[Sean_A]

I think perhaps with these early greens there was a sense of "what could we create if given a free hand" about some of them, like with Colt's St Cloud green that Paul posted. I think after a few of these were built their creators naturally begun toning them down anyway, apart from any golfer backlash as they may have realised they were just too over the top. Lucky they did not have today's green speeds to contend with as well!

Niall
Sorry about posting your comments to me as well, but did so as they seemed a nice summary. And yes, you should be careful what you ask for!

The now first green on the Eden nicely corresponds with the St Cloud one timewise, but that green is a good deal smaller that the St Cloud one looks, but just as undulating. It was hard to leave that 1st green at the Eden, and I expected that they might get even better from there on - but I was a little disappointed as to me that was far and away the best green on the course. As for the 'new' holes - the less said the better.

Neil

Do you think they did have to contend with higher green speeds?  Of course I don't mean in the modern sense, but agronomy had come on leaps and bounds in the first quarter century of the 1900s and I assume maintenance too was getting better.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think perhaps with these early greens there was a sense of "what could we create if given a free hand" about some of them, like with Colt's St Cloud green that Paul posted. I think after a few of these were built their creators naturally begun toning them down anyway, apart from any golfer backlash as they may have realised they were just too over the top. Lucky they did not have today's green speeds to contend with as well!

Niall
Sorry about posting your comments to me as well, but did so as they seemed a nice summary. And yes, you should be careful what you ask for!

The now first green on the Eden nicely corresponds with the St Cloud one timewise, but that green is a good deal smaller that the St Cloud one looks, but just as undulating. It was hard to leave that 1st green at the Eden, and I expected that they might get even better from there on - but I was a little disappointed as to me that was far and away the best green on the course. As for the 'new' holes - the less said the better.

Neil

Do you think they did have to contend with higher green speeds?  Of course I don't mean in the modern sense, but agronomy had come on leaps and bounds in the first quarter century of the 1900s and I assume maintenance too was getting better.

Ciao

Didn't maintenance take a big leap forward in the 20's? Being that the late 20's seems to correlate time-wise with the stories of golfers wanting flatter greens, this may be a good point Sean...

[Paul_Turner]

Ally

But it didn't happen in the US and I think by the 1920s the US was leading in maintenance standards.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally

But it didn't happen in the US and I think by the 1920s the US was leading in maintenance standards.

That's a fair point Paul.

Did it not happen in the US? Even slightly?... I guess probably not when you had huge undulating greens at Augusta et al still to come...

Which big British courses were built in the 30's?... Might be worth seeing if they have flattish greens in common...

[Sean_A]

Ally

But it didn't happen in the US and I think by the 1920s the US was leading in maintenance standards.

Paul

It is my impression that many of the projects (in the hey day) for the big guns in the US were aiming at creating difficult courses.  It would make sense that more undulating greens would be part of that formula.  I don't get this sense at all in the UK as championship golf was closely associated with links - which had far less modern architectural input compared to inland courses.  Plus, the most successful archie in the UK, Colt, didn't really build a lot of character into his greens.  You picked out a few examples, but I don't think these are representative of Colt.  He was willing to experiment, but in the main he stuck with what worked. 

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

I think you're wrong; as Ambrose states, there was a general change from more undulating to less-by most of the UK architects including Colt.  Those early greens of Cloud, Zoute and Eden are representative of Colt pre WW1.

[Niall C]

Tony

You must be the only person I know who takes a photo of a strokesaver !

What I'm suggesting is that the front half of the St Cloud green is similar to the 1st at the Eden. I guess I didn't explain it well first time round. I still think the Eden green is a blinding green though.

Niall

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony

You must be the only person I know who takes a photo of a strokesaver !

Niall

3rd course of 5 in 4 days, you know it makes sense.

[Sean_A]

Sean

I think you're wrong; as Ambrose states, there was a general change from more undulating to less-by most of the UK architects including Colt.  Those early greens of Cloud, Zoute and Eden are representative of Colt pre WW1.

Paul


I don't believe there ever was a preponderance of undulating greens in the UK.  I have seen far more evidence of flatter greens than of undulating greens.  Of course, Ambrose may have had a more liberal idea of of costitues an undulating/contoured green than myself.  Where is all the contour on the greens of Beaconsfield, Camberely Heath, Copt Heath, Edgbaston, Moor Park, Nothamptonshre and Swinley?  For that matter, of the three courses you cited, how many greens are really contoured?  I think it is safer to say that Colt was quite cautious about his greens with some obvious exceptions.  

Ciao

[Paul_Turner]

Sean

Edgbaston was built in 1936.  Moor Park 1923-4 (about the time of the 1925 Ambrose article)   Swinley is early but was tweaked by Colt through the years.  Camberley has one wild green, the 2nd.  Northamptionshire obviously not much there but it has gone through quite  a lot of changes.  Beaconsfield doesn't have a really wild green, the 7th has some large contours.  St George's Hill had some greens that Colt had to tone down. 

There's a handful of strongly contoured greens still at Zoute (it has been changed quite a lot), Cloud has a few strongly side tiered greens like the above 6th green which have since been softened.  Eden: most of the original greens are strongly contoured

Without more old photos it's hard to be sure.  But if you're going to find wild greens in UK and Europe they tend to be from early on.

[Marty Bonnar]

Niall,
here's about the best pic I have of that green. I see what you mean!!



Wish I could photograph it better! It's luvverly.

cheers,
FBD.

[Sean_A]

Sean

Edgbaston was built in 1936.  Moor Park 1923-4 (about the time of the 1925 Ambrose article)   Swinley is early but was tweaked by Colt through the years.  Camberley has one wild green, the 2nd.  Northamptionshire obviously not much there but it has gone through quite  a lot of changes.  Beaconsfield doesn't have a really wild green, the 7th has some large contours.  St George's Hill had some greens that Colt had to tone down.

There's a handful of strongly contoured greens still at Zoute (it has been changed quite a lot), Cloud has a few strongly side tiered greens like the above 6th green which have since been softened.

Without more old photos it's hard to be sure.  But if you're going to find wild greens in UK and Europe they tend to be from early on.

Paul

Yes, that sounds a bit more like it.  Perhaps Ambrose over-stated his case or it was misintrepreted to read like undulating greens were "the" style of the time and it was abruptly stopped.  That said, Huntercombe has a handful of crazy greens, but in the main they are flatish without being in the least boring. I don't know of another Park Jr course with such daring greens.  Fowler too tended to be rather staid with his greens with Beau Desert being the obvious standout - though subsidence had a hand in a few the greens.  Woking is another case in point, though these are far less "crazy" than Huntercombe's and much more modern in their undulations (often unmentioned and somewhat like St Enodoc) - an attribute which well and truly separates Woking from other heathland courses.    

As an aside, do you think Colt's work on the many courses he redid seriously influenced his ideas about green contour?  Additionally, do you think inland courses sort of mimiced links in having mainly straight forward greens with some exceptions?  

Ciao

[Marty Bonnar]

...and then I discovered I got Photostitch with my new Canon DSLR. Yippee!!



Wow....

FBD.

[Paul_Turner]

Here's an early Colt green at Sunningdale (before WW1), the 4th which has since been flattened: I know it's Colt and not Park because that green was moved by Colt to the current position in the photo.  The 13th had a big hogs back in it too.



And Zoute's 18th which I think is an original (it's in the right place at least, was the 5th).  With its false front and rolls, it looks quite similar to that 1st green on the Eden:



Sean

I think they got fed up with the complaints and having to change the greens.  

I think Colt decided it was just easier to go with the land a bit more.  For example, his late 1920s courses in Holland tend to be mild in contour.  And also courses like Whittington.

I'm not sure about the links connection.  The famous English links have less contour in their greens than the famous Scottish links.  That may be down to Colt/Fowler and others doing redo work to the famous English links in the 1920s...without pics or reports I don't know what the greens were like, on those courses before their work.

According to their writing, all these architects loved St Andrews and they started with TOC as their model of the ideal course, but it seems only Mackenzie stuck with it and could do so in America, Australia and Argentina.

Woking as modern in its contouring?  12, 13, 15th?  It looks hand built to me.

[Sean_A]

Paul

You are right, modern contouring is a poor description.  Some of Woking's greens are more like TOC's (but obviously in a scaled down way) with a lot of micro-undulations compared to larger, more bold and sweeping undulations as your photos of old greens depict.  Woking's greens do strike me as quite unique for their place and time period.  What is interesting about Woking's greens is there are still several which are fairly flat with one or two areas of interest.  In other words, Woking's greens are outstanding in their variety.  Especially when compared to Beau Desert whose greens rely much more heavily on general tilt rather than internal contour, but where there is internal contour the reading of the green is far less obvious than at Woking (my one criticism of the contoured greens at Woking are that they tend to be an easy read - 15th excepted).

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Paul,

Thanks for that photo of the 4th at Sunningdale, a green that has obviously changed dramatically (do you see the similarity with MacDonald's horseshoe "short" hole by the way? bearing in mind the line is from the right... he probably put that ridge there for extra visibility too, it being steeply uphill)... In all of this discussion, we've got to question just how many greens were built undulating and then flattened...  There will be plenty we don't know of... Many of our great courses have gone through so much tweaking by greens committees etc. that we haven't been able to keep track of it all, especially the early tweaking pre-world war 2

[Niall C]

...and then I discovered I got Photostitch with my new Canon DSLR. Yippee!!



Wow....

FBD.

Marty

Excellent stuff. Love the portaloo's in the background, a welcome addition and change from the usual caravan park !

Can't recall when I made the comment to Tony about it being the best green in Scotland, possibly when we were sitting in the Jigger nursing a pint which might explain the hyperbole. Certainly its as good as any that I've seen in my limited travels although some of the greens at Duff House Royal come close.

Paul/Sean,

Great discussion. I tend to side with Paul as I believe that over the best part of a hundred years most courses have had a lot more tinkering than we might imagine. I have a cartoon somewhere from Golf Illustrated from the time which mocks wildly undulating greens, and the new green at Hoylake (I think) in particular.

Niall

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