Great Holes - describe (please :-))

[LeeHarris]

I am sure this is one of those threads that come up all the time, but please bear with me.

It can be intimidating at times because questions get asked and replies can sometimes be a bit frosty and assuming that the questioner is an expert in this subject himself, which he often isnt!

I am not claiming any expert knowledge
I dont play golf often, due to financial, but mainly work/time related reasons. I do not live in the US and I will almost certainly never tee it up on the great courses that some here discuss as though it were all in a days work :-)

But I am still interested in reading about GCA, seeing pictures, and learning about it. I do play computer games for golf sims but that IMHO doesnt mean I am not allowed to have an interest in real GCA.


I would really like to see some threads on the great holes in golf and what makes them great, in terms of their 2d strategy (examination of the layout from an aerial say) but also including 3d factors, plus scenery, surroundings and the 'X factor.

Wouldnt anyone be interested in discussing some of their favourite holes, why they like the holes so much, and give an overview of how the hole is layed out and how that governs the strategy, including some technical details relating to yardages, bunker sizes & depths, green dimensions and slopes etc

I would really love to see that - enjoyed the stuff on this site immensely on those pages discussing "types" of hole, but would love to read more on specific examples in as much detail as possible.

[A_Clay_Man]

Lee- I think that by definition an aerial is a poor analytical tool, at least until some of us pigs can fly.
While you may be able to see where the routing may be screwy or a certain bunkers shape and placement is cool or off, there is something individualistic and spiritual in the playing of a hole, especially those that just feel right. I can also sight light and weather conditions as making the majority of the experience memeorable and enjoyable, sorta like aroma therapy.

[Slag_Bandoon]

16th at Bandoon Dunes. (Being modified for drive run-out once again, amongst others...(1 and 18.))  
  Perplexing and beautiful and with tragic results (scorewise but not ponderwise.)
  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Lee, Believe it or not, you live near some of the greatest courses in the world and if you can't play them then for heavens sake get out there and study them!

{I say this because right now Virgin Atlantic has a deal from LA to Heathrow for $149.00 each way and I have visions of sugar plump fairies dancing in my head)

($300.00 to London and golf with Russell Talley or one round at Pebble?)

(Russell, tell Rachel Ward I'm on my way!)

Shivas suggestion of Rye would be a great one. I can't beginto tell you how much I would enjoy sitting down at the computer playing "The Sandy Parlour" or the orignal "Maiden" at RSG, then dealing with this website for another straight night!:)

Get on the train and get down to Westward Ho! and make sell your computer creations to Ran! there is money to be made there! Better yet, get in you auto and get over to Northwood and get me some pictures of "Death and Glory!" (Just another great hole in England's green and pleasant land.)

[Paul Turner]

Tommy

I think "Death or Glory" might have bitten the dust

Here's an extract from Peter Allen's "Play the Best Courses":

"Northwood... had always appealed to me if only that it had one of the toughest and most uncompromising holes in all golf.  Well, alas, the glory has departed from the 10th, "Death or Glory", at Norwood, though they have left themselves with a difficult enough drive-and-pitch hole, we could all appreciate this if we did not remember the deep cavernous bunker with its dark sleepered black-avised face, over which we used to have to pitch while evading the equally deep sleepered bunker eating into the left side of the green, while the right side was protected by a bank with furze".

What a hole to restore!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Paul, You have just stuck the knife of doom into my heart.

This is a golf hole that I feel needed to be studied and emulated for the ages! From Darwin and Roundtrees desrciption  (In both print and watercolor) It was exactly as Peter Allen described. The fairway sort of melted into the bunker and then even further the sleepers wreeked a formidable foe.

Absolutely not one regard for phenominal golf architecture!

[Paul Turner]

Here's Harry Rountree's painting of old "Death or Glory".  With some poor geezer needing a hand to get out!

R.I.P

[Ron_Whitten]

Lee -  I'll offer a great hole: the 10th at Scioto in Columbus, Ohio, a Donald Ross design, where Jack Nicklaus learned the game. On paper, it's a straightaway par 4 of around 400 yards, maximum, probably 30 yards less from where I played it last year. Just one fairway bunker over on the right.

The genius of the hole was in its topography. It plays  up and over a knob of a hill,  with a fairway that cants left to right.  From the left side of the fairway, a typical drive ends up blind from the green. (You can't drive it far enough to clear the hill. Well, Tiger could, but club members can't.)  From the right side of the fairway, because of the slope of the hill, you can see part of the green.  So the closer you position your drive next to the fairway bunker, the more visibility into the green.  Simply but effective strategy.  No bells, no whistles, no gorgeous backdrops or splashy bunkers. Doesn't even get much mention by Scioto members, who favor the uphill 2nd (Dan Jenkins' pick as Best 2nd hole in America back in 1965) or the par-5 8th or the par-3 17th.  But often, the great holes are the simple ones. This, in my opinion, is one of them.

[TEPaul]

Wow! That "Death or Glory hole is something else! At first I thought it was a painting of some workmen on the top of a foundation of a house!

[Paul Daley]

Paul:

Brilliant shot of Rountree's work. I have the original book upstairs, but gee, everyone's so damm busy, you don't get time to whip it out and daydream.

I am struggling to think of any golf book that has as much quality art work contained within.

[Paul Turner]

Paul

Rountree's paintings are the best; I think simply because he usually concentrated on the landscape first.  Often paintings of golf courses look too fussy for my eye, Rountree didn't fall into that trap.

I have the reprint of Darwin's great book with a fantastic afterword by Ben Crenshaw.

As for Northwood.  I'll try and get there one day to see what remains of Death or Glory.  The course might not be all that special, but I just read a review of the course on another site which claims the course has some links style undulation, so it could be interesting!

[Paul Daley]

Paul:

I agree. Others artists fall for the trap of incorporating too much "busyness", which I find unecessary. Most of us don't need to view every single leaf and its arterial system.