Armchair Architect contest (Mission Hills/Schmidt-Curley)

[Brian Phillips]

I have no qualms, nor does Brian about building this kind of course, you might call it "a load of crap" but we see it as something fun, and something challenging to build that a majority of golfers would love to try.

Absolute Bollocks.

Sustainability.....? 

I thought you were a Landscape Architect...

[Kyle Harris]

I see a punchbowl, redan and biarritz in the making.

[Mac Plumart]

Okay, I am not an architect...I don't aspire to be one...I don't have the appropriate tools, skills, experience, etc...so bear this in mind with my comments and questions.  

From a business perspective, if a client asks for this and really wants it...give it to them.  Right?

BUT, isn't this where leadership takes over?  Doesn't history and human nature tell us that these types of completely artificial looking golf holes won't stand the test of time and will not inspire golfers to get out and play the game?  

Maybe the holes will be novel and fun to play a time or two, but fast forward three years.  If you were a golfer and you had a choice between the course that C&C are building in China (the name escapes me now) and something like this, what are the golfer going to choose?  I think the answer is very evident.  Bear in mind, I am just using these courses as example...one being a natural looking golf course that embodies all the time tested principles of good and lasting golf, the other being novel ideas.  Again, time seems to have told us that the novel ideas fade in interest, while the other simply seems to grow in interest.

So, as architects...when you see something like this, don't you have to provide leadership and try to steer them away from something like this?  

Or am I an idiot who doesn't know jack s**t because I have no experience in the industry?

I probably already know the answer.  

[Tim Nugent]

Mac, as with most delemma's, there is probably no hard and fast answer.  On one hand, should we discourage something that someone else thinks will work based on our own bias?  But on the other hand, architects tend to like puzzles and figuring out how to make and idea(no matter how crazy) come to fruition.  It's intellectually stimulating.  The only question I would have, especially seeing the creative examples Brian came up with is Why solicit ideas from the peanut gallery?  It seems it takes something away if the architect needs outside help from amatuers.
You also have to look at the customer.  Is China, being a newby on the golf stage and not as steeped in tradition, somewhere that an idea such as this may work. for them?  I wouldn't mind trying to put it together, but then I don't have the imagination to see a sports arena as of green, or chop sticks as bunkers

[Mike Nuzzo]

Tim
How did this come about?
Cheers

[Derek Dirksen]

I don't think the gallary quite understands how golf works over here in Asia.  There are many examples of owners wanting it their way and architects either put up with it or pull off the job.  You guys would flip out if you saw half the courses in Korea.  Its just rediculous.  I would love to see a Doak or CC come to Korea.  The general contractors here in Korea for the most part just wont listen to architects and many times totally control the job site.  China is quite a bit better than Korea.

[Mac Plumart]

Derek...

Do you think the type of things you mention (and have been touched on in this thread) will hurt the game in Asia over the long term?  That is the growth of the game, the appeal of the game, and people interest in playing the game.

[Derek Dirksen]

I don't think it will hurt the game over here.  Its a totally different type of golf.  In Korea golf is like a day get away for a lot of golfers.  Eat, golf, then a hot sauna at the club after.  The game is still growing over here and I don't see anyof this type of stuff hurting that growth at all.  Everything is just a litte bit different over here.  Design wise Koreans like lots of eye candy.  Lots of water, lots of bunkers, huge greens with little contour. 

[Mac Plumart]

I got to tell you, the way different cultures assimilate the game of golf amazes me.

Although I haven't been to Scotland yet (5 months and counting until my first trip), it seems to be the cornerstone of their societies.  It seems like every neighborhood has a course and all play the game or talk about the game.

America seems to have a lot more private clubs and that adds a layer to the mix.  Club life, high society, etc...in addition to the plain and simple game of golf.

And, Derek, these thoughts you've shared on Korean/Asian golf seem to take the "experience" to a whole new level. 

Very interseting to me.  Makes me want to do a whole heck of a lot more travel to experience how others view golf, the game and the experience.

Thanks!

[Ryan Farrow]

Just a quick update here.... we received the first batch of submissions for the contest... There were quite a few interesting entries and a few really good ones but I encourage anyone on the board or those lurking that the door is still wide open. The deadline for submission is April 30th.   

[Brian Curley]

Just took a look at the entries so far and many are very good. It is going to be a fun and exciting design/build and we forward to the challenge. I encourage those sitting on the fence to send in an entry. I honestly believe the course will be VERY popular and even the purists will have a strong itch to hit some of these shots...... you  don't have a pulse if not

It may not be everyone's cup of tee but in a 12 course deal ( ten are done) , the desire for and acceptance of variety  is different. I have been thinking that this should not be marketed as  a golf course but as a "golf experience"..........full-size mini-golf. The cool thing is that it is in the flight path as you land in Haikou so the images will be seen from above as well. The wild ones are the best so far. My take is that they need to read from the ground level  as the golfer sees them, they need to be able to be built , and they should be able to be maintained without too much difficulty. And, despite the initial images we did, they do not need to say "China"............you can do anything. Have fun.

[Ryan Farrow]

Guys, were seriously going to build your design !!!!! Despite the fantasty golf hole name, this is not in fantasy land like most armchair architecture contest.

Not to mention you get to bring along 3 of your mates to a golf trip in China. And there is a Coore & Crenshaw course within driving distance!

[Buck Wolter]

Ho hum Brian Curley with his first post and no reaction -- I guess that's better than I expected as I figured he'd be chased off like Lehman and Engh by now.

It looks like the contest ran through Feb. Is it closed now?

I appreciate Ryan's insights on GCA in China and hope Brian will add on his  experiences in what we can expect as China becomes a more important factor in world golf.

My entry would be called 'Dim sum served on a lazy Suzan'

[MikeJones]

Some of the responses in this thread are simply unbelievable and it's no wonder that many architects shun this site as they perceive many of the frequent posters to be narrow minded.

No one likes traditional golf more than me, my home course was an early Mackenzie course and I grew up playing links golf at such courses at Hoylake, Birkdale S&A etc but why do some people here think there is no room for anything radically different? When the 17th at Sawgrass was first built it was ridiculed by many and yet few can deny that it's a dramatic hole and is etched in the minds of many of the worlds golfers as something exciting and different.

I played a game of crazy golf a few months ago with some friends and it was a fun experience, the fact that I played El Saler a few days later didn't take away from the fun I had trying to get the ball up the pyramid into a 3/4 size hole

[Kris Shreiner]

Brian,

Welcome to GCA and thanks for the encouragement. I actually had started on a hole to submit, but thought I missed the deadline. I'll get back on it. A question if I may. As I am not a great artist, some features of a hole would be best conveyed with both an overhead and side view. Is that 0.K.?

Cheers,
Kris

[Ryan Farrow]

Kris, its all about whether you have a unique idea and how you can turn it into a working golf hole that shows when you are actually playing the hole....  your artistic abilities are not too important...  Overheard and side views are fine.


To anyone else who wants to enter, you have until the end of the April to submit.

Winner receives airfare, hotel, and greens fees to Mission Hills Haikou for themselves and 3 friends.

http://missionhillschina.com/contest/fantasygolfhole/index.aspx

[Ryan Farrow]

Heres a preview of the Golf (10 courses), hopefully this will stir up some interest to enter:



























*Hopefully Kelly is not offended by this!

[David Harshbarger]

Ryan,

Who is this course being marketed to primarily?  Is it the Chinese, or a regional Asian wealthy golfer, or someone else?

Thanks, Dave

[Ryan Farrow]

David,

the resort caters mostly to guests from mainland China... there are also quite a bit of Korean visitors at the resort and a few Australians here and there. Saying that, most of the staff speaks English, caddies know all of the golf terms, and all signage is in English/Chinese.

[David Harshbarger]

Ryan,

Thanks.  I have a concept that I'd like to submit, but my artistic skills topped out at Pictionary.  Will chicken scratch and a scanner be acceptable? (Please say yes 'cause I think I have a winner

BTW,  I think this is a great concept.  There's room for lots of approaches to building golf course.  I once played a Disney course and remember how much fun it was to hit to the Mickey Mouse shaped green.  Sure it was a little corny, but was fun.  So I agree with your prognostication, the Icon course will be VERY popular!

Best, Dave

[David Harshbarger]

GCAers, deadlines fast approaching.  I know I've been driving my work mates crazy with drawings on the board for this contest.  I have 3 entries in and a couple more in development.

Quick survey, who else is in?

[David Harshbarger]

OK Ryan, here's a bump....

Even if no one else is paying attention, I have been working feverishly in my non-architect way to win a free trip to China and to be forever immortalized in sand and grass.

I've got seven designs submitted with one to go.  They include *2* attempts to make a dragon interesting.  They are:

To The Moon
Dragon vs. Tiger
Dragon and Tiger
Mirage
Heavy Seas/Tsunami
Waterfall
Machu Picchu
Picasso (in development)

And at the risk of being a suck-up, having spent some time digging into what Schmidt-Curley are doing and are all about, I really believe they deserve the best options they can get for this course.  At the risk of never seeing China, I encourage anyone on GCA to scribble something on a napkin and send it in.  Schmidt-Curley are, after all, going to put their name on some concept submitted by an amateur.  I think they deserve the best options we can give them.

Ryan,  I'd love to post my designs here for review.  Do you all have an opinion on whether that is appropriate?

Dave

[Charlie Goerges]

This is a very interesting and fun contest for all the armchair archies out there. It's very different from the one we've put on "in-house" here on GCA the last couple of years (in a good way) and blessedly different from the tired one put on by the Mackenzie Society.

I only wish my head was not so far up my ass lately that I had the time and energy to participate.

[David Harshbarger]

Ryan, here's another bump....

When the contest closes are you going to make the entries available online?  The submission site kind of implied that ("your submission will not be available until approved by the moderator"), but I couldn't find anything to indicate where they might be visible.

Dave

[David Harshbarger]

Contest entries are in, so here's one of the first ones I did.  I'd love to have comments on this.

It's called Mirage.  It's a simple concept that plays on one of the more under-appreciated qualities that contribute to really golf courses, tricks on perception.



PAR 3 – Mirage

Inspiration – This hole’s inspiration is the desert mirage.  Sand is fundamental element of golf, and while the traditional inspirations are coastal sand dunes, for this hole, we look instead to the vast sand expanses of the desert, and distant mirages that beguile the wayward with promise of water.

Golf Experience – This hole is meant to provide a visual respite, if you call looking out over an unending see of sand.  From the tee, the player is challenged with a see of dunes encroaching on the fairway from immediately in front of the tee, eventually swallowing up the fairway 30 or 40 yards in front of the tees.

From then on to the horizon there are no other features besides a series of dunes, with one exception.  In the far distance, surrounded by sand, the pin rises out of a thin blue line of water.

The tee shot is played over the sand, but the landing and final position is not visible from the tee. Successful shots over the sand appear to drop into the water (sans splash).

Heading to the green the illusion is revealed.  The bunkers that make up the dunes are revealed as bunkers with highly flashed sand faces dotting the fairway.  Reaching the green, it’s revealed that there’s a normal green with a 20 yard swale in front of it.  The illusion of the water is revealed to be a small lake behind the green, with an infinity edge over which water pours.

The green itself is a deep (30-40 yd), rectangular two tiered green with a spine bisecting the lower half, a slight rise to the upper half, drop offs to the side back left and right, and a slight lip far back.

Shots that miss the green left or right drop to a chipping area below the green.

Other than dealing with the challenge with the illusion on the tee, the hole is not meant to be overly penal.  The green should be fun, with rolls and contours in addition to the spine and tiers.  Overall the hole should play about 120 to the end of the sand, 140 to the edge of the green, and 170-180 to the back of the green.