »
Moriarty by a nose.

Mike, when you say "presumably" what do you mean?
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mike_malone

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2010, 10:18:37 PM »
 I say"  presumably " because sometimes these shows are edited with footage from other places that only wackos like gcaers notice. I saw a picture in a travel magazine that stated it was a hole on a certain course in Ireland when I knew it was another course.
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mike_malone

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2010, 10:23:15 PM »
 I've been told by a good source that it was the old #2 green and that Flynn lengthened the hole.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 10:25:34 PM by mike_malone »
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JESII

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2010, 10:24:26 PM »
OK...WTF?
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mike_malone

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2010, 10:27:35 PM »
 Sorry, Jim but I doubt everything I see. Since I was sure there is no green like that today at Merion I wondered whether it had been changed or the filming was fudged. I moved "presumably" to be clearer.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 10:31:04 PM by mike_malone »
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Dean DiBerardino

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2010, 10:39:13 PM »
Could it have been the clip of his final putt at the US Open at Interlachen?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 10:10:29 AM by Dean DiBerardino »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2010, 10:41:53 PM »
Mike,

Wouldn't that NLE plateau/double plateau be more evidence of CBM's influence at Merion ?
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mike_malone

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2010, 10:46:02 PM »
 Pat,

   Are you trying to ruin my holiday spirit?
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JESII

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2010, 10:48:41 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on December 07, 2010, 10:41:53 PM
Mike,

Wouldn't that NLE plateau/double plateau be more evidence of CBM's influence at Merion ?

Presumably...
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mike_malone

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2010, 10:54:38 PM »
 Now THAT'S funny.
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mike_malone

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2010, 10:57:44 PM »
 The swale on #14 was along the line of play according to my source. The image I saw  on tv showed the swale running from right to left across the green.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 11:00:10 PM by mike_malone »
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DMoriarty

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2010, 11:07:57 PM »
Mike, something tells me I am not your reliable source.   But I think I wrote the same thing in the first response above.

One might argue that both greens (the 14th and the 2nd) evidence CBM's involvement.
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

mike_malone

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2010, 11:10:44 PM »
 David,

    I saw what you wrote but since I don't have the knowledge to respond I just passed along what I was told. I'm just a mule. The only reason I'm still up is to watch the Philly guys play for Syracuse.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 11:14:33 PM by mike_malone »
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2010, 11:13:11 PM »
So, was this Flynn guy a hack?
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DMoriarty

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2010, 11:14:30 PM »
In 1916 the Brooklyn Daily Eagle described the 2nd green as follows:   "The green is like the sixth at Sleepy Hollow, with a depression running across the middle of it."

Anyone know who designed Sleepy Hollow? ::)

 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 11:20:54 PM by DMoriarty »
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2010, 11:39:55 PM »
Wow, OK, so this makes sense.  Macdonald was there at some point.  Now I realize that the green at #6 is really a Road Hole rendition.  Cool!
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David_Elvins

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2010, 12:02:01 AM »
Quote from: DMoriarty on December 07, 2010, 11:14:30 PM
Anyone know who designed Sleepy Hollow? ::)

Gil Hanse,  this just got really interesting.
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DMoriarty

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2010, 01:09:32 AM »
Quote from: Chip Gaskins on December 07, 2010, 11:39:55 PM
Wow, OK, so this makes sense.  Macdonald was there at some point.  Now I realize that the green at #6 is really a Road Hole rendition.  Cool!

Chip I am not sure if you are joking or not, but either way here is a description of the 6th (then the 3rd) from the New York Times in 1916:

The 3rd hole is 427 yards, par 4, and the best way to play it is to "cross a fence before you come to it."  In other words the shortest route to the green is across the corner of somebody's corn lot, with an open shot to the green if the carry is made, and a half dozen assorted shots back to the fairway if the ball falls short.  The golfer who plays safe by taking the dog-leg journey to the right toward the green will hardly reach his destination in two strokes, as there is a pit just short of the green directly in his path, and placed there for the express purpose of thwarting his intentions.   
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2010, 09:45:59 AM »
Mayday:

Not all that long ago the historian of Merion found an old motion picture reel of Jones I believe. It had previously been mislabeled but it was of Merion. It's in the Merion archives. You mention this thing you saw shows Jones on a green playing the amateur at Merion. Jones played in three amateurs at Merion. Do you have any idea which one it was that shows what you're talking about? It's important because we certainly do have a complete and detailed chronology of when and how architectural changes were made to Merion over the years, particularly by Wilson, William Flynn and to some extent the Valentines. And as far as I know, none of us, and including the club, has any evidence of architectural involovement from Macdonald and Whigam with Merion after April 6, 1911, even though we do have a letter from Macdonald to Hugh Wilson in June 1911 but it was only about the subject of agronomic concerns.
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mike_malone

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2010, 10:26:01 AM »
 The show was about Jones' year of the slam.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2010, 11:13:26 AM »
Sidney Matthew, the golf historian on the show, kept referring to the golf course at Merion Cricket Club. Was the Merion Golf Club known as the MCC in 1930?

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TEPaul

Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2010, 11:39:54 AM »
Steve:

Merion Golf Club did not come into existence until 1942. The vote to take it separate from MCC was taken on that "day that will live in infamy" (Dec. 7, 1941). The people at that meeting learned of Pearl Harbor's attack by the Japanese when they emerged from their meeting and vote. Rodman Griscom, the same man who was one of the five who served on the Wilson Committee that designed and created Merion East in 1911, was the first president of the new MERION GOLF CLUB.

Before that the courses at Ardmore had operated under the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association (corporation) which owned the courses and leased them to Merion Cricket Club.


Mayday:

If that was the 2nd green you saw Jones on in that tv thing it was probably the original green with the side to side swale in it. The 2nd green was moved farther back and redesigned to what it is today in 1931-2.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 11:41:49 AM by TEPaul »
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mike_malone

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Re: Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2010, 11:46:26 AM »
 Could an American architect of that day have thought to place a swale into a relatively flat putting surface without going to Britain or seeing drawings of overseas courses ?
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