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Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2010, 08:39:57 PM »
Melvyn,

In answer to the original OT question, because sometimes their posts warrant criticizing. Ironically, you are a primary example of this. I'm not criticizing you now, but merely using the most abundant example.

When someone tries to hijack a thread by posting opinions which are largely irrelevant to the TOPIC AT HAND, then they deserve criticism. No one appreciates spam emails and no one here appreciates spam posts. Your posts have been spam because a debate isn't started when you post. No one has strong feelings opposite yours so no debate is started. This is a discussion board, but those of us here are looking for discussion that leads to  further knowledge. If someone tells you the sky is blue 1000 times, what do you gain from those last 999 times?

I understand you are trying to make your voice heard, but for god's sake we hear it! Perhaps a thread of your own regarding the importance of walking in the game of golf would do some good. I'm sure you would hear less criticism.

You have a lot to contribute to this site beside your passion for golf as it was meant to be. We've had a wonderful debate on the importance a designer's role in the ideal golf course, and you have provided some amazing information regarding St. Andrews and the importance your family has had at the home of golf.

When people criticize they are in objection to your post, not necessarily your opinion. And if they state otherwise it is probably out of frustration from having to repeatedly ask you to stay on-topic. While walking v. carts is important in GCA, it's not something that needs to be addressed in every thread. Maybe go here to educate more people: http://www.golfcartsforum.com/

I hope I've interpreted the topic of this thread correctly,

Alex


P.S. It's disappointing that you are able to stand by what you preach on here all the time, but you can't ever admit fault, particularly in your choice of words.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2010, 09:44:55 PM »

Alex

On quite a few threads I have stated that I am no one of importance, that I am an average bloke, so I get somethings right and many wrong. I have no magic answer to the problems of the world or golf.

In my life I have had the opportunity to meeting some wonderful, highly experienced people in their own fields of business thanks to my father and uncle. From listening to them it has kick started many interests from history to application of many products and processes. Having also met and mixed with many Nationalities during my younger years I found that I am open to change and conservation. Yet at heart I am no better or worse than the majority of my fellow humans.

On GCA.com I have made errors and comments that I have gone back on-line to make an unconditionally apology. I have not wished others ill or dead, minimised the use of bad language and when I have been insulted I try and respond as an adult with a cool mind. No I am not Mr Wonderful just an ordinary guy with a little spirit and passion for certain things.

Nevertheless do not think of me as weak or soft. As ‘The Bruce’ who learnt persistence from the little spider, we too observe the same customs of try, try and try again until we have achieved our aims. A Scottish thing, I believe. I will not be driven off this site but will go when officially requested

You have a mind, use it to form your own opinions of me and not on the back of others.

Melvyn

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2010, 10:09:41 PM »

Alex

On quite a few threads I have stated that I am no one of importance, that I am an average bloke, so I get somethings right and many wrong. I have no magic answer to the problems of the world or golf.

In my life I have had the opportunity to meeting some wonderful, highly experienced people in their own fields of business thanks to my father and uncle. From listening to them it has kick started many interests from history to application of many products and processes. Having also met and mixed with many Nationalities during my younger years I found that I am open to change and conservation. Yet at heart I am no better or worse than the majority of my fellow humans.

On GCA.com I have made errors and comments that I have gone back on-line to make an unconditionally apology. I have not wished others ill or dead, minimised the use of bad language and when I have been insulted I try and respond as an adult with a cool mind. No I am not Mr Wonderful just an ordinary guy with a little spirit and passion for certain things.

Nevertheless do not think of me as weak or soft. As ‘The Bruce’ who learnt persistence from the little spider, we too observe the same customs of try, try and try again until we have achieved our aims. A Scottish thing, I believe. I will not be driven off this site but will go when officially requested

You have a mind, use it to form your own opinions of me and not on the back of others.

Melvyn


Melvyn,

That's all well and good. I never questioned your character, merely your word choice. And I have my own opinion of you, but it doesn't really matter as long as we communicate in thought provoking discussion like adults. Now to steer this thread back toward its topic, do you have any insight or thoughts on the reasons I provided for the criticism you receive. But remember, when warranted criticism is anything but bad. I have offered some constructive solutions for the criticism you yourself are feeling, but I'd also like to hear your ideas.

Andy Troeger

Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2010, 10:29:36 PM »
Ben,
I don't think Pebble Beach was a good example for your argument. I played the course without staying at the resort and happily walked and carried my bag. The golf course easily stands on its own merit architecturally, at least in my opinion. I'm going to Bandon for the first time in March and look forward to making the comparison, but anything ahead of Pebble is great indeed.


so why do we still have guys criticising others instead of discussing the topic posted?

Melvyn

Melvyn,
To be fair I only skim the majority of your posts these days, but I've found that you criticize other posters as frequently as just about any poster in the past five years on this website.  I'm all for discussing the topic posted, but I'd advise you to consider your own methods too.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2010, 10:35:02 PM »
I am just an average bloke, but I find it difficult to believe that "golf charts" conspired to " invade" OUR game.  I was taught that golfers brought the carts to OUR game because they were sick and tired of walking up and down hill and dale while chasing a little white ball and they believed in evolution.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2010, 10:53:21 PM »
...they were sick and tired of walking up and down hill and dale while chasing a little white ball...

AKA weak and soft, and weak of soul. If they didn't like the game, then why didn't they take up bowling and leave golf to those that appreciate its true nature?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2010, 10:55:42 PM »
  An exerpt from the recent interview with Ian Dalzell . . .

 
10. How is the golf service business different in the United States than Northern Ireland?

There is no doubt about it – the golf business in the US is a SERVICE business, whereas in Northern Ireland and other parts of Britain it is all about the business of GOLF.  The best way to describe it is to give an example of the average day of a golfer in each country and I hope you will understand my tongue is firmly in my cheek as I try to enhance this example to get my point across.  The Ireland golfer arrives at the club, parks his own car, goes to the locker room and gets his own bag out of the locker, puts on his shoes that maybe haven’t seen polish for a while (no locker room attendants in Ireland), slings his bag on his shoulder, pops his head in the shop to say hello to the pro and let him know he is going out to play and off he goes.  When he finishes his round he cleans his own clubs and shoes, puts them back in the locker and heads upstairs for a cold pint with his foursome.  All in all he only came into contact with the Golf Pro and a bartender . . . seems pretty simple really.  American golfer, once successfully navigating his way through the gate with guard house, pulls up at the bag drop, where he is greeted by an Outside Services Associate with an earpiece who has already been informed of his arrival by the Guardhouse employee.  He steps out of his car, which is then promptly parked by the Outside Services Associate and his clubs are placed on a cart, which may or may not have his name on it.  He heads to the locker room where the attendant greets him and tends to his needs for the day.  From there the American golfer heads to the Grille to get a cold Gatorade and maybe half a sandwich from the waitress.  Next up is the range where balls have been set up for his convenience, and after a 30-minute warm up he heads to the tee with his trusted caddie.  After 4-holes a beverage carts appears to quench the thirst of the golfer, greeted and tended to by the Beverage Cart attendant.  She will visit on up to 4 occasions during the round, so a cold drink is never too far away.  After the round, the American golfer has his clubs cleaned by the caddie and placed in the car by the bag drop staff.  He heads to the locker room where he meets the afternoon shift locker room attendant who promptly cleans off his shoes and invites him to take a hot shower or steam.  After that the visit to the Grille for a cold drink is a must, and as he leaves the staff will bring his car to the front door and wave him off.  All in all the American golfer may have come into contact with service personnel at least (12) times during his day, which is why SERVICE is what drives American golf.  In Europe the focus is squarely on the golf.  A huge difference in cultures.

11. Given the state of private golf in America, are there some ‘less is more’ principles from the United Kingdom that we should adopt on this side of the Atlantic?

Well, that’s kind of a loaded question, but yes, I would think many private clubs in the US could learn from the British model.  As you look at the structure of clubs in the US, there are so many “trimmings” included in an effort to keep up with the Jones’s.  Valet parking, elaborate refreshment stations, Pro V1 balls on the driving range, custom bag tags and custom-labeled bottle water – you get the idea.  Several of these “extras” are not really necessary and could be trimmed without sacrificing the “golf experience”.  Now onto the maintenance – call it the Augusta syndrome or whatever you want, but fast greens cost money, and we are all guilty I think if wanting faster, firmer greens.  I recently played 6 Open Championship courses in Scotland and I’m not sure that any of the greens were more than about 9 on the stimpmeter.  It did not deter from my enjoyment of the round at all, but the problem is that golfers today with play the “comparison card” and frequently compare the speed of “our” greens to the speed of “their greens”.  It makes it very difficult for course owners and operators to slow things down and reduce the frequency of double cutting, rolling or use of growth regulators when the next door neighbor is doing all of those things.  I just don’t see it changing any time soon, because now more than ever clubs need to separate themselves from the competition.   The other area of maintenance that to me has gotten out of hand is the roughs or perimeters of the course.  Clubs have wall to wall cut roughs, and that is labor intensive and is costs valuable dollars to keep it alive, spray it, and groom it.  The comparable courses in Britain do not spend this money on their roughs – the name gives it away and should dictate how it plays.  Lastly, the bunkering – smoothing, daily raking, checking depth of sand etc etc.  Bunkers should probably be raked out once to twice a week and the rest of the time the responsibility falls on the shoulders of the player to treat the golf course with respect.  The PGA Tour players have spoiled it for everyone as they yell “get in the bunker” because they know they will have a perfect lie.  Now that’s not what I call a hazard!"


   The point is . . .   each country has it's own way of doing things.  In computer speak, Scotland is 1.0, Ireland 1.1, England, 1.2,   maybe American golf is Golf  1.4 .

 Australia is 1.3.
 Where is Japan?
 Brazil?
 

  Would the non-golf-business golfer like to see simpler golf again?  Probably.  But it's a speculative business model here in America and with accountants involved in managing a business, there will be nasty, non-puritan decisions made for the game and its playing fields.

  Melvin, I applaud you fighting the Quixotic battle and I'd say that you've made the sale ! but doubt that anybody wants a radio that only plays one song in their new car.  

  Love over gold !  Onward Rocinante'

  
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 10:50:30 AM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2010, 12:15:27 AM »
Slag, can you explain the 1.0 - 1.4 stuff. My experience as a golfer doesn't gel with what I think you mean by that, but I may have interpreted it incorrectly.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2010, 12:28:36 AM »
George,

I must admit that I took some liberties in having some fun with my keyboard there.  In the end, however, the message is clear.  1)  Melvyn, we get it.  You hate what the modern game has become for a majority of golfers--especially in America.  2)  There is a growing faction of well-liked, level-headed individuals that also agrees with many of your posts yet are numbed and indifferent to their incessancy.  3)  Can we dispense with the horse-kicking and move on?

GCA.com is primarily a website of devoted golfers that pursue a much different idea of golf than the average golfer of any society.  To continue to preach incessantly to those that agree with you--some of the time--is nothing more than annoyance after a few years.

I love walking.  I walk most of the time.  I use a sprinkler heads, enjoy a beer on the course occasionally.  I wish all my rounds of golf were like the one's I've had at Bandon or Ballyneal or a host of other walking-only, "traditional" golf experiences.  It simply isn't that way for most golfers and never will be again.  Can we please move on?

+1
It's all about the golf!

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2010, 01:41:56 AM »
It's not Melvyn's message that is the problem

Bill,

I might repsectfully disagree with this one.  I think that Melvyn's message is a problem to me.  For someone who implores others to stay on topic, most of his posts are either unrelated to golf clourse architecture, or dance around the periphery of golf course architecture with issues such as golf carts, equipment and the traditions of the game. 

At the heart of golf course architecture are the strategies of golf holes, the routing of the golf course, the creation of challenging green complexes, and the aesthetics of the golf course.  These broad areas make up 90% of Golf Course architecture and I can't remember Melvyn comentating on them more than a handful of times over the years. 

Most of the British posters on this site seem incredibly nice and polite.  Their posts are charming and informative but in general lack the passion and critical eye that Melvyn shows.  It is a pity, to me, that Melvyn's passion is not directed at the primary issues of GCA because it is an area of the market that is lacking IMO. 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 01:54:47 AM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #60 on: December 05, 2010, 03:28:44 AM »
 An exerpt from the recent interview with Ian Dalzell . . .

 
10. How is the golf service business different in the United States than Northern Ireland?

There is no doubt about it – the golf business in the US is a SERVICE business, whereas in Northern Ireland and other parts of Britain it is all about the business of GOLF.  The best way to describe it is to give an example of the average day of a golfer in each country and I hope you will understand my tongue is firmly in my cheek as I try to enhance this example to get my point across.  The Ireland golfer arrives at the club, parks his own car, goes to the locker room and gets his own bag out of the locker, puts on his shoes that maybe haven’t seen polish for a while (no locker room attendants in Ireland), slings his bag on his shoulder, pops his head in the shop to say hello to the pro and let him know he is going out to play and off he goes.  When he finishes his round he cleans his own clubs and shoes, puts them back in the locker and heads upstairs for a cold pint with his foursome.  All in all he only came into contact with the Golf Pro and a bartender . . . seems pretty simple really.  American golfer, once successfully navigating his way through the gate with guard house, pulls up at the bag drop, where he is greeted by an Outside Services Associate with an earpiece who has already been informed of his arrival by the Guardhouse employee.  He steps out of his car, which is then promptly parked by the Outside Services Associate and his clubs are placed on a cart, which may or may not have his name on it.  He heads to the locker room where the attendant greets him and tends to his needs for the day.  From there the American golfer heads to the Grille to get a cold Gatorade and maybe half a sandwich from the waitress.  Next up is the range where balls have been set up for his convenience, and after a 30-minute warm up he heads to the tee with his trusted caddie.  After 4-holes a beverage carts appears to quench the thirst of the golfer, greeted and tended to by the Beverage Cart attendant.  She will visit on up to 4 occasions during the round, so a cold drink is never too far away.  After the round, the American golfer has his clubs cleaned by the caddie and placed in the car by the bag drop staff.  He heads to the locker room where he meets the afternoon shift locker room attendant who promptly cleans off his shoes and invites him to take a hot shower or steam.  After that the visit to the Grille for a cold drink is a must, and as he leaves the staff will bring his car to the front door and wave him off.  All in all the American golfer may have come into contact with service personnel at least (12) times during his day, which is why SERVICE is what drives American golf.  In Europe the focus is squarely on the golf.  A huge difference in cultures.

  

If there is any truth at all in this then it makes me very glad that I live in the British Isles! How do you guys afford it all, if nothing else?

It is indeed a deep cultural difference. Most Brits hate valet parking, hate having their bags carried to their room in a hotel, and hate subservient waiters working for a tip.

We don't generally feel the need to have our self-confidence massaged and pampered...

 ;D
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 08:42:46 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

TEPaul

Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2010, 04:39:29 AM »
"There was a cull, some 300 left...."


300 more, 300 less, it makes not a jot of difference!



Welcome to the glorious world of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com's DG------where every day is like a Friday night barroom brawl in Dodge City right after the cowboys got paid (and after just another day on the range culling more or less 300 dumb-ass cows).

Melvyn Morrow

Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2010, 04:48:57 AM »


Duncan

Well said, I totally agree with you perhaps with the exception of the last line. After each post I certainly could do with some pampering, and a little love and consideration would not hurt either. ;)


David

I believe that I have been deeply involved with discussing GCA on this site. From Land fit for purpose, to the track, hiding the tracks wear and tear of the course. I have in general been a great supporter of Ian (Andrews) comments in his many points on environmental implications not to mention financial, subjects along the lines of brown courses, water storage and island Greens. Strategic is the order of the modern designer but we have lost the penal counterpart with my hated shallow bunkers.

I believe that I have discussed many GCA subjects on this site some direct with Tom Doaks.

I agree I am not there talking about MY Top 10 50 or 10 clubs, because each to his own when it comes to courses, nor am I interested in over complicating the subject. I have asked questions directly to designers for their input but alas only one of two bother responding. As for primary issues I thought cart paths are one major problem that need to be addressed more so in hiding the tracks and the problem that adds to the budget, the course and each and every individual hole. It is at the heart of the design, not all of it but its there.

Perhaps we need the designers on this site to offer more, in the format of their opinions on this or that and yes on their thoughts on having to include carts.

I would love to be able just to post historical topics alone

Melvyn

Anthony Gray

Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2010, 07:13:05 AM »


    Are we talking about making the 1st and 18th fairway wider at TOC?

   Anthony


Melvyn Morrow

Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2010, 08:36:04 AM »
Alas, poor Yorick Anthony! I knew him, Horatio Guys: a fellow
of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy: he hath borne me on his back a thousand times


No Sorry Anthony, it’s not TOC although it should be the widening of our minds

Melvyn


Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Melvyn Morrow

Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2010, 09:40:44 AM »


Jud

Two can play that game but golf allows the game to be just as interesting with one - golf is my game.

http://www.livestrong.com/video/1730-ignore-obnoxious-child/

Melvyn

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2010, 12:12:57 PM »
Only one button on Melvyn's clicker:

Repeat.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2010, 12:31:04 PM »
With reference to the Ian Dalzell piece, one should search the Golf Digest articles written by Dan Jenkins back in the late 1960s; its title was "Do Shower Slippers Make the Difference.' It was a riot.

I must say that the layers of Staff handling clubs at each stage of the journey from car trunk and back is a beastly experience. Handing out dollar bills for having a dirty rag dragged over the clubs and the fawning one gets from the car parl attendant is worse. But does this happen at private clubs in general?


Bob    

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2010, 12:36:09 PM »
While Slag's post is entertaining, that level of service applies to what, a shrinking 1% of American golf clubs?

Much more common is the typical muni experience where you find a parking spot, change your shoes in the parking lot, haul your clubs over to the pro shop where you pay your fee, make a decision whether or not to ride, agreed hopefully walk, and then hit a few putts before teeing off.

What that quote speaks is the "Country Club For a Day" which was never a high percentage of accessible courses and is losing steam in today's economy.

I really wish Melvyn would get off his ass and come over here for a visit, and take a non- biased look at what golf here is like here in the majority.  Yes, carts are a regrettable part of our experience, but it's optional most everywhere.

I realize this doesn't fit his utopian vision, but it's what it is.

For what it's worth, I wish I could play a links course in the UK or Ireland every day, but that won't happen for many of us.  


Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2010, 12:42:11 PM »
does this happen at private clubs in general?
 

Not in England!

Ian Dalzell's description of a golfer simply sticking his head round the pro-shop door to give a courtesy 'Hello' before walking to the first tee with his clubs over his shoulder is an accurate account of life at a typical private club here.

Hell, lots of us don't even go near the locker room, changing our shoes in the car park instead!

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2010, 04:01:01 PM »
does this happen at private clubs in general?
 

Not in England!

Ian Dalzell's description of a golfer simply sticking his head round the pro-shop door to give a courtesy 'Hello' before walking to the first tee with his clubs over his shoulder is an accurate account of life at a typical private club here.

Hell, lots of us don't even go near the locker room, changing our shoes in the car park instead!


Duncan,

Changing shoes in the car park is discouraged at many clubs here in the USA.

Bob

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2010, 04:10:55 PM »
does this happen at private clubs in general?
 


Changing shoes in the car park is discouraged at many clubs here in the USA.

Bob

What % of American courses are private?  At many of those, car park shoe changing is okay, and okay at all publics. So how many, 90%?

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2010, 04:18:08 PM »
Duncan,

Changing shoes in the car park is discouraged at many clubs here in the USA.

Bob
[/quote]

Where in the USA?

Our club has never discouraged that, and with on-line tee times, you don't even need to speak with anyone.

Of course, service of all types is available to all those who require it, LOL

Private club management is very difficult in our wacky society, fwiw.
It's all about the golf!

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: There was a cull, some 300 left....
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2010, 04:22:47 PM »
By the same token, changing your shoes in the carpark is not the done thing at most proper golf clubs in the UK.

It's important to compare like with like. Going by my experiences, the UK vs US comparison posted in this thread is grossly incorrect on both sides of the pond.

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