[Bill_McBride]

To paraphrase Christopher Walken:

"I need more Melvyn.  I've got a fever, and the only prescription is -- more Melvyn!"

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bob

So you are saying that some of the histories on the war are wrong. I was not there so I have only mentioned what was printed, clearly your opinion on this site has more authority than some of the printed words.

I shall leave it there as I see vultures circulating high in the skies and as I am not a hostage seeking rescue I will not attract their attention. Hell, would hate to be another Scot killed by friendly fire.

Melvyn

[John Mayhugh]

So you are saying that some of the histories on the war are wrong. I was not there so I have only mentioned what was printed, clearly your opinion on this site has more authority than some of the printed words.

Pakenham's The Boer War includes this passage:
Ten months after the subject had first been raised in Parliament, Lloyd-George's taunts and CB's harsh words at the Holborn Restaurant had been vindicated. In the interval, at least twenty thousand whites and twelve thousand coloured people had died in the concentration camps, the majority from epidemics of measles and typhoid that could have been avoided.

That's 32,000 deaths. 

Which book(s) are you referencing?

[Tim_Cronin]

Happy Holidays, everybody!

Eagles and birdies to all!

[mike_beene]

we are collectively the luckiest people in the history of the world.Take a step back and appreciate it.

[Adam_F_Collins]

Weird.

I drifted off in a similar thread involving Melvyn a year or two ago...  I just woke for a moment and it still appears to be pretty much as it was...

Like a soap opera, you can leave it and come back whenever you feel like it, and it's almost like you were never away.

snore.

[Garland Bayley]

Alex

My post on St Andrew Day was an early morning bit of fun. ...

How does anyone not see that? He used smileys, the whole nine yards. 

[Norbert P]

                                

   Boys and girls, listen and sing along with Ren and Stimpy at. . .     http://www.bitstorm.org/happyjoy/

  and get your very own free decoder ring and a bar of soap.

[Melvyn Morrow]

What’s weird is that GCA has become an associated subject on this site. Those items that reflect GCA do not seem worthy of debating because the majority CANNOT or DO NOT want to play the game in its traditional way.

I am accused of being repetitive, of being boring, yes I may well be because that is the nature of the Game and the process of try to get things changed. However the reaction I see is one of total lack of commitment to the game not on my behalf but on yours. I would to see in its traditional ways as it is played in the Open and the other Major, after all that was  the game played as it was when it left our shores to be embraced by each country in the world. The game of golf which is a Walking & Thinking Game. The Golden Ages produced great courses and holes, however not one was designed to be anything less than a Walking Course.

I have been to India, Africa, South America and many other tropical countries where the commitment to the game of golf was still played in the tradition way of Walking and Thinking. I buried my father in Africa (he died walking down the fairway after a great Tee shot). I understand hot, humid and very dry dust conditions having played golf in these conditions but always walked. There is no alternative if you are a golfer

Golf is an active game, from Tee shot to the Green. The physical pressure from the swing be it a Tee or fairways shots, not to mention bunkers shots can place major pressure on one’s heart and back. These modern toys are just a distraction, they take away from the quality of the round, of judgement, of accuracy and impede  on the design of the course, forcing the designer into additional major thoughts and considerations as to placement (hidden where possible) of the cart track). It’s not a quick overnight design fix, they play a major part to the initial design procedure (that’s been mentioned on here - GCA.com). Then there is the extra costs to the project, the purchase of said toys, that’s even before a cent is taken in Green Fees. Its additional cost, cost and cost, the time, plus the after sales maintenance of carts and the course -  OK so you charge for the toys but the returns are not immediately forthcoming.

And for what reason, because someone wants to build a course wherever he wishes, irrespective of suitability, of the land, for the quality of the game and lastly for the health and safety of us poor human in the local community.  Perhaps someone should decide that if the land cannot sustain a golf course by itself unattended for at least 6 months then it should not be built in that location. When you learn that golf is not all about money you may start to understand the game itself.

To take a great game like golf and try and reduce its quality because certain players just can’t be bothered to honour the spirit or the commitment the game requires from each player, speaks volumes 
about the calibre of those players.

Medical or physical reasons should be the only reasons to vary the rules of the game.

Melvyn

[Norbert P]

What’s weird is that GCA has become an associated subject on this site. Those items that reflect GCA do not seem worthy of debating because the majority CANNOT or DO NOT want to play the game in its traditional way. . . .

 . . . To take a great game like golf and try and reduce its quality because certain players just can’t be bothered to honour the spirit or the commitment the game requires from each player, speaks volumes  
about the calibre of those players.

Medical or physical reasons should be the only reasons to vary the rules of the game.

Melvyn

    I'm in your corner, Melvin.     Obviously, pure golf is deeper in your system than most of ours.   A different culture, a different era. A Zen approach as opposed to a game or arts and crafts approach.   Keep up the fight.       Slainte'  Slag of Oregon


  (Perhaps some get angry because deep down, they know you're right.)

[Bill_McBride]

What’s weird is that GCA has become an associated subject on this site. Those items that reflect GCA do not seem worthy of debating because the majority CANNOT or DO NOT want to play the game in its traditional way. . . .

 . . . To take a great game like golf and try and reduce its quality because certain players just can’t be bothered to honour the spirit or the commitment the game requires from each player, speaks volumes  
about the calibre of those players.

Medical or physical reasons should be the only reasons to vary the rules of the game.

Melvyn

    I'm in your corner, Melvin.     Obviously, pure golf is deeper in your system than most of ours.   A different culture, a different era. A Zen approach as opposed to a game or arts and crafts approach.   Keep up the fight.       Slainte'  Slag of Oregon


  (Perhaps some get angry because deep down, they know you're right.)

It's not Melvyn's message that is the problem, I think you are right that in our hearts we would all like to walk every round.

The problem is the Chinese water torture (I guess that's what is today called "waterboarding") of the repetitive, never-ending message.

For Melvyn to say "What’s weird is that GCA has become an associated subject on this site. Those items that reflect GCA do not seem worthy of debating because the majority CANNOT or DO NOT want to play the game in its traditional way." is rather bizarre.  There is a tremendous amount of discussion of GCA on this site, but apparently it's not real GCA unless it meets MHM's personal standards.

Unfortunately there is a big world out there and not all or even much of it conforms to Melvyn's vision.  But all his posts take to task those who don't completely agree with his narrow vision and that's when things go downhill.

I walked some golf courses in SE Asia in 1966 - one of the advantages of serving on a destroyer instead of in a foxhole - because there weren't carts yet.  I suspect that today at Wack Wack, Baguio and Kaoshung there are golf carts.  It may be regrettable but it's evolutionary.

[John Kavanaugh]

Melvyn,

If you would leave the sanctum of your lair you would discover the world is full of douche bags.   

[Ben Sims]

Melvyn,

As someone who has studied quite extensively in the tactical execution of strategic vision, please let me lend my services.  

Osama Bin Laden might be one of the most brilliant military minds of the modern era for two reasons.  1)  He used enemy reaction as his preferred way of gathering intel on his enemy and 2) never based his organization's logistical reliance on one faction.  Simply, he probed for intel, and danced with all comers--never going home with any.  I think you would do well to do the same.  Here is your game-plan.

1)  You seem to be doing well in this respect.  In the past six months, I haven't read a single post of yours that didn't decry carts and/or the American bastardization of your game.  If your goal has been to identify your enemy's response time to attack and assess the time it takes for their command and control structure to OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide, Act), you've succeeded.  

2) This is where I think you're missing the boat.  Bin Laden has been a genius at getting multiple state and non-state actors to support his idea of the Caliphate.  Publicly, no government would ever acknowledge this.  But concrete evidence suggests that in an extremely paradoxical turn of events, government actors (namely Iran, Syria, Pakistan) have supported Al Qaeda--logistically--to destabilize western power.  Even if they don't support the Bin Laden ideal of the Caliphate--theoretically Caliphate would call for an end to sovereign government--they support his hatred of the west.  So here's how we approach point #2.

a) Get a mole over in Augusta, GA to infiltrate Club Car.  Learn how they market the product and to whom.  Pricing, seating arrangements, speed, cup-holder capacity, etc.  Get the intel.  

b) Get yourself stateside and visit the single biggest customer of Club Car.  Play their course, ride a cart.  Think of it as getting to know the enemy.  Ask questions to other cart users, have an American beer even!  Just try to find all things you hate about the whole day and magnify it times 10.

c)  After getting the intel, make a pitch to any and all users of said carts that you can find.  Be a traveling salesman.  Your pitch?  8000 yard ribbons of steroid induced super grass with intersecting cart paths, bikini clad beer girls, filet mignon stand at the turn, flat greens that stimp a 16, and Tiger Woods posters at every tee.  Sell the hell out of it.

d)  Use said money to start a website called CartClubAtlas.com  Once all of your enemies here leave this site and member up over there, you can go back to talking about Golf Architecture and its charms, which you seemed to do a lot before all the heinous cart-ballers showed up over here.  

In the end.  We are all a winner!  Club Car gets to sell more devil's contraptions, more stupid Americans will be playing the new "Cart Ball" sport invented by Melvin Morrow, and you can make an appearance every now and then at CartClubAtlas.com to keep your sponsor's happy.  Secretly you'll know that even though Club Car and other cart ballers have funded you--much like the US did the Mujahadeen in the 80's--you are on the right side and would never really believe in the growth of golf.  
 

[George Pazin]

1)  You seem to be doing well in this respect.  In the past six months, I haven't read a single post of yours that didn't decry carts and/or the American bastardization of your game.

With all due respect - and I say that not facetiously, I really mean it - read Melvyn's original post in this thread.

There was a cull, some 300 left....so why do we still have guys criticising others instead of discussing the topic posted?

Melvyn

It makes no reference to carts or the American bastardization of the game, it asks a simple and pointed question about etiquette and style on a discussion board. If anyone other than Melvyn had posted this, it would have either been ignored, or a handful of people would have attempted to answer the question in some manner.

Instead, we have posters ON A DISCUSSION BOARD telling Melvyn to shut the hell up. That is flat out ground for an immediate suspension of posting privileges, imho. If you are not capable of discussion with people who disagree with you, even vehemently or aggressively, you have ZERO business posting on a discussion site, again imho.

Allusions to Hitler and concentration camps are foolish, and do more to hurt the position of someone who brings them up, but that does not change the above facts, again imho. Neither does a continued position against carts or even the so-called American bastardization of the game (something I disagree with greatly, in fact).

The fact that anyone needs to point this out, and is then called an apologist for doing so, is flat out pathetic, I don't care who says it.

I have been in many many angry arguments on here (too many in fact, I'm embarrassed of each and every one) and witnessed an even greater number of them. I just don't see where it's anyone other than Ran or Ben's place to tell someone to shut the hell up, other than if someone is perhaps posting outright lies about them.

[Ben Sims]

George,

I must admit that I took some liberties in having some fun with my keyboard there.  In the end, however, the message is clear.  1)  Melvyn, we get it.  You hate what the modern game has become for a majority of golfers--especially in America.  2)  There is a growing faction of well-liked, level-headed individuals that also agrees with many of your posts yet are numbed and indifferent to their incessancy.  3)  Can we dispense with the horse-kicking and move on?

GCA.com is primarily a website of devoted golfers that pursue a much different idea of golf than the average golfer of any society.  To continue to preach incessantly to those that agree with you--some of the time--is nothing more than annoyance after a few years.

I love walking.  I walk most of the time.  I use a sprinkler heads, enjoy a beer on the course occasionally.  I wish all my rounds of golf were like the one's I've had at Bandon or Ballyneal or a host of other walking-only, "traditional" golf experiences.  It simply isn't that way for most golfers and never will be again.  Can we please move on?

[John Kavanaugh]

I personally don't see any value in Melvyn or his opinions but at least when I talk to him I don't smell like I just visited a nursing home.  

[John Kavanaugh]

GCA.com is primarily a website of devoted golfers that pursue a much different idea of golf than the average golfer of any society.  To continue to preach incessantly to those that agree with you--some of the time--is nothing more than annoyance after a few years.

That use to be true, now it is just the poseur position.  All of my golfing friends want the exact same thing as the majority of people on this site. 

[Ben Sims]

GCA.com is primarily a website of devoted golfers that pursue a much different idea of golf than the average golfer of any society.  To continue to preach incessantly to those that agree with you--some of the time--is nothing more than annoyance after a few years.

That use to be true, now it is just the poseur position.  All of my golfing friends want the exact same thing as the majority of people on this site. 

I'd say it is leaning that direction.  But ask the majority of folks in the US that play golf.  Most would still want to go to Pebble before Bandon.  I'd also say that that specific question is just as good an indicator as any to what stereotypical American golfers want. 

[John Kavanaugh]

GCA.com is primarily a website of devoted golfers that pursue a much different idea of golf than the average golfer of any society.  To continue to preach incessantly to those that agree with you--some of the time--is nothing more than annoyance after a few years.

That use to be true, now it is just the poseur position.  All of my golfing friends want the exact same thing as the majority of people on this site. 

I'd say it is leaning that direction.  But ask the majority of folks in the US that play golf.  Most would still want to go to Pebble before Bandon.  I'd also say that that specific question is just as good an indicator as any to what stereotypical American golfers want. 

Which delusion of youth do you base your facts on.  If your friends are the other young Golfweek raters on this board then I suggest you do an informal poll at rater camp when someone starts passing around the comp peace pipe.  Your argument is full of blue smoke.

[Ben Sims]

GCA.com is primarily a website of devoted golfers that pursue a much different idea of golf than the average golfer of any society.  To continue to preach incessantly to those that agree with you--some of the time--is nothing more than annoyance after a few years.

That use to be true, now it is just the poseur position.  All of my golfing friends want the exact same thing as the majority of people on this site. 

I'd say it is leaning that direction.  But ask the majority of folks in the US that play golf.  Most would still want to go to Pebble before Bandon.  I'd also say that that specific question is just as good an indicator as any to what stereotypical American golfers want. 

Which delusion of youth do you base your facts on.  If your friends are the other young Golfweek raters on this board then I suggest you do an informal poll at rater camp when someone starts passing around the comp peace pipe.  Your argument is full of blue smoke.

I'm not talking about any of my online golf buddies.  I'm talking about my family and work friends and college buddies I play golf with.

[John Kavanaugh]

GCA.com is primarily a website of devoted golfers that pursue a much different idea of golf than the average golfer of any society.  To continue to preach incessantly to those that agree with you--some of the time--is nothing more than annoyance after a few years.

That use to be true, now it is just the poseur position.  All of my golfing friends want the exact same thing as the majority of people on this site. 

I'd say it is leaning that direction.  But ask the majority of folks in the US that play golf.  Most would still want to go to Pebble before Bandon.  I'd also say that that specific question is just as good an indicator as any to what stereotypical American golfers want. 

Which delusion of youth do you base your facts on.  If your friends are the other young Golfweek raters on this board then I suggest you do an informal poll at rater camp when someone starts passing around the comp peace pipe.  Your argument is full of blue smoke.

I'm not talking about any of my online golf buddies.  I'm talking about my family and work friends and college buddies I play golf with.

Sure, but how does wanting to play Pebble make them not as clever as you?

I'll tell you a little story about my youth.

When I first started getting laid I was golfing with a well known ladies man.  In an attempt to sound worldly I said in a flippant manner about how I just don't get the infatuation I used to have with titties.  My much older now dead mentor in debauchery simply said "Yea kid, I know what you mean but they sure are a hell of a nice place to start."

My point being.  Pebble is like a nice set of titties, who is to question why anyone would love to play there.

If you want to make a point tell me something that I can believe in not something you think will make me believe in you.

[Ben Sims]

Sure, but how does wanting to play Pebble make them not as clever as you?

I'll tell you a little story about my youth.

When I first started getting laid I was golfing with a well known ladies man.  In an attempt to sound worldly I said in a flippant manner about how I just don't get the infatuation I used to have with titties.  My much older now dead mentor in debauchery simply said "Yea kid, I know what you mean but they sure are a hell of a nice place to start."

My point being.  Pebble is like a nice set of titties, who is to question why anyone would love to play there.

If you want to make a point tell me something that I can believe in not something you think will make me believe in you.

I don't think one is more clever than another--at least in theory.  For me personally Bandon would be my preference.  But that has little to do with my point. 

The crux of what I was saying involved the difference in experience.  One is more luxury centric, carts if you want them, Carmel, etc.  One is more minimalist both in architecture and amenities. 

I'm not accusing either place as bad or good.  My point was simply that the stereotypical American golfer--not those that opine online about golf and golf courses or raters smoking some comped ganja mind you--probably still perceive Pebble to be the Mecca.  Hence my assumption that American golfers still prefer a more service and luxury approach to what they think is the best.  Not a linksy, walking only resort in Oregon.   

In the end, it is only my online golfing friends that espouse the beliefs that I have about golf courses and the experience therein.  Probably why I hang around here so much.  Those in the other demographics I mentioned couldn't give a hoot about minimalism, firm and fast conditions, contour, variety, etc.  They like drop shots, water, soft/fast greens, cold beer, carts. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

It’s not my version of Golf, Its how golf was played right up to the late 1950’s when the carts started their invasion of OUR game.

It was the game that generated courses like Merion, Myopia TOC Dornoch North Berwick, Augusta. These courses came about from playing golf by Walking and Thinking. These courses came about by designers walking and thinking. BY Designers proud to put their name to their designs.

It’s not my version of golf that set the world alight, it was the version that required walking thinking willingness to accept a challenge and to test ones skill fairly and honestly against real hazards.

But some are so keen to fly the flag that they miss out that I am only talking about a game called Golf, they get their fellow countrymen to support what they think I mean and who also are not slow in wanting to fly the flag. 

It’s Golf, golf does not have a flag.

Melvyn.

[Brian Marion]

It’s not my version of Golf, Its how golf was played right up to the late 1950’s when the carts started their invasion of OUR game.

Melvyn, if you truly feel that way, then blame every all the Scot, Brit and Irish designers and golfers who left your shores and came to America and brought the game here many years ago. Or get mad that the Americas were discovered in the first place.

Things evolve, things change, it's the way of nature. Sometimes, it's not for the best but to fight change is to drive yourself mad. If I hear you correctly, the game should be played with hickory and gutta percha. Anything else is too advanced. (can I still wear my moisture wicking apparel or do I have to go back to wool and a necktie?)

I do think you are confusing the American version of daily fee, public golf and club golf here in the States. Most day in day out private facilities have ample amounts of walkers, of all ages, year round. Case in point, today it was 45 degrees F here today and my course had one cart out and the course was very busy. No one was drinking and walking, they were playing golf, in the cold and wind with spitting snow at times.

Compare that to a daily fee and they were all but closed today I am sure.

[Bob_Huntley]

What’s weird is that GCA has become an associated subject on this site. Those items that reflect GCA do not seem worthy of debating because the majority CANNOT or DO NOT want to play the game in its traditional way. . . .

 . . . To take a great game like golf and try and reduce its quality because certain players just can’t be bothered to honour the spirit or the commitment the game requires from each player, speaks volumes  
about the calibre of those players.

Medical or physical reasons should be the only reasons to vary the rules of the game.

Melvyn

    I'm in your corner, Melvin.     Obviously, pure golf is deeper in your system than most of ours.   A different culture, a different era. A Zen approach as opposed to a game or arts and crafts approach.   Keep up the fight.       Slainte'  Slag of Oregon


  (Perhaps some get angry because deep down, they know you're right.)

Slag,

Of course he is right, but does he have to remind us of his virginal purity ad nauseam?

Bob

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